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My argument against materialism

I think you have some misunderstanding about what evidence is. Evidence is a fact which is more probable under one hypothesis than another.

There are a distinct shortage of facts which are more probable under theism as it is usually constructed than atheism - the lack of amputees miraculously regrowing their limbs, for example, taken against the plethora of people "miraculously" recovering from diseases from which people sometimes get better of their own accord.

You can of course retreat to a pared-down version of theism which makes no predictions whatsoever, but such versions are unfalsifiable and thus vacuous, and in addition fall immediately afoul of Occam's Razor since they postulate an unnecessary entity.



No it's not. At best it's no more likely or unlikely to be true in the idealist scenario than in the materialist scenario, hence it's not evidence of anything.


If idealism is true and the mind of God is infinite*, then everything we can know through our senses can only be evidence (an expression) of the 'nature' of the mind of God.

Now how does materialism/science deal with the enigma of infinity?

*correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Why would you think you're on ignore? I responded to you in the consciousness thread when you claimed people who woke up during an operation were unconsciously conscious. Or something like that.

Anyway, I agree with your post. Any ontological position is speculative, including strong atheism and materialism.

It depends what you mean by "speculative". Some speculations are better than others.

And mind.

You are now assuming that mind is neither matter nor energy ?
 
FTFY. You're making an unjusitifed assumption that the way things appear to be is how they really are.

It's a more reasonable assumption than the opposite, though.

The evidence doesn't support theism or atheism (strong).

Actually, the lack of evidence for theism is evidence for atheism, where we would expect such evidence.

If idealism is true, if the universe is a projection of god's mind, then every piece of sensory evidence is evidence of god's existence.

That's not idealism, first. And second, that's an unfalsifiable statement.

I shouldn't have to keep reminding skeptics of this crucial bit.

2-bit philosophy will not get you far, here. But then you know this.
 
If idealism is true and the mind of God is infinite*, then everything we can know through our senses can only be evidence (an expression) of the 'nature' of the mind of God.

Now how does materialism/science deal with the enigma of infinity?

*correct me if I'm wrong.

Quite well, what enigma are you thinking of? Basically it just accepts them, science # materialism.
 
Quite well, what enigma are you thinking of? Basically it just accepts them, science # materialism.

Yes, I suppose it must, it cannot prove/disprove infinity.

The enigma I am refering to is the way science or materialism, puts infinity to one side and continues along its path with this elephant in the room staring back at it.
I'm not claiming that mathematics or logic cannot explain aspects of infinity (what I have come across are abstractions), rather in application to the known universe there is a blind spot.
 
*You interpret* the evidence as meaning this, but this is not what the evidence itself says.

I disagree. The universe that seems to exist seems to have existed for billions of years. As we have no evidence of any consciousness that's been around that long, beyond idle speculation, I conclude that the universe exists independent of mind.

Time may be a concept that ermerges out of our consciousness and the "lack" of consciousness in the early universes may just mean we had no physical avatar back then, but nevertheless the cause for it being observable could be our awareness *now*.
Physical time may simply be the attempt of consciousness to make sense of its evolution.

Lots of things "may be". It "may be" that the universe and our memories were created just a few minutes ago, and that the evidence upon which materialistic models are built are a cosmic practical joke. It "may be" that the universe is a playground for immortal minds, created to wile away eternity. It "may be" this, that, or the other thing... Wishful thinking and imagination, however, do not make something so.

The universe is a mystery, but it's a consistent and predictable (within limits) mystery. An evidence-based, materialistic model of the universe that seems to exist seems to work. I don't see what's to be gained by simply making stuff up.

As I said my intention is not me being right and you being wrong, but me understanding what you mean, which could help you to understand what you really mean, too.

I mean that I'm not interested in explanations for which there is no evidence, aside from their entertainment value. My imagination is probably on a par with the next guy's. I could sit around and come up with all kinds of comforting explanations for the existence of the universe and humanity's place in it, but, where the rubber meets the road, I'd just be making stuff up.

I think you are a bit fast with your conclusions and take a bit too much for granted. You know how long your your particular personality has been there as a physical manifest object.
But it may be that consciousness is beyond time and personality and causing them to be perceived.

Sure, it may be. There's the little problem that there is no evidence indicating that this is the case, but it may be.

I'm looking forward to it. :D

:D

No, it indicates a particular expression of consciousness as perceived by others vanishes... But this does not preclude the possibility that you may be ressurected some time later (which I think does not contradict any physical law), or that the informational pattern that corresponds to your personality continues in an other relative environment (that may be largly or completely out of our present reach of communication).

I disagree. There is no compelling evidence that indicates that human consciousness can exist outside a living brain. When the brain goes, so does consciousness. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy sci-fi/fantasy as much as, if not more than, the next guy. I don't, however, believe an explanation simply on the basis of someone having made one up.

Furthermore I don't think we need much evidence to see that consciousness does not end (or rather, that we can not know what this really means). All we need is the subjective certainty "I am conscious" and understand that this can not subjectively change (because the negation of "I am conscious" "I am unconscious" can not be directly experienced).
There seems to be no alternative to "I am conscious and will always be" and if there is no alternative to something, we don't need any additional evidence to conclude it's true.

But there is an alternative: Consciousness has a beginning and an end. If you're aware of evidence to the contrary, I'd be interested in hearing it.

As I recently said to a friend, ontology is a dead end so I go with what works. Unlike our mystic and psychic friends, I make no claims of having special knowledge or secret powers. A materialistic model of the universe that seems to exist seems to work. I have no idea if reality is an illusion or, if it is indeed an illusion, what lies behind it.
 
The enigma I am refering to is the way science or materialism, puts infinity to one side and continues along its path with this elephant in the room staring back at it.
I'm not claiming that mathematics or logic cannot explain aspects of infinity (what I have come across are abstractions), rather in application to the known universe there is a blind spot.
I do not understand the combined use of those metaphors. You're saying we have a blind spot for an elephant in the room? That what is obviously there is fundamentally unknowable?
 
If idealism is true and the mind of God is infinite*, then everything we can know through our senses can only be evidence (an expression) of the 'nature' of the mind of God.

The proposition makes no difference to reality, so what we perceive cannot be evidence for it.
 
This premise is incorrect:

3. Empiricial evidence of something independent of consciousness needs to be independent of consciousness.

All we need to do is consciously perceive something at two different times that is consistent at those two times, but that we were not consciously perceiving in between those two times. What made the thing consistent? Not our consciousness. Therefore there is something independent of our consciousness.

~~ Paul
 
Yes, I suppose it must, it cannot prove/disprove infinity.

The enigma I am refering to is the way science or materialism, puts infinity to one side and continues along its path with this elephant in the room staring back at it.
I'm not claiming that mathematics or logic cannot explain aspects of infinity (what I have come across are abstractions), rather in application to the known universe there is a blind spot.

Excuse me, maybe you need to actually read some physics, it deals with infinity all the time. The universe is believed to be infinite under current constructions.

What issue specifically are you saying isn't addressed?
 
Regarding the premises, like others have pointed out, 2 isn't accurate. I'd like to see some justification for 3:

3. Empiricial evidence of something independent of consciousness needs to be independent of consciousness.
Really? Why.


Some thoughts related to this:

We can't prove logic with logic. These type of arguments, however, only show than you can't obtain knowledge "in the void", philosophically. You need a starting point with some axiomatic assumptions in order to avoid circular arguments.

These type of arguments (we can't prove logic with logic) point to absolute uncertainty. They work against a position of absolute certainty, but are worthless against a position of relative certainty, which is the type of certainty used in critical thinking.
 
Excuse me, maybe you need to actually read some physics, it deals with infinity all the time. The universe is believed to be infinite under current constructions.

What issue specifically are you saying isn't addressed?

Yes, I am aware that there is modeling which deals with infinity. I am not up to date with current constructions, or scientifically accepted definitions of infinity, also my definition may be different.

My issue is with the implications of an actual infinity(or not) upon the nature and development of forms in the known universe. More specifically, there appear to be fundamental principles/laws and forms(atoms)evident in the universe. Can science offer any explanations for the origins/nature of these and compare the difference if any between 'finite' and 'infinite' modeling in relation to these principles/forms.
 
Yes, I am aware that there is modeling which deals with infinity. I am not up to date with current constructions, or scientifically accepted definitions of infinity, also my definition may be different.

My issue is with the implications of an actual infinity(or not) upon the nature and development of forms in the known universe. More specifically, there appear to be fundamental principles/laws and forms(atoms)evident in the universe. Can science offer any explanations for the origins/nature of these and compare the difference if any between 'finite' and 'infinite' modeling in relation to these principles/forms.

Huh? Sorry, I don't follow. You do know that say the Coloumb repulsive force become infinite at zero distance?

Why should the fact that the universe is infinite or not matter upon a scientific descriptions of it?
 
But the important point for me is that subjective survival is a subjective necessity because not surviving is not an experience one can have, so all that remains is the experience of survival. What is wrong with this line of thinking?
It is illogical. The fact that you can't experience not surviving simply means that your experience stops when you stop surviving. You had no experience before you were conceived and you'll have no experience after you are dead. Nothing to worry about, you just won't be around anymore. The fact that you can't experience not existing doesn't make you immortal.

That I have no clue *what* happens after our current physical form dies does not invalidate this.
Of course not - because the reasoning is erroneous from the get-go.

I don't see why it has anything do to with the 1st law of thermodynamics, ...I do not know enough about the 2nd laws of thermodynamics to decide what it means regarding this question.
Never mind, forget I mentioned thermodynamics. Life's too short ;)

Also, we do not need to maintain the informational pattern through time, we can search the space of possible minds until we find one that seems close.
Please explain what you mean by this, how we'd do it, and what we do when we find 'a possible mind that seems close' :wide-eyed

btw what is a 'possible mind'?
 
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