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Gravity is Bunk!!!

General question to anyone:
I thought that orbits were influenced by gravity in a not so obvious way. Take the Moon and Earth. My basic understanding is that the Moon is constantly falling towards Earth but its velocity causes it to constantly miss. Is this correct and is it how all orbits work?

Basically correct. The moon is constantly being pulled or accelerated toward the earth ("falling toward the earth" might not be the best choice of words). But the forward velocity means that the moon does not actually get any closer to the earth.
 
General question to anyone:
I thought that orbits were influenced by gravity in a not so obvious way. Take the Moon and Earth. My basic understanding is that the Moon is constantly falling towards Earth but its velocity causes it to constantly miss. Is this correct and is it how all orbits work?

There is an easy way to understand this, and Newton used it. First let’s pretend there is no air around the earth. You fire a cannonball at 5 miles per second parallel to the earth's surface. In that one second the cannonball with drop 16 feet, but the earth's surface as also has curved 16 feet down, so the cannonball has got any closer to the ground, so in a sense the cannonball will continue to fall around the earth, because as the ball falls the earth curves away.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
Light has no mass so how does gravity affect it? black holes? don't make me laugh

On my understanding it's to do with 'escape velocity', not mass.

Gravity affects all objects equally. Didn't Leonardo da Vinci prove this, when he dropped a small stone and a large stone, at the same moment, from the Leaning Tower of Pisa? They hit the ground at exactly the same point in time; the larger stone did not hit the ground sooner.

The Moon astronauts also proved this point when they dropped a feather on the moon. Without an atmosphere to blow it around, it fell as fast as a stone.

But getting back to escape velocity.

If you throw a ball into the air, it will go up so far and then be pulled back down by gravity. But if you were able to throw the ball into the air so hard that it travelled at 11.2 km per second, then it would entirely escape the earth's gravitational field and go into space.

The larger an object, the stronger its gravitational pull. A black hole's gravity is so strong that its escape velocity is greater than the speed of light, so light cannot escape.

So, just to clarify one point: the gravitational pull of an object (the degree to which it bends space around it) is related to its mass; but the effect it has on other bodies is not related to their mass, although it is related to the square of the distance between the objects.

That is in my own humble understanding.
 
General question to anyone:
I thought that orbits were influenced by gravity in a not so obvious way. Take the Moon and Earth. My basic understanding is that the Moon is constantly falling towards Earth but its velocity causes it to constantly miss. Is this correct and is it how all orbits work?

I believe that there are two types of orbit, circular and elliptical.

If you imagine that a bomb is dropped from a plane, the bomb will not fall directly downwards, because it is still travelling in a horizontal direction at the same speed as the plane. However, it is also accelerating downwards at 9.8 metres per second per second. Its trajectory will therefore measure a curve that moves gradually from almost horizontal towards the vertical.

Now imagine that the bomb was dropped so high up, that its trajectory follows the curve of the earth. It will follow a circular orbit around the earth, and that's what artificial satellites do.

However, bodies in more distant orbit follow an elliptical orbit (an ellipse being a flattened circle with two focii). As they move towards the larger body, they accelerate, but in doing so pick up momentum that sends them further away again. The moon is in an elliptical orbit around the earth, and appears slightly larger at perigee (its closest approach to the earth) than it does at apogee (its furthest distance from the earth).

Similarly, the earth moves in an elliptical orbit around the sun.

However, these ellipses are very nearly circular. A more extreme example of an elliptical orbit is the path of comets, who fall in towards the sun and are then thrown out again into the frozen depths of trans-plutonian space.

Again, just my humble understanding.
 
Okay, is it just me or does gravity not make sense? I guess I get confused by over thinking it but here's what I gather from all my years of public education. We are all living on a GIANT sphere that is rotating right? If I'm not mistaken we are spinning pretty ***** fast too, right?

Well, the other day i was thinking (and I wasn't stoned I swear) that if i got a tennis ball and dipped it into a bucket of paint and spun it on the floor, it would sling the paint OUTWARD all over everything. So I guess my question is, if we are on a giant tennis ball why aren't we being slung everywhere like the paint???

I just can't see how gravity holds us down when it seems we should be thrown into oblivion. SOMEONE HELP!!!:boggled:

Just as a matter of interest, Dan, what do you think causes objects to fall?

Let me get one thing out of the way to begin with. I assume that you accept that the earth is round (more or less).

At any point on the earth's surface, objects fall towards the earth. That is indisputable. Somebody standing on the opposite side of the earth to yourself does not 'fall off'.

So, what do you think is causing objects to fall towards the earth's surface, irrespective of where they are located on that surface - if not gravity?

Doesn't 'gravity' simply describe the obvious fact that the earth is somehow attracting objects to it - however you may think that attraction comes about?
 
I believe that there are two types of orbit, circular and elliptical.

...

Again, just my humble understanding.

That's true, but a little incomplete. A circular orbit is a special case of an elliptical one, just as a circle is a special case of an ellipse, one in which the two foci coincide. On the other hand, so as not to slight the other conic sections, there are also parabolic and hyperbolic orbits. They explain what happens to an incoming body that is going too fast to be captured. The hyperbolic orbit is one in which the satellite makes a single pass by the body and has its path shifted by gravity; this is the kind of orbit that Cassini made past Venus when getting a gravity assist, and again at Titan to attain orbital insertion. A special case of the hyperbolic orbit and the elliptical is the parabolic orbit, where the satellite has exactly the escape velocity needed to keep out of an elliptical orbit.

Circular and parabolic orbits are "ideals"; they are very rare and unlikely, like the chance of a coin winding up on edge when tossed. So most all orbits are either elliptical or hyperbolic. It may seen a bit disingenuous to use orbit for a hyperbolic, but astronomers and aerospace engineers do.
 
So, just to clarify one point: the gravitational pull of an object (the degree to which it bends space around it) is related to its mass; but the effect it has on other bodies is not related to their mass, although it is related to the square of the distance between the objects.

Actually, gravitation is a force that attracts two objects, and it's magnitude is proportional to the product of their masses together and inversely proportional to their separation distance squared. Both masses are part of the equation, even if one is hugely greater than the other.
 
General question to anyone:
I thought that orbits were influenced by gravity in a not so obvious way. Take the Moon and Earth. My basic understanding is that the Moon is constantly falling towards Earth but its velocity causes it to constantly miss. Is this correct and is it how all orbits work?

You are correct. If you consider all masses to be point masses, then, when two such masses encounter each other they will orbit, excepting only the single path in which they exactly collide. If they encounter each other at greater than their mutual escape velocity, the orbit will be hyperbolic; they'll approach, pass by and then move away infinitely far. If they happen to meet exactly at their escape velocity, then they'll follow parabolic paths, and again never meet again. If they meet at less than their escape velocity they'll each enter an elliptical orbit around their common center of gravity (assuming Newtonian, not relativistic mechanics - Sol is watching!). In general, if they approached from far apart and encounter no other bodies or friction forces, they'll do the hyperbolic. To get into an elliptical orbit from a far approach requires a loss of energy in the system, which might be atmospheric friction, a retro-rocket or another body to reverse sling-shot off of.

Finally, bodies aren't point masses. If an orbit intersects the actual non-zero surface of the other, what would have been an orbital close-approach (periapsis) in the orbit will turn out to be a collision.
 
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Ahhh Bishadi is here: I wondered why this thread was still going :)

Probably the thing to do here is to avoid confusing the map with the territory - there are a lot of different models for gravitation, each addressing important aspects.

Newtonian Gravitation kicks the whole stuff off and the model works for pretty much everything you will ever see in your normal life.

General Relativity starts out with the observation that a linearly accelerating reference frame is indistinguishable from a gravitating one. (Rotational acceleration, as pointed out to 2008 - go back to the start of this thread, is different.) The trouble with this is that it produces singularities in euclidean geometry ... so we just use a non-euclidean geometry in our calculations. The effect is that if we send two objects out on parallel courses, they will eventually collide. This is the behavior we get, in 2D, on the surface of a sphere ... which is why we say that space time is curved. Indeed, the maths is consistent with the mathematical concepts related to curvature, only in 4 dimensions .... we can forgive people who find this hard to imagine.

General Relativity manages to reduce to Newtonian gravitation in the case of small accelerations and it is quite easy to show. You'll find it in the early chapters of any recent text-book on gravitation. The math is not too hard at that stage, you don't even need tensors. Go look.

In this model, gravitation is still a property of mass, but manifests as a measurable curvature. As a result, you can deduce the mass of an object by measuring the space-time curvature near it. Which is what we normally do for very big things like planets. However, if you are very careful, you can attempt the Cavendish experiment - which does this for very small objects.

A telling reason this curvature idea works better than newtons is that photons, massless, are still affected by gravity (and differently to the path if you used the mass-energy relation to compute the photons "gravitational mass"). Now I know that Bashadi does not like photon models - in which case it is even worse as the EM fields are also affected by gravity and you don't even have the handy "particle" to blame. If you don't like the idea that space-time is "actually" curved, consider it a metaphor arising from the math - much as some predator-prey models have elliptical math - and blame, instead, the differing reference frames.

Gravitons and stuff are parts of attempts to unify quantum mechanics with general relativity. There are a bunch of different ways to deal with this which are all unsatisfactory in some circumstances. You'll never run into the situations they involve in normal life.

Even in normal QM, general relativity is added as a perturbation on the weightless form of the math ... just to get the fine detail out. In this context it is a very small effect.

From the POV of the OP - the question is adequately answered by resolving confusions around Newtonian gravitation.

As for what gravity actually is - it is the name given to label a set of phenomena. Mainly we are talking about how come objects stick to the Earth, as OP observed they should be slung off. But, centrally, and publishing this was Newtons important contribution, is that two masses initially at rest wrt each other are observed to accelerate towards each other. Please please please do not confuse the map with the territory. As soon as you start talking about the fundamental nature of the Universe you enter a work in progress - nobody knows: live with it.
 
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Gravity affects all objects equally. Didn't Leonardo da Vinci prove this, when he dropped a small stone and a large stone, at the same moment, from the Leaning Tower of Pisa?

I believe that was Galileo. But, I wouldn't be surprised if it was like the "apple hitting Newton on the head" story; apocryphal.
 
The Galileo+Pisa story is apocryphal. However, he did a lot of experiments that add up to the same thing.

But there is a nice philosophical discussion here:
http://www.jimloy.com/physics/galileo.htm

The situation in real life is usually more complex that the situation on paper. The collection of orbits from gravitation described before are all the usual results from any central point attractor which is conservative ... eg. a central force field. The trouble is that real life involves a large number of them so the actual paths something like a planet follows becomes complicated.

Check out Poincar for more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincaré_map

You can have lots of fun with computer models of gravitating systems because of this.

Cute discussion of gravitational vs inertial mass:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=290422
 
Test your understanding:

You weigh a big box and a small box, on the moon, with a very sensitive balance, and discover that the weights are exactly equal. An identical setup is on the Earth - clearly the weights measured are greater on the Earth, but are they still the same? Explain.
 
Test your understanding:

You weigh a big box and a small box, on the moon, with a very sensitive balance, and discover that the weights are exactly equal. An identical setup is on the Earth - clearly the weights measured are greater on the Earth, but are they still the same? Explain.

Interesting.

They could differ as the force vectors between each atom of the earth and the boxes may add up slightly differently.
The Earth's gravitational field have a gentler curve than the moon's, so the same non-point masses could be effected differently depending on their volume.
 
Interesting.

They could differ as the force vectors between each atom of the earth and the boxes may add up slightly differently.
The Earth's gravitational field have a gentler curve than the moon's, so the same non-point masses could be effected differently depending on their volume.

Indeed it could! Also if the Moonside one was conducted close to a mountain that would produce a difference if we moved the experiment setup someplace else - even staying on the moon.

... and I stated "very sensitive balance" so small differences is what is looked for here. This is one of those questions which has no one right answer. But some answers are "nicer" than others. So are there any other possibilities? What else could affect the balance?

(Note: this is one of the puzzles I used to give to students ... I collect the annoying ones: the ones that tend to nag at people until they break down and try to solve it. A discussion of this one is probably online someplace - I allow students to cheat. Ahhh ... similar stuff http://openlibrary.org/books/OL18198258M/Thinking_physics_is_Gedanken_physics )
 
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Just as a matter of interest, Dan, what do you think causes objects to fall?

Let me get one thing out of the way to begin with. I assume that you accept that the earth is round (more or less).

At any point on the earth's surface, objects fall towards the earth. That is indisputable. Somebody standing on the opposite side of the earth to yourself does not 'fall off'.

So, what do you think is causing objects to fall towards the earth's surface, irrespective of where they are located on that surface - if not gravity?

Doesn't 'gravity' simply describe the obvious fact that the earth is somehow attracting objects to it - however you may think that attraction comes about?

For some reason people think I don't believe gravity exists, lol!

I know gravity exist, but I'm confused on whaT causes it. I'm getting a better mental picture w/ some of these neat vids and comments people are posting. It's just always something Ive accepted and never questioned how it works. To be clear, I do know gravity exists.
 
Light has no mass so how does gravity affect it? black holes? don't make me laugh

Newton knew that gravity affected light. He knew a lot about gravity, and he knew a lot about light.

However, Einstein's calculations for how much gravity affects light were more accurate than Newton's.

This was put to the test during a solar eclipse in (IIRC) 1919. Light from a star behind the sun was bent by exactly the degree Einstein predicted. That's the moment in history when "Einstein" became synonymous with "genius" to the average person.
 
I know gravity exist, but I'm confused on whaT causes it.

Join the club. There's a LOT about gravity that hasn't been figured out yet. Such as:

--There should be a particle called the "graviton" that's associated with gravity. It hasn't been observed.

--We haven't figured out how to define gravity in terms of quantum physics. String theory would solve this problem if it could be verified, but it can't be verified.
 

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