Taco Bell sued

*sigh* And if I walk into one steakhouse, the steak served there will be seasoned differently from steak served at a different steakhouse. Should one or the other not be able to list their steak as seasoned or grilled or whatever because it's not cooked in precisely the same manner with precisely the same ingredients as every other restaurant? That would be absurd, just as your argument with regards to what manner any other restaurant/store/person uses to prepare their taco meat is absurd.

You still don't get that each case is decided on its own merits. I mean, seriously, it is pointless to give examples that use different words and different imagery to describe a different product. It's even more pathetic when it's just an example you pull out of thin air.

You seem hung up on what constitutes seasoning. Just because Taco Bell calls that stuff seasoning doesn't mean it is just like if you call a dog's tail a leg doesn't make it a five-legged dog. So, I'll try to help you understand the thought process a bit better by showing how I would attack the case on behalf of the complainant.

Do seasoning packets one buys in the store contain starches? Yes, they do. Combined with water, it helps the seasoning form a "paste" that sticks to the meat.

Does Taco Bell's seasoning contain starches? Yep.

Does Taco Bell seasoning contain anything else besides starches and "traditional seasonings?" Yes. It contains oats and isolated oat product.

Do grocery store seasoning packets contain these oat products? No.

Does Taco Bell's brand of taco seasoning packets contain oats? No.

Do any of the other Taco Bell products (carne asada, chicken) contain seasonings? Yes.

Do the above contain oats? No.

How is isolated oat product marketed? One listed use is as a meat extender.

If I were to create two versions of taco meat filling, one with oats and isolated oat product and another without, could I visually distinguish the two? No.

In the above, could I distinguish them by flavor? No. The oats are essentially tasteless.

Could I distinguish the texture? Possibly. It would depend on the percentage of oats. It works well as a meat extender for ground beef because it forms a similar texture.

If I used these oat products in, for example, the chicken tacos, would I be able to visually distinguish them? Yes. It would look like pieces of chicken with ground beef interspersed.

At that point I would argue that the "seasoning" for the ground beef is actually a combination of seasoning and meat extender. That would then lead us what I keep saying is the central question: Is that what people would expect to get based on the advertising?

If California decides that its citizens expect seasoned ground beef to not include oats, I would find that reasonable. If they decide that people expect cheap tacos are likely to have extenders in them, I'd be OK with that as well if a bit surprised.

Why would I be surprised? Because Taco Bell tells people to "think outside the bun." The implication is that there's an alternate way to consume hamburgers. The ingredients are similar (beef, cheese, lettuce) with the major difference being the tortilla instead of the bun. If you go looking around at burger places, you will not find them using anything that could remotely be considered a meat extender (oats, texturized vegetable protein). The seasonings sometimes have starches like corn starch or wheat flour, but nothing like oats.

BTW, I'm sorry if I sounded condescending to you a while back. I didn't think you'd notice.
 
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You think that the specific regulations (for taco filling or for ground beef) somehow affect or inform the analysis for whether consumers have been mislead or not. When in fact they are completely separate requirements that have nothing to do with each other.

There are two very separate tests:

1) Did the product violate any specific labeling or content regulations?

2) Does the product labeling mislead consumers in a material way?

You constantly take analysis that only applies to one and apply it to the other.

For example, the specific labeling requirements for ground beef prohibit the addition of water. So if they applied at all in any way, Taco Bell would be violating them simply by adding water to their filling. Unless you want to defend that position, the only alternative is that those specific labeling requirements don't apply at all. This is binary -- they do or they don't. It's called "ground beef" or it's not.

So in this willy nilly world of yours what is used as a sounding board to determine if people are being mislead by product description?
 
1) Did the product violate any specific labeling or content regulations?
If that were at issue, the case would be brought by the appropriate agency under the appropriate regulation. It wouldn't be brought by a consumer.

2) Does the product labeling mislead consumers in a material way?
Yep.

You constantly take analysis that only applies to one and apply it to the other.

For example, the specific labeling requirements for ground beef prohibit the addition of water. So if they applied at all in any way, Taco Bell would be violating them simply by adding water to their filling. Unless you want to defend that position, the only alternative is that those specific labeling requirements don't apply at all. This is binary -- they do or they don't. It's called "ground beef" or it's not.
No. But it's obvious you're not paying attention. Less time posting. More time reading.
 
If that were at issue, the case would be brought by the appropriate agency under the appropriate regulation. It wouldn't be brought by a consumer.

which is why the agency (FTC in this case) hasn't done so. Because there isn't anything wrong with TB's advertising.

The consumer in question has gone silent. He wont provide his test results or where he got the test done; and which restaurant he got his samples from.
 
The consumer in question has gone silent. He wont provide his test results or where he got the test done; and which restaurant he got his samples from.

Ground beef aside, the 36% claim is admittedly suspicious. 15/40 and 36/88 are very similar ratios and suggest the 36% may be the meat content in the taco, not the filling. This may also explain TB's aggressive approach.

I'm not convinced "beef" content is relevant, to the taco or the filling.

ETA: I don't think what the FTC does or doesn't do is relevant either. It's my understanding the class action against Activia wasn't launched by the FTC, and they're on the hook for $48 million. Don't quote me on this.
 
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which is why the agency (FTC in this case) hasn't done so. Because there isn't anything wrong with TB's advertising.
Sorry, no. If it's a food labeling issue, the FDA would handle it. They are the ones with the regulations. The FTC deals with advertising. "The Commission has previously indicated that where a claim is subject to the joint jurisdiction of the FTC and the FDA, it will accord significant deference to the FDA's standards...The use in advertising of FDA-defined terms in a manner inconsistent with FDA's definitions is likely to mislead consumers." (source)

Please...learn first, assert later.
 
You still don't get that each case is decided on its own merits. I mean, seriously, it is pointless to give examples that use different words and different imagery to describe a different product. It's even more pathetic when it's just an example you pull out of thin air.

You seem hung up on what constitutes seasoning. Just because Taco Bell calls that stuff seasoning doesn't mean it is just like if you call a dog's tail a leg doesn't make it a five-legged dog. So, I'll try to help you understand the thought process a bit better by showing how I would attack the case on behalf of the complainant.

Do seasoning packets one buys in the store contain starches? Yes, they do. Combined with water, it helps the seasoning form a "paste" that sticks to the meat.

Does Taco Bell's seasoning contain starches? Yep.

Does Taco Bell seasoning contain anything else besides starches and "traditional seasonings?" Yes. It contains oats and isolated oat product.

Um, the Oats ARE the starches in the product (they use them instead of wheat)

Do grocery store seasoning packets contain these oat products? No.

No they use wheat products instead of oat ones

Does Taco Bell's brand of taco seasoning packets contain oats? No.

It uses wheat instead.

Do any of the other Taco Bell products (carne asada, chicken) contain seasonings? Yes.

Do the above contain oats? No.

Do you have the recipes for them? Do they use wheat instead?

How is isolated oat product marketed? One listed use is as a meat extender.

Also like this:

VITACEL® oat fiber is a light, slightly yellowish, (fine)-grained dietary fiber concentrate extracted from oat spelt bran using a special production process. As an insoluble dietary fiber with a total dietary fiber content of up to 96%, VITACEL® oat fiber combines nutritional-physiological advantages (such as dietary fiber enrichment, calorie and fat reduction, calorific value reduction, etc.) with the technological advantages (such as texture improvement, control of moisture migration, reduced weight loss, etc.) in a perfect way.

http://www.jrs.de/wEnglisch/anwend/food/hafer.shtml

There are also other products that use it as a "seasoning"

INGREDIENTS

Water, Beef, Macaroni {Semolina [It May Be Enriched With Iron (Ferrous Sulfate) And B Vitamins (Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid)] And Water}, Greek Cream Sauce Base [Nonfat Milk, Modified Food Starch, A Dehydrated Blend Of Romano Cheese (Part-Skim Cow's Milk, Cheese Culture, Salt, Enzymes) Bleached Enriched Wheat Flour (Malted Barley Flour, Potassium Bromate, Niacin, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin), Egg Yolk Powder, Salt, Onion Powder, Spices, Garlic Powder, Turmeric And Sodium Phosphate], Eggs (Whole Eggs With Citric Acid), Cheese [Pasteurized Sheep's Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes, It May Also Contain Rennet), Tomato Paste, Seasonings [Oat Fiber (Isolated Oat Product), Red Wine Powder (Distilled Red Wine Extract, Maltodextrin, Natural Red Wine Flavor), Dehyrated Onion, Dehyrated Garlic, Salt, And Spices], Margarine (Liquid Soybean Oil, Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Water, Salt, Soybean Lecithin, Mono & Diglycerides, Artificially Flavored, Colored With Beta Carotene, Vitamin A Palmitate Added).

http://www.greciandelight.com/pastichio.aspx
 
Um, the Oats ARE the starches in the product (they use them instead of wheat)
Uh, no. The starches are there in other forms such as, well, I dunno, corn starch.

No they use wheat products instead of oat ones
Sorry, but isolated oat product and oats are distinctly different from corn starch and wheat flour in how they are used.

I'm going to skip the rest because you don't actually know what you're talking, you just think you do. That stuff may fly with your buddies at the bar who just nod their head because they don't give a ****, but I'm not going to waste my time with somebody just making up stuff they assume to be correct.
 
Just to expand on your point, PhantomWolf, some recipes use potato or corn instead of wheat as well. Starch is, by and large, starch. That TB uses oat is not unusual. Oat fiber happens to make a really great binding agent for ground meats (just like cornstarch, or wheat flour), and a good sauce thickener (again, just like cornstarch or wheat flour). Even if it does happen to be one of the less common things used for that purpose.
 
Sorry, but isolated oat product and oats are distinctly different from corn starch and wheat flour in how they are used.
Evidence?

I'm going to skip the rest because you don't actually know what you're talking, you just think you do. That stuff may fly with your buddies at the bar who just nod their head because they don't give a ****, but I'm not going to waste my time with somebody just making up stuff they assume to be correct.
Oh the irony... Where IS that irony meter icon anyway?
 
Here's the Canadian Food Inspection Agency webpage on types of Misleading Claims

The second section Adulteration/Substitution pretty much covers what we are talking about here. They advertise ground beef and actually use taco filling. It's no different than advertising "orange juice" and getting orange drink that's just a percentage of actual orange juice. Even if it's 88% juice and 12% flavour enhancing Tang it's not "orange juice".
 
Here's the Canadian Food Inspection Agency webpage on types of Misleading Claims

The second section Adulteration/Substitution pretty much covers what we are talking about here. They advertise ground beef and actually use taco filling. It's no different than advertising "orange juice" and getting orange drink that's just a percentage of actual orange juice. Even if it's 88% juice and 12% flavour enhancing Tang it's not "orange juice".

It could be consider "Enhanced Orange Juice" however. TB doesn't advertise "Ground Beef" it doesn't say it has "Ground Beef" in it's tacos.

So here are a few questions.

1) Does TB use "Ground Beef" as an ingredient in their taco filling?

2) Does TB use seasoning in their Taco filling?

3) If you add seasoning to Ground Beef, what do you have?
 
Here's the Canadian Food Inspection Agency webpage on types of Misleading Claims

The second section Adulteration/Substitution pretty much covers what we are talking about here. They advertise ground beef and actually use taco filling. It's no different than advertising "orange juice" and getting orange drink that's just a percentage of actual orange juice. Even if it's 88% juice and 12% flavour enhancing Tang it's not "orange juice".

You mean the taco filling that has ground beef in it in a concentration of approximately 88%, that taco filling? Because you're again ignoring that taco meat filling does not have a maximum level of ground beef, only a minimum. Hell, it could be 99% ground beef and still be labeled as taco meat filling and the tacos could still be marketed as containing/being made with 100% ground beef as long as the 99% of the taco meat filling that is ground beef is 100% ground beef.

There are two different levels of product that we're talking here. I do wish you would discontinue conflating the two - it's incorrect at best and disingenuous at worst.
 
No they aren't, they're fulfilling their legal responsibility to accurately identify the product. If they just wanted to identify it, it would just say "Taco bell beef".

Do you have any evidence that there's any bells in it?
 
There are two different levels of product that we're talking here. I do wish you would discontinue conflating the two - it's incorrect at best and disingenuous at worst.

Wah? You're conflating the two! There's taco filling and seasoned ground beef. I distinguish between the two, you on the other hand fail to see the difference.
 
If there's no actual bells in it, calling it Taco Bell Beef would be misleading.

It's in a taco? Check.
Has beef? Check.
Has bells in it? No. Does it ring? No.
Clearly, consumer fraud.
 

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