Will plug-in-hybrid vehicles solve anything?

I wonder how these teeny little clown-sized electric vehicles will pan out in countries where the average winter is -30 celsius, with windchill factors of -40 celsius, and snow drifts regularly piling up on the open highways as you're driving along... You need a powerful engine just to keep the interior of the vehicle semi-warm so the windows don't frost up.

We have to plug in our cars at night (block heaters and battery blankets) just to ensure that the damn thing starts in the morning. And that's a standard vehicle that only uses the battery power to kick start the engine.

Now with that said, having a vehicle that needs to be plugged in every few hours in normal temps would equate to needing to plug in that same vehicle every hour on the hour in our -30 celsius type of temperatures just to keep the thing operating if it runs on battery-stored power ?! The battery would need to have its own warming system to avoid freezing up while your driving to the grocery store.

So for now, I'll stick with my trusty ol' gas-powered SUV with a high chassis and biggun' tires, thank you very much. Owning a self-sustainable 4x4 vehicle where I live is a necessity, not a luxury.
 
Xephyr said:
I wonder how these teeny little clown-sized electric vehicles will pan out in countries where the average winter is -30 celsius, with windchill factors of -40 celsius, and snow drifts regularly piling up on the open highways as you're driving along... You need a powerful engine just to keep the interior of the vehicle semi-warm so the windows don't frost up.

We have to plug in our cars at night (block heaters and battery blankets) just to ensure that the damn thing starts in the morning. And that's a standard vehicle that only uses the battery power to kick start the engine.

Now with that said, having a vehicle that needs to be plugged in every few hours in normal temps would equate to needing to plug in that same vehicle every hour on the hour in our -30 celsius type of temperatures just to keep the thing operating if it runs on battery-stored power ?! The battery would need to have its own warming system to avoid freezing up while your driving to the grocery store.

So for now, I'll stick with my trusty ol' gas-powered SUV with a high chassis and biggun' tires, thank you very much. Owning a self-sustainable 4x4 vehicle where I live is a necessity, not a luxury.
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So what you're saying is, it might not be practical for some people.
 
redwards said:
On the other hand, lithium batteries are recyclable, and if your argument is about scarcity of raw materials, the standard fuel for the existing fleet doesn't appear to have a bright future.
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That may well be true, but EVs don't have much of a present.
 
davefoc said:
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/149.pdf

I didn't read the paper and I'm going to bed so I just found a relevant snippet, read it and cut and pasted it in. The paper seems thorough and even if the the lithium isn't a long term stumbling block to cheaper lithium ion batteries it may be there are others described in the paper.
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That article is nearly 11 years old, I found a more recent article:
Finally is cost. Even at $250/kWh (the 2020 industry target price), lithium’s only about 2% of the battery price. The price for LCE is about $8/kg, or about $4.80/kWh, even doubling it doesn’t have a much of an effect on the price – from 2% to 4% of total cost in 2020.
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So apparently lithium isn't the expensive part anyway. This article says GM foresees lithium-ion battery costs to drop to drop a lot in hte next 10 years, we'll see. Right now the batteries for the Volt cost GM over $10,000 each.

But again I think standardization and easy swapability(?) is the key to a successful transition to electric cars.
 
redwards said:
That's true of any nascent technology. I thought we were talking about the viability of new technologies. What's your point?
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That plug-in EVs are a long way from solving anything.
 
Xephyr said:
I wonder how these teeny little clown-sized electric vehicles will pan out in countries where the average winter is -30 celsius, with windchill factors of -40 celsius, and snow drifts regularly piling up on the open highways as you're driving along... You need a powerful engine just to keep the interior of the vehicle semi-warm so the windows don't frost up.

We have to plug in our cars at night (block heaters and battery blankets) just to ensure that the damn thing starts in the morning. And that's a standard vehicle that only uses the battery power to kick start the engine.

Now with that said, having a vehicle that needs to be plugged in every few hours in normal temps would equate to needing to plug in that same vehicle every hour on the hour in our -30 celsius type of temperatures just to keep the thing operating if it runs on battery-stored power ?! The battery would need to have its own warming system to avoid freezing up while your driving to the grocery store.

So for now, I'll stick with my trusty ol' gas-powered SUV with a high chassis and biggun' tires, thank you very much. Owning a self-sustainable 4x4 vehicle where I live is a necessity, not a luxury.
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gnome said:
So what you're saying is, it might not be practical for some people.
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The power draw of a heater in cold climates, and the power draw of an air conditioner in hot climates are issues that would have a noticeable effect on the total operating time of the engine and have to be considered. I suspect that in North America there are at least as many drivers who would/could not drive without AC in the summer as there are who would/could not drive without heat in the winter. In this respect it would not be practical for a considerable number of people.
 
I was surprised by some of the negative comments about EV's in this thread.

If EV's can be made to sell within 30-50 percent more than an equivalent ICE powered car and with a range of 100 miles or so there will be various niche markets for them. Given how large the world wide market for cars is only a small percentage penetration of that market is still large enough for EV's to be successful. I don't think anybody is suggesting that EV's are on the edge of replacing the existing automobile fleet. A lot of the criticisms mentioned so far make EV's not the best choice for a big chunk of the population, but they might be the right choice for a small but significant part of the population. A lot of people just don't care that there car doesn't run well at -30 or that the early EV's aren't going to be a good choice for schlepping stuff from Home Depot. And a whole lot of people don't live in apartments where they wouldn't have access to charging power but a whole lot people might be happy with a limited range if they can get their car charged every night in their home.

In the future if EV technology advances significantly maybe EV's and plug-hybrids will begin to gain significant market share in the general car market. And at that time a lot of the negative comments posted here might be very relevant as the EV's begin to be touted as serious competition for the general automotive market.
 
Hey, yeah, I'm sure that all-electric and plug-in hybrids are great, but am I the only one posting here who *cannot* plug a car in overnight to charge because I park in a parking lot?

Biodiesel, on the other hand, gets reasonably close to being carbon-neutral and is more easily adapted to current technology. How about a biodiesel-electric hybrid??
 
Finn McR said:
Hey, yeah, I'm sure that all-electric and plug-in hybrids are great, but am I the only one posting here who *cannot* plug a car in overnight to charge because I park in a parking lot?
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Despite my being pretty negative about EV's prospects, the issue of charging for folks in your position (i.e. most people) could be to build charging stands along streets and in parking lots. A PIN system could activate the device and switch the charge to your electricity account or c/c. Physical security could be a bitch though, and maybe weatherproofing too. Plus the violence when people needing a charge find someone casually parked at a charging-post or when two drivers cruise up to the only remaining spot. I predict the phrase "charger rage" will enter the language ;)
 
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I could envision a "charging kiosk" near each cluster of parking spaces, with multiple available sockets. A person might carry a long charger cable in their car like they carry jumper cables. Really clever ones might have some kind of electronic signature keyed to the cable that automatically charges the user.

That way it also won't matter if the person parking there has an electric vehicle or not. Just need kiosks within say 30' of a majority of the parking.
 
gnome said:
I could envision a "charging kiosk" near each cluster of parking spaces, with multiple available sockets.
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I'd like to see us standardize on a form with a simple outlet at each parking space, and have an automated probe arm with a plug that comes out of the front of every EV. That way you would know if it was charging OK before you even got out of the car, or could go find another space if it wasn't (or if your electronic account was no good there).

In the same way that cars have a "ding ding" to let you know you left your lights on, EVs could squeal if they couldn't connect, or if they could, make a nice suckling sound...
 
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Xephyr said:
I wonder how these teeny little clown-sized electric vehicles will pan out in countries where the average winter is -30 celsius, with windchill factors of -40 celsius, and snow drifts regularly piling up on the open highways as you're driving along... You need a powerful engine just to keep the interior of the vehicle semi-warm so the windows don't frost up.

We have to plug in our cars at night (block heaters and battery blankets) just to ensure that the damn thing starts in the morning. And that's a standard vehicle that only uses the battery power to kick start the engine.

Now with that said, having a vehicle that needs to be plugged in every few hours in normal temps would equate to needing to plug in that same vehicle every hour on the hour in our -30 celsius type of temperatures just to keep the thing operating if it runs on battery-stored power ?! The battery would need to have its own warming system to avoid freezing up while your driving to the grocery store.

So for now, I'll stick with my trusty ol' gas-powered SUV with a high chassis and biggun' tires, thank you very much. Owning a self-sustainable 4x4 vehicle where I live is a necessity, not a luxury.
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Electric vehicle obviously won't work there. So what? Vast majority of world's population does not live in such places. (For very good reasons, I might add.)
 
Steve said:
The power draw of a heater in cold climates, and the power draw of an air conditioner in hot climates are issues that would have a noticeable effect on the total operating time of the engine and have to be considered. I suspect that in North America there are at least as many drivers who would/could not drive without AC in the summer as there are who would/could not drive without heat in the winter. In this respect it would not be practical for a considerable number of people.
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Even on hottest summer days I use AC in my car very sparingly, if at all. Maybe I am unusual. But AFAIK, non-use of AC became much more popular when gas hit $4/gallon.
 
Mark6 said:
Even on hottest summer days I use AC in my car very sparingly, if at all. Maybe I am unusual. But AFAIK, non-use of AC became much more popular when gas hit $4/gallon.
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I don't use my AC much at all when I'm alone either. If it's hot I take my shoes off and drive with the visors down. I live in Southern CA within about 30 miles of the ocean so the climate is moderated to some degree from the areas of Southern CA further inland. Driving further inland is a different deal especially with a dark car with a dark interior. I suspect without AC interior temperatures would get to more than 120 degrees F and the dark interior acts like a heat lamp that radiates heat into the people in the car. Even with the AC on in these conditions the car's interior can be very uncomfortable. One thought here, is that if you live in a very hot climate you might consider not getting a car with a dark interior and exterior.
 
GlennB said:
Despite my being pretty negative about EV's prospects, the issue of charging for folks in your position (i.e. most people) could be to build charging stands along streets and in parking lots. A PIN system could activate the device and switch the charge to your electricity account or c/c. Physical security could be a bitch though, and maybe weatherproofing too. Plus the violence when people needing a charge find someone casually parked at a charging-post or when two drivers cruise up to the only remaining spot. I predict the phrase "charger rage" will enter the language ;)
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If, this phase of EV's is a success, then I suspect that charging stations will quickly become common, especially if the price of batteries drops substantially. The early attempts to put in electric charging stations seemed premature to me. Let's see if EV's are a success in the niche markets that they seemed to be suited for and if they succeed there then serious efforts may be justified to expand the utility of the EV's by improving the infrastructure support. And FWIW, I don't see big problems with charging station technologies, manufacturers will need to cooperate to some degree to establish standards and they will because that is in their interest and people will just pay for the use of a charging station with a credit card.
 
In a news program of one of the Hungarian channels this morning they announced that gasoline prices will be as high as 380 Forints per litre (approx $1,7) if the Lybian protests will continue for a month.

Does this (or the rise of the price of gasoline in general) help the cause of plug-in-hybrids?
 
Sati1984 said:
In a news program of one of the Hungarian channels this morning they announced that gasoline prices will be as high as 380 Forints per litre (approx $1,7) if the Lybian protests will continue for a month.

Does this (or the rise of the price of gasoline in general) help the cause of plug-in-hybrids?
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It helps the cause of more efficient -- or more efficiently used -- vehicles, certainly.

I doubt it will have that much effect on plug-in hybrids, though.

If I find the price of gasoline to be a financial hardship, I'm almost certainly not going to be able to afford the additional cost of upgrading to a hybrid. Instead I'd probably either drive less, take public transit, or if necessary sell my car and buy a smaller sized one. (Drop from the Accord to the Civic, or the Civic to the Fit, or from the Fit to a motorcycle.)

The idea that I can't afford $200 more a month to fill the Accord, so instead I'll pay another $300 a month in payments for a hybrid is,.... counterintuitive.
 
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