Taco Bell sued

[Furcifer]

They only need more than 40%. Right?

To call it "taco filling".

 

[Furcifer]

You would think so, and in a home kitchen it is true, but commercial food can fool you. For example, they can texture oats to mimic ground beef amazingly well and they can add "natural flavors" to replicate the flavor of beef. It tastes the same, is cheaper, and is better for you.

This is true. I don't understand why Taco Bell doesn't just go with this idea? Say "No it isn't ground beef, it's a more nutritious mix we designed with our customers health in mind". PETA's already on board with that.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Umm, what "ground beef"? Taco Bell never describes anything as "ground beef". The filling is described as "seasoned ground beef" and the beef in it is only referred to as "beef".

Seasoning cannot contain fillers and extenders if you want to call the resulting product "ground beef". Taco Bell doesn't do that, they call it "seasoned ground beef", so there's no issue.

I would agree that Taco Bell would at least arguably be being deceptive if they listed their ingredients as "beef, water, seasoning" and didn't disclose that the seasoning mixture contained a texture modifier or extender. But they clearly disclose that the seasoning mixture contains oats everywhere they refer to it as "seasoning". This can't be deceptive or fraudulent under ordinary principles because it's clearly disclosed. And no special law prohibits this particular labeling.

I doubt most customers know that ground beef, for example, cannot contain added water. Probably most customers simply don't think about it much. Those that really care can look at the ingredients.

However, there is nothing deceptive about referring to ground beef that has been seasoned as "seasoned ground beef" in a context where customers clearly understand that it's a taco filling.

It really is seasoned ground beef taco filling. Taco Bell claims nothing more than this.

*sigh* If Taco Bell was serving raw ground beef, you'd be correct. As Taco Bell is not in the business of selling raw ground beef, the statute quoted so oft by 3bodyproblem doesn't apply. As such, Taco Bell is well within their rights to advertise that their tacos contain real, 100% ground beef - even if the taco itself is only 88% ground beef (the 100% applies to the quality of ground beef, not the volume of beef in the taco) and even though seasoning and water is added to the beef to make "seasoned ground beef".

 

[Furcifer]

*sigh* If Taco Bell was serving raw ground beef, you'd be correct. As Taco Bell is not in the business of selling raw ground beef, the statute quoted so oft by 3bodyproblem doesn't apply. As such, Taco Bell is well within their rights to advertise that their tacos contain real, 100% ground beef - even if the taco itself is only 88% ground beef (the 100% applies to the quality of ground beef, not the volume of beef in the taco) and even though seasoning and water is added to the beef to make "seasoned ground beef".

No they aren't. There are numerous class action lawsuits against McDonald's and Wendy's and other chain restaurants that clearly demonstrate they are subject to the same regulations when it comes to advertising their food.

You'd have to be totally ignorant of all the problems McDonald's has been through in the last 25 years to think they could advertise whatever they like however they like.

 

[not daSkeptic]

You'd have to be totally ignorant of all the problems McDonald's has been through in the last 25 years to think they could advertise whatever they like however they like.

Reminds me of "Always Fresh" Tim Hortons and their microwaved frozen doughnuts.

 

[Uncayimmy]

*sigh* If Taco Bell was serving raw ground beef, you'd be correct. As Taco Bell is not in the business of selling raw ground beef, the statute quoted so oft by 3bodyproblem doesn't apply. As such, Taco Bell is well within their rights to advertise that their tacos contain real, 100% ground beef - even if the taco itself is only 88% ground beef (the 100% applies to the quality of ground beef, not the volume of beef in the taco) and even though seasoning and water is added to the beef to make "seasoned ground beef".

I think Bob has me on ignore, but this is just wrong. We're in the murky world of what constitutes deceptive advertising. At the extreme end, suppose Taco Bell created a soy/oat based filling that had the appearance and texture of ground beef. Suppose further that this "filling" had 1% pure ground beef in it.

The legality of how they advertise their product would depend entirely the exact phrasing and context. Technically, their filling contains pure ground beef. The question is how many consumers looking at a picture of a taco with what appears to be seasoned ground beef and seeing "contains pure ground beef" would reasonably conclude that 99% of the filling is really oats and tofu.

Being truthful is but one burden. It also must not mislead customers acting "reasonably" under the circumstances in a way that affects a material part of their decision process. If I sell a mouthwash that I say prevents colds, that would be an untruthful specific claim. If I sell a mouthwash that kills the germs that cause colds, that would be truthful. However, the implication is that my mouthwash prevents colds, which is not true. This is the example the FTC gives.

So, when Taco Bell says their tacos are made with a tortilla, lettuce, cheese and seasoned ground beef, that's truthful. The question is whether it's misleading. I happen to think it is. I make tacos using ground beef. After I cook the meat, I pour off the liquid since I can't easily separate the water from the fat. I then add various spices (chili powder, cumin, salt, paprika) and a wee bit of water. That's seasoned ground beef.

I don't add any oats, flour, soy or yeast. Some people add corn starch. So, reasonable people will disagree on their expectations of seeing "seasoned ground beef" in the advertising (the exact list of ingredients is irrelevant to the advertising).

Side Note 1: The retail price of flour is about 60 cents per pound. The retail price of ground beef is about $2 per pound. When you sell a bajillion tacos, 5% starches can be a significant savings.

Side Note 2: While closing on our house about eight years ago, I got to talking with the clerks about Taco Bell wondering how they could sell tacos so cheap. This person, who said he used to work there, claimed that the "taco meat" came to them dehydrated. He said they added water to reconstitute it. I make no claims as to the veracity.

Side Note 3: Think outside the bun? How about thinking outside the frigging tortilla?

 

[Furcifer]

Reminds me of "Always Fresh" Tim Hortons and their microwaved frozen doughnuts.

I think I remember that, wasn't that about the cherry cheese danish? I'd eat them frozen.

 

[Furcifer]

I think Bob has me on ignore, but this is just wrong. We're in the murky world of what constitutes deceptive advertising. At the extreme end, suppose Taco Bell created a soy/oat based filling that had the appearance and texture of ground beef. Suppose further that this "filling" had 1% pure ground beef in it.

The legality of how they advertise their product would depend entirely the exact phrasing and context. Technically, their filling contains pure ground beef. The question is how many consumers looking at a picture of a taco with what appears to be seasoned ground beef and seeing "contains pure ground beef" would reasonably conclude that 99% of the filling is really oats and tofu.

Being truthful is but one burden. It also must not mislead customers acting "reasonably" under the circumstances in a way that affects a material part of their decision process. If I sell a mouthwash that I say prevents colds, that would be an untruthful specific claim. If I sell a mouthwash that kills the germs that cause colds, that would be truthful. However, the implication is that my mouthwash prevents colds, which is not true. This is the example the FTC gives.

So, when Taco Bell says their tacos are made with a tortilla, lettuce, cheese and seasoned ground beef, that's truthful. The question is whether it's misleading. I happen to think it is. I make tacos using ground beef. After I cook the meat, I pour off the liquid since I can't easily separate the water from the fat. I then add various spices (chili powder, cumin, salt, paprika) and a wee bit of water. That's seasoned ground beef.

I don't add any oats, flour, soy or yeast. Some people add corn starch. So, reasonable people will disagree on their expectations of seeing "seasoned ground beef" in the advertising (the exact list of ingredients is irrelevant to the advertising).

Side Note 1: The retail price of flour is about 60 cents per pound. The retail price of ground beef is about $2 per pound. When you sell a bajillion tacos, 5% starches can be a significant savings.

Side Note 2: While closing on our house about eight years ago, I got to talking with the clerks about Taco Bell wondering how they could sell tacos so cheap. This person, who said he used to work there, claimed that the "taco meat" came to them dehydrated. He said they added water to reconstitute it. I make no claims as to the veracity.

Side Note 3: Think outside the bun? How about thinking outside the frigging tortilla?

I don't see how this case could be any simpler to decide, "ground beef" contains 100% beef. Taco Bell's filling doesn't contain 100% beef, so it can't be "ground beef". Stop calling it "ground beef" and call it what is says on the label "taco meat filling" or "beef taco filing".
Seems simple to me.

 

[not daSkeptic]

I don't see how this case could be any simpler to decide, "ground beef" contains 100% beef.

Considering there will mostly likely always be a small amount of non-beef present in a portion of meat (even if it's only a few molecules), can anything really be considered "ground beef" by this definition?

 

[Furcifer]

Considering there will mostly likely always be a small amount of non-beef present in a portion of meat (even if it's only a few molecules), can anything really be considered "ground beef" by this definition?

Salt and seasoning are allowed by definition though.

It's misleading when the "seasoning" contains anything known to be used as a filler or extender. Once that happens is becomes a different product.

We may have got to the point where a more specific definition of "ground meat" is required. Perhaps it should set a maximum mass or volume percentage of the product before it can no longer be considered "ground beef"? Say if it contains more than 2% "extraneous" edible material or spices is should be considered "seasoned [species] filling".

 

[not daSkeptic]

We may have got to the point where a more specific definition of "ground meat" is required.

Is this not the crux of the entire issue? The legal definition of terms?

 

[Furcifer]

Is this not the crux of the entire issue? The legal definition of terms?

I think the crux of the matter is how companies mislead people. There's really no problem with the definition of "ground meat". Meat packers understand, grocery stores understand. You grind lean meat with fat, a dash of natural colouring (aka blood) and there you have it.

The problem is when chains lie and misrepresent their product to fool customers and gain market share. TB's product comes properly labeled from the meat packers. Why? Because they don't care, they have no reason to lie. The restaurants, they're the ones that have a reason to lie and they know they can get away with it until they get caught.

It's on the honour system, and there's no honour anymore.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I think Bob has me on ignore, but this is just wrong. We're in the murky world of what constitutes deceptive advertising. At the extreme end, suppose Taco Bell created a soy/oat based filling that had the appearance and texture of ground beef. Suppose further that this "filling" had 1% pure ground beef in it.

The legality of how they advertise their product would depend entirely the exact phrasing and context. Technically, their filling contains pure ground beef. The question is how many consumers looking at a picture of a taco with what appears to be seasoned ground beef and seeing "contains pure ground beef" would reasonably conclude that 99% of the filling is really oats and tofu.

Being truthful is but one burden. It also must not mislead customers acting "reasonably" under the circumstances in a way that affects a material part of their decision process. If I sell a mouthwash that I say prevents colds, that would be an untruthful specific claim. If I sell a mouthwash that kills the germs that cause colds, that would be truthful. However, the implication is that my mouthwash prevents colds, which is not true. This is the example the FTC gives.

So, when Taco Bell says their tacos are made with a tortilla, lettuce, cheese and seasoned ground beef, that's truthful. The question is whether it's misleading. I happen to think it is. I make tacos using ground beef. After I cook the meat, I pour off the liquid since I can't easily separate the water from the fat. I then add various spices (chili powder, cumin, salt, paprika) and a wee bit of water. That's seasoned ground beef.

I don't add any oats, flour, soy or yeast. Some people add corn starch. So, reasonable people will disagree on their expectations of seeing "seasoned ground beef" in the advertising (the exact list of ingredients is irrelevant to the advertising).

Side Note 1: The retail price of flour is about 60 cents per pound. The retail price of ground beef is about $2 per pound. When you sell a bajillion tacos, 5% starches can be a significant savings.

Side Note 2: While closing on our house about eight years ago, I got to talking with the clerks about Taco Bell wondering how they could sell tacos so cheap. This person, who said he used to work there, claimed that the "taco meat" came to them dehydrated. He said they added water to reconstitute it. I make no claims as to the veracity.

Side Note 3: Think outside the bun? How about thinking outside the frigging tortilla?

There are 5 ingredients in the meat, and nearly 90% of those ingredients is beef. That's pretty reasonable. Only 3-4% of the ingredients in the seasoned ground beef is where the oats are. Note that this 3-4% includes sugar, starch, and yeast (with a few other ingredients).

 

[Uncayimmy]

There are 5 ingredients in the meat, and nearly 90% of those ingredients is beef. That's pretty reasonable. Only 3-4% of the ingredients in the seasoned ground beef is where the oats are. Note that this 3-4% includes sugar, starch, and yeast (with a few other ingredients).

As I said, reasonable people will disagree. I think all of us would agree that something like beef taco meat filling is a more accurate description.

But I asked the following before: If a company sells tacos without the extra starches (oats, yeast, soy), how could they differentiate their product from Taco Bell's via advertising?

 

[mortimer]

As I said, reasonable people will disagree. I think all of us would agree that something like beef taco meat filling is a more accurate description.

But I asked the following before: If a company sells tacos without the extra starches (oats, yeast, soy), how could they differentiate their product from Taco Bell's via advertising?

And I've asked this before: Where does Taco Bell advertise that they sell seasoned ground beef?

Is it because the nutrition page lists "seasoned ground beef" and proceeds to list the ingredients? Would it be better if Taco Bell split their "seasoned ground beef" into two line items?

Ground beef: 100% USDA inspected ground beef
Taco seasoning: (all the other stuff)

Plenty of other sellers of prepared beef products advertise that their beef contains "no additives, no fillers, no preservatives", etc. Wouldn't that differentiate them from Taco Bell?

 

[Emet]

Manager's beef with company led to lawsuit

The class-action lawsuit probing Taco Bell's mystery meat began with a mystery manager.
(...)
The manager ran to an attorney to expose this gross injustice — and a class action lawsuit was born.

The Montgomery, Ala., law firm that filed the suit last month isn't revealing the manager's identity.
(...)
The lawsuit doesn't seek monetary damages. All it asks is for Taco Bell to stop calling its product "beef" and "seasoned ground beef," and call it what it is labeled as it comes in the back of the store, "taco meat filling."

This seems reasonable, but Taco Bell may not have any legal requirement to do so. The USDA requires the "taco meat filling" label on wholesale products, but doesn't govern what to say in advertisements or on menus.
(...)
I'm looking forward to hearing from the mystery manager who rang Taco Bell's bell — if this case ever makes it to trial.

What drives a man to expose "taco meat filling"? Could be another case study in fast-food management: Take care of your people before your people take care of you.

http://www.denverpost.com/allewis/ci_17294391

 

[Uncayimmy]

And I've asked this before: Where does Taco Bell advertise that they sell seasoned ground beef?

You are conflating nutrition facts with advertising. They are required by law to list their ingredients. That's a relatively strictly regulated process, and it's not relevant to the debate.

Their advertising is what you see in the media. They describe their tacos as "A crunchy, corn taco shell filled with seasoned ground beef, crisp shredded lettuce, and real cheddar cheese." The question is how reasonable people will interpret "seasoned ground beef." Clearly its material to their decision to purchase (otherwise, why list it?).

As we examine it further, there are two questions. First, is the claim truthful? In my opinion it is. There's plenty of ground beef and seasoning in their taco meat filling for it to be called seasoned ground beef.

Second, does it imply anything? That could be answered by doing a survey asking something like this:

Which one(s) of the following would you expect to constitute seasoned ground beef if mentioned in an ad for a food item in a restaurant?

a) ground beef, chili powder, salt, pepper, cumin
b) ground beef, water, chili powder, salt, pepper, cumin
c) ground beef, water, oats, yeast, chili powder, salt, pepper, cumin

If you don't get a substantial number including (c) then you've got misleading advertising on your hands.

3B (you can be a terrible communicator, friend) seems to be making the point that if you go to the grocery store to buy seasoned ground beef, they could only call (a) seasoned ground beef by law. The way the law is relevant (it's not applicable) to this discussion is simply that it creates an expectation in the minds of consumers about the meaning of seasoned ground beef when seen in another context. It's a reasonable point to make.

I believe there are some trained cooks here. I'm not one, but I cook and bake a lot. While I would add water to ground beef when making taco meat, I would not add any starches. If I did, it would probably be corn starch. What concerns me is that the combination of the oats, yeast, water and heat results in expansion. Personally, I've never added yeast to anything I didn't want to rise at least a wee bit (maybe that's my lack of training). To me that implies that Taco Bell is, in fact, using a "filler" to make it look like you're getting more ground beef than you really are.

There's a case here. I can't say where it will go, but I doubt it will get tossed. I predict a settlement and a modification to their advertising once this dies down.

 

[slingblade]

From that Denver Post article:

"The only reason we add anything to our beef is to give the meat flavor and quality," the ads read. "Otherwise we'd end up with nothing more than the bland flavor of ground beef."

Hmm. So it starts off "bland"? Then they add "flavor and quality"? No wonder they call Taco Bell's parent company Yum! Brands Inc.

Sorry, I know this doesn't relate to the actual suit. But I've seen this comment about blandness several times now, from various sources. Reading it reminds me of an anecdotal event from the mid-1980s.

I owned a small wholesale/retail bakery and pizzeria in a little mountain mining town. Next door had been a small cafe', but the owner sold it. The new owners decided Georgetown, CO needed a Mexican restaurant. Shortly after they opened, I ordered a nice, big burrito from them for lunch. The filling was ground beef, as opposed to shredded beef, which they also offered.

I took it back to my bakery, cut into it, and noticed even before I tasted it that the ground beef inside the tortilla was that, and only that: pan-fried ground beef. I couldn't even call it "browned." It was more or less grey. And as tasteless and as bland as it gets. It's not that it tasted bad, it simply didn't taste good. It didn't taste much like anything. Yes, it was fresh. It was simply and completely unseasoned.

So, though this comment of mine has nothing to do with the suit itself, I did want to say, regarding the "bland ground beef" comments....YES. Yes, pan-fried ground beef with no seasonings or spices or additives of any kind can taste really freaking bland, tyvm.

(And it wasn't a one-off. I ordered another maybe 3 or 4 weeks later. Same thing. My then-husband went over to talk to them one day, to see if he could help with the "recipe." The wife informed him she was using a recipe, one handed down in her family. Um. Yeah. They didn't stay in business very long. )

 

[BobTheDonkey]

You are conflating nutrition facts with advertising. They are required by law to list their ingredients. That's a relatively strictly regulated process, and it's not relevant to the debate.

Their advertising is what you see in the media. They describe their tacos as "A crunchy, corn taco shell filled with seasoned ground beef, crisp shredded lettuce, and real cheddar cheese." The question is how reasonable people will interpret "seasoned ground beef." Clearly its material to their decision to purchase (otherwise, why list it?).

As we examine it further, there are two questions. First, is the claim truthful? In my opinion it is. There's plenty of ground beef and seasoning in their taco meat filling for it to be called seasoned ground beef.

Second, does it imply anything? That could be answered by doing a survey asking something like this:

Which one(s) of the following would you expect to constitute seasoned ground beef if mentioned in an ad for a food item in a restaurant?

a) ground beef, chili powder, salt, pepper, cumin
b) ground beef, water, chili powder, salt, pepper, cumin
c) ground beef, water, oats, yeast, chili powder, salt, pepper, cumin

If you don't get a substantial number including (c) then you've got misleading advertising on your hands.

3B (you can be a terrible communicator, friend) seems to be making the point that if you go to the grocery store to buy seasoned ground beef, they could only call (a) seasoned ground beef by law. The way the law is relevant (it's not applicable) to this discussion is simply that it creates an expectation in the minds of consumers about the meaning of seasoned ground beef when seen in another context. It's a reasonable point to make.

I believe there are some trained cooks here. I'm not one, but I cook and bake a lot. While I would add water to ground beef when making taco meat, I would not add any starches. If I did, it would probably be corn starch. What concerns me is that the combination of the oats, yeast, water and heat results in expansion. Personally, I've never added yeast to anything I didn't want to rise at least a wee bit (maybe that's my lack of training). To me that implies that Taco Bell is, in fact, using a "filler" to make it look like you're getting more ground beef than you really are.

There's a case here. I can't say where it will go, but I doubt it will get tossed. I predict a settlement and a modification to their advertising once this dies down.

How many recipes can there be for any one dish?

Try looking up "baked chicken". Simple recipe, right? Everyone, and I mean everyone will season it differently. The same goes for meatloaf, chicken noodle soup, etc.

If I desire a thicker consistency in my chicken noodle soup, is it any less chicken noodle soup if I add a little yeast/starch/oats? Certainly not.

Reasonable people would agree that recipes differ, according to personal taste. If the texture and flavor that Taco Bell desires to use in their tacos (and this is referring to their marketing research) needs those ingredients and they're included at such a low level, I can't agree that they're being used in a manner that is inconsistent with their advertising.

Made with 100% ground beef
Made with seasoned ground beef
Made with taco meat filling

are all accurate reflections of the ingredients - even if you would not use all the ingredients in your own taco meat filling.

 

[Uncayimmy]

How many recipes can there be for any one dish?

17 max.

Try looking up "baked chicken". Simple recipe, right? Everyone, and I mean everyone will season it differently. The same goes for meatloaf, chicken noodle soup, etc.

If I desire a thicker consistency in my chicken noodle soup, is it any less chicken noodle soup if I add a little yeast/starch/oats? Certainly not.

That's not in question. There is no need for an analogy in this discussion. I've already explained the requirements. The claim must be truthful, and it must not be misleading in a material way. That's the test in a nutshell.

To claim that some other food item when described a certain way is truthful and not misleading does not mean that in this case the claim is also truthful and not misleading (same for the opposite). Each claim is examined on its own merits with the tests I described (based on what the FTC requires).

Reasonable people would agree that recipes differ, according to personal taste. If the texture and flavor that Taco Bell desires to use in their tacos (and this is referring to their marketing research) needs those ingredients and they're included at such a low level, I can't agree that they're being used in a manner that is inconsistent with their advertising.

Made with 100% ground beef
Made with seasoned ground beef
Made with taco meat filling

are all accurate reflections of the ingredients - even if you would not use all the ingredients in your own taco meat filling.

As I said several times already, being truthful is only one prong of the test. Another prong is whether it's misleading in a material way (two prongs really). Their claim is truthful, but is it misleading. People will disagree, but the problem I've seen in this thread is that people keep focusing on the truth test without adequately addressing the misleading aspect. Truth does not negate misleading.

I would rule that Taco Bell must change its advertising primarily for two reasons. First, if they are allowed to refer to that component as "seasoned ground beef," then it places an unfair burden on any other company wanting to sell a taco that only contains ground beef and seasoning without oats, soy and yeast. As a consumer I wouldn't realize the two were different.

Second, I'm suspicious as to why the yeast is added. If the effect of the yeast is to combine with the starches, water and heat to create air pockets and thus pump up the volume, that's a deceptive trade practice because I'm actually getting ground beef, seasoning, and air pockets I wouldn't normally get.

If you go to AllRecipes.com and do an ingredient search for ground beef and yeast while putting "taco" as the keyword, only three recipes show up. All three are baked items. If you remove yeast, you get 20 recipes, most of which are typical taco filling recipes. I consider that evidence that yeast is not a standard practice in taco filling.