Taco Bell sued

[Furcifer]

Yes you are.

Are you going to answer the question? Is 88 > 40?

BpbTheDonkey, obvious troll is obvious. OK?

(lolz@ I know you are but what am I)

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Probably, I was thinking it was an Agency, not an Act.

There's just a bunch of agencies in the Us that have their hands in the food game, it's hard to determine who says what, when and to whom. Anyone that says they know because their husband is a cook is a liar.

Says the poster who is unable or cannot take the time to educate him/herself enough to distinguish between the FMIA of 1906 (which was one of the two food regulation acts brought about directly as a result of The Jungle to bring this back full circle to my first posts in this thread) and a Fed Agency.


Is 88 > 40?

 

[Furcifer]

i can't tell if people are being naive or what, but what you cook at home would never fall under the USDA and FTC guidelines.

Just sayin.

 

[Furcifer]

Says the poster who is unable or cannot take the time to educate him/herself enough to distinguish between the FMIA of 1906 (which was one of the two food regulation acts brought about directly as a result of The Jungle to bring this back full circle to my first posts in this thread) and a Fed Agency.

OMG, I made a mistake and thought the FMIA was a body outside the FDA or USDA acting on behalf of the CIA and the RCMP at the request of the FBI for the ROTC?

lol

 

[slingblade]

Probably, I was thinking it was an Agency, not an Act.

There's just a bunch of agencies in the Us that have their hands in the food game, it's hard to determine who says what, when and to whom. Anyone that says they know because their husband is a cook is a liar.

How would the regulation regarding the amount of beef cheek meat that ground beef can contain apply to or affect you as a restaurant cook? Explain this, please.

And if it helps you to feel better about the failure of your argument, you may feel free to call me a liar about things I didn't say. It's not like any of this is in writing, after all, or written here for anyone to see.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

OMG, I made a mistake and thought the FMIA was a body outside the FDA or USDA acting on behalf of the CIA and the RCMP at the request of the FBI for the ROTC?

lol

1) Do you have evidence that USDA labeling guidelines apply to restaurants?

2) Is 88% a reasonable beef content for a product labeled "seasoned ground beef"? If not, what would you consider a reasonable beef content for such a product? What is this based on?

3) Would you agree that as 88 > 40 and Taco Bell's seasoned ground beef contains 88% beef content, that Taco Bell's seasoned ground beef meets the minimum requirement to be labeled taco meat filling and therefore, both labels are accurate? If not, why not?

 

[Furcifer]

1) Do you have evidence that USDA labeling guidelines apply to restaurants?

They don't apply, they are relevant to the FTC making a decision on whether or not someone is being deceptive.

2) Is 88% a reasonable beef content for a product labeled "seasoned ground beef"? If not, what would you consider a reasonable beef content for such a product? What is this based on?

Labeled? No. I don't know, probably around 97% but that's a guess. USDA guidelines.

3) Would you agree that as 88 > 40 and Taco Bell's seasoned ground beef contains 88% beef content, that Taco Bell's seasoned ground beef meets the minimum requirement to be labeled taco meat filling and therefore, both labels are accurate? If not, why not?

No. A product cannot be labeled 2 things under USDA guidelines.

 

[Furcifer]

How would the regulation regarding the amount of beef cheek meat that ground beef can contain apply to or affect you as a restaurant cook? Explain this, please.

And if it helps you to feel better about the failure of your argument, you may feel free to call me a liar about things I didn't say. It's not like any of this is in writing, after all, or written here for anyone to see.

I've never seen cheek meat, although neck meat is used extensively. (OT but I eat pickerel cheeks and cod cheeks all the time, delicious)

I read about 100 different things looking for the damn regulations. There were about 10 different acronyms used in relation to meat and labeling. The other body I was thinking of was probably Customs. Yes, customs has some labeling requirements for food and meat products entering and leaving the country. You couldn't name all of the bodies with their hands in the pot, so why try to make it look like you do? It's a lie.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

They don't apply, they are relevant to the FTC making a decision on whether or not someone is being deceptive.

Evidence?

Labeled? No. I don't know, probably around 97% but that's a guess. USDA guidelines.

Which USDA guidelines? Have you found where the USDA guidelines apply to restaurants?

No. A product cannot be labeled 2 things under USDA guidelines.

What are the USDA labeling requirements for "seasoned ground beef"?

 

[Furcifer]

Sometimes people can be rather dense.

This is very simple. What Taco Bell advertises as "Seasoned Ground Beef" would not meet the USDA guidelines to be labeled as "Seasoned Ground Beef". The fillers and extenders would prohibit the product, raw or cooked, from being labeled anything but "Taco Meat Filling".

Since "seasoned ground beef" isn't "taco meat filling" and "seasoned ground beef" is a superior product, in definition and in people's minds, Taco Bell is being deceptive.

 

[Spindrift]

After playing with the worcestershire sauce in your burgers, you might swap it out for soy sauce or teriyaki sauce for some different flavors.


Oooooh...teriyaki bacon cheeseburger...


starting by frying the bacon in a little teriyaki sauce...

Nothing beats a bacon turtleburger though.
http://thechive.com/2010/02/15/bacon-cheese-turtleburger-anyone-3-photos/

Note: No actual turtles are harmed in the making of bacon turtle burgers. Pigs and cows, not so much.

 

[Furcifer]

Evidence?

How much case law would be enough? I don't have access to journals, but there are plenty of cases cited on the internet I could dig up.

How do you think they come to a determination of deception without looking at the USDA guidelines? Does the Taco Bell lawyer have to wring his hands and laugh manically when he talks about "seasoned ground beef, moo aww aww"?

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Sometimes people can be rather dense.

This is very simple. What Taco Bell advertises as "Seasoned Ground Beef" would not meet the USDA guidelines to be labeled as "Seasoned Ground Beef". The fillers and extenders would prohibit the product, raw or cooked, from being labeled anything but "Taco Meat Filling".

Since "seasoned ground beef" isn't "taco meat filling" and "seasoned ground beef" is a superior product, in definition and in people's minds, Taco Bell is being deceptive.

Do you have the USDA definition of seasoned ground beef? Can you provide evidence that the USDA definition of seasoned ground beef applies to restaurants?

We keep going in these circles because you can't provide evidence to support your assertions.


So here's where your argument fails:

No evidence that the USDA guidelines apply to restaurants

No definition from the USDA regarding seasoned ground beef

Seasoned ground beef from Taco Bell is over 40% beef and has water and preservatives added, which meets the criteria for the meat producer to be required to label it's product taco meat filling. However, you have no evidence that Taco Bell must adhere to that same label in their marketing.

You ignore that a 1oz package of seasoning added to 16oz of ground beef, which is what off-the-shelf taco seasoning works out to, drops the percentage of ground beef to 94%, before adding water. That's less than your guestimate regarding what beef content is reasonable for seasoned ground beef. In fact, it's double the percentage lost to seasoning, before water.

 

[Furcifer]

No evidence that the USDA guidelines apply to restaurants

This is correct. Although I did cite the USDA website that says "retail establishments" cannot, and retail establishments include restaurants.

No definition from the USDA regarding seasoned ground beef

Nope, you're flat out wrong. The USDA determined it's "taco meat filling" not "seasoned ground beef".
You can't argue that, it's a matter of public record and evidenced by the USDA approved label. If it was "seasoned ground beef" that's what the label would say. Otherwise the USDA could force the supplier to change the label to "seasoned ground beef".

 

[Furcifer]

I love how people are arguing the USDA is wrong and they know better than them. That's a laugh. People are trying to use the USDA'a regulation to prove the USDA wrong. It's hysterically funny.

Dear USDA,

It's seasoned ground beef, not taco meat filling. Why do you hate Taco Bell? Leave Taco Bell alone!

Thanks,

JREF

 

[Furcifer]

The interesting question that needs to be answered is "If a lie is repeated in public long enough does it become truth?"

Nobody thinks what Taco Bell sells is "seasoned ground beef". It's been a joke for 20 years at least. Now that it's being questioned people seem to think because Taco Bell tells them it is, despite it being labeled differently it is.

This is why Taco Bell has launched an aggressive ad campaign, if they can convince enough people to believe 88% meat is ground meat, despite the USDA definition, it will in fact become ground meat in the public eye.

 

[JoelKatz]

This is taco meat filling seasoning, not ground beef seasoning. It says so on the label and the USDA approved it as such. If they would have tried to label it "seasoned ground beef" it would never have gotten approval.

Does that make sense to you? You seem like an intelligent person so it should.

Of course, because the label has to be read by people who don't already know it's a taco filling. The label is used for ordering, inventory, and so on. It *must* positively identify the product in a meaningful way.

But if you can see that something is a lollipop, it's not deceptive to describe it as "chocolate". But if you have no idea what something is, it's quite deceptive to describe a chocolate lollipop as "chocolate". That's why these are specifically *labeling* requirements.

Taco Bell does not *label* anything "seasoned ground beef". It *describes* its taco filling as a "seasoned ground beef" taco filling. This is only done in contexts where people already know it's a taco filling, so calling it a "taco filling" would be entirely redundant. The term "seasoned ground beef" accurately describes the taco filling the same way referring to a chocolate lollipop as "chocolate" accurately describes the lollipop to someone who already knows it's a lollipop.

And, in any event, the "oats are not a seasoning" argument that you are making here only matters if the definition of "ground beef" applies. (Nowhere else, except in the one place I cited which specifically mentions oats, is the mix containing oats described as "seasoning".) If it does, then Taco Bell is in violation for adding water. So why even bring the oats up?

The USDA determined it's "taco meat filling" not "seasoned ground beef".

Well, duh. A chocolate lollipop is not a chocolate, it's a lollipop. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with describing it as "chocolate" in a context where it's clear that you're describing the type of lollipop it is.

 

[Furcifer]

Of course, because the label has to be read by people who don't already know it's a taco filling. The label is used for ordering, inventory, and so on.

You obviously have no experience in the real world. Nobody orders anything by the label ingredients. The product number is identified by the barcode. The product description may be just about anything you want and has no bearing on this case. I know it's been brought up, but what Taco Bell calls it in house is irrelevant. They could call it liquid gold for all I care.

The label is a LEGAL requirement of selling a product in the US and Canada. A product cannot be sold without one. It has nothing to do with inventory and so on.

I think this may be why you don't understand. You seem to be thinking the label is a random description of the product (I believe this is called "front of package labeling"). It isn't. In order to sell a product you must send in the ingredients list to the USDA and have it checked against the regulations to ensure it meets the proper labeling requirements. It's all very legal and very precise because it has to be.

Now advertising is a whole other matter. If Taco Bell said they filled their tacos with "liquid gold" there probably wouldn't be an issue. There's no reasonable expectation of it being filled with actual gold, and certainly not in liquid form (that's a hot taco). But when they say it's filled with "seasoned ground beef" there's a distinct impression that it's filled with "seasoned ground beef" and not "taco filling". If this is truly misleading is up to the FTC to decide. They may feel it's a random product description or they may feel it's intended to mislead people into thinking they get real USDA approved "seasoned ground beef".

 

[slingblade]

I've never seen cheek meat, although neck meat is used extensively. (OT but I eat pickerel cheeks and cod cheeks all the time, delicious)

Then if those regulations apply to ground beef as used by a cook, why do they specify something the cook cannot know, and has no control over? If they apply to him or her and the cooking process, why are the regulations so specific about beef cheek meat? The cook is, according to you, supposed to adhere to the part of that paragraph that specifies the ground beef must contain at least 70% flesh, and 30% fat, and no water is to be added. Why then, does the cook also need to know about the sentences immediately following those, regarding beef cheek meat?

Could it be that those regulations apply only to those who process the beef, and so who would know what they're putting in it, and how much?

I read about 100 different things looking for the damn regulations. There were about 10 different acronyms used in relation to meat and labeling.

Yes, and we're all aware you haven't understood as much of what you read as you seem to think you do.

The other body I was thinking of was probably Customs. Yes, customs has some labeling requirements for food and meat products entering and leaving the country.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. One wonders why you bring it up at all.

You couldn't name all of the bodies with their hands in the pot, so why try to make it look like you do?

Can you show me where I made such a claim?

It's a lie.

What is?

 

[JoelKatz]

You obviously have no experience in the real world. Nobody orders anything by the label ingredients. The product number is identified by the barcode. The product description may be just about anything you want and has no bearing on this case. I know it's been brought up, but what Taco Bell calls it in house is irrelevant. They could call it liquid gold for all I care.

I give up. You still don't understand that the "seasoned" in "seasoned ground beef" has *NOTHING* to do with the "seasoning" in the ingredient list. In case it's not obvious to anyone else reading, that's why he misunderstood my argument about the label name to be one about the label ingredients.

In fact, people do buy things based on the label name all the time. I used to own a retail store and vendors would routinely stop by and hand me their current product book. On each line in the book was a product's code number, label name, size, units sold, and price. I would frequently buy items based just on this description. Something like "40002019 - IQF peas, 16oz - $5.92/doz".

Taco Bell does two very different things:

1) They call their taco filling a "seasoned ground beef" taco filling. They only do this in a context where people already know it's a taco filling. The phrase "seasoned ground beef" accurately describes the type of taco filling it is, just like "chocolate" accurately describes a chocolate lollipop to people who already know it's a lollipop -- even though it obviously won't meet the legal labeling definitions for "chocolate".

2) They list the filling's ingredients as beef, water, seasoning, and a few other things. But they only do this in the same place where they clearly disclose that the seasoning contains oats. So there's no deception. You might see "seasoning" and think it wouldn't include extenders like oats. But since it says "oats" just a few words later, no reasonable consumer could be deceived.

You want to somehow link the "seasoned" in "seasoned ground beef" to the "seasoning" in the ingredients. That won't work because, as I explained, "seasoning" something is not the same thing as adding "seasoning" to it. They are two different meanings for the same word (noun and verb). Fishing for something doesn't make it a fish.