Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris C]

Totally agree with your last paragraph - but ... Instead of admitting they were wrong better go both ways..... I'll fully abide with the court's decision, how about you?

We wouldn't be here discussing this if the pro-innocence people abided by the courts decision. The same decision on the same evidence solves nothing for the pro-innocence side. Either prove they were involved or let them go. So far the prosecution/court have yet to provide enough evidence for the pro-innocence side to feel Knox is guilty.

 

[Kaosium]

Interesting, and if the court stays their sentence or lengthens it, what will the all the FOAKer's say? No need to reply....

Sherlock, they will have to first try to prove something that is at least possible, let alone something that proves guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That is the main trouble with Massei: what is in there amounts to a lower odds shot than time travelers or aliens with advanced technologies being involved.

Why do you think all the forensic specialists come out against them, and even Col. Garofano trying to justify the conviction doesn't agree with it, or even touch the murder room in his 'analysis' I re-posted about five pages back?

They'd have to also 'fess up to all the lies and suspicious activities, provide explanations for each, and punish them and the perjurers before I came to the conclusion that convicting Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox was the pursuit of justice and not simply incompetent buffoons covering their asses and scapegoating their victims.

 

[treehorn]

...
If it turned out that "rape pranks" or "hazing" friends with rape was a real thing, that would go some way towards decreasing the improbability of Meredith Kercher being murdered as part of some kind of "hazing" ritual or "rape prank"...

1) Here's an example near your neck o' the woods, Kevin (note: 1 of the 4 'pranksters' was a 17 year old female):

http://news.smh.com.au/national/four-escape-jail-over-dildo-rape-prank-20071129-1dp0.html

Four escape jail over dildo rape prank

By Todd Cardy
November 29, 2007

A group of four who raped a drunken male friend with a dildo while he slept and videotaped the attack have escaped a jail term.

The South Australian District Court heard on Thursday Brendan Phillip Hollands, Sian Catherine Whistler, David Kingsley McMahon and a 17-year-old girl had been drinking heavily on December 10, 2005, at Hollands' Aberfoyle Park house, in Adelaide's south...


2) Here's another example from Italian TV, no less (based on what we know about their ages, interests and maturity levels, it's not hard to imagine RS and/or AK finding it to their liking):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y-bntffHIY


Granted, there are 'relevant differences' with respect to these (easy to find) examples, but you cannot reasonably deny the 'relevant similarities'.

 

[treehorn]

...The pretence that you and TomM43 are practicing trial lawyers has cratered, since it's obvious neither of you have more than the shallowest familiarity with actual cross-examination (regardless of how often you refer to it as "cross")...

Clearly, Tom and I do not impress you, but what should we make of Knox's lawyer, Carlo Dalla Vedova, and his "familiarity with actual cross-examination"?

Behold CDV's "objection" in the middle of GM's cross of Knox, June 13/09:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
CDV = C. Della Vedova
GM= G. Mignini
GCM= G. Massei

From Perugia Murder File (Audio #3, translation by "thoughtful"):

CDV? Can I make an objection? Very, very calmly and without animosity?

GCM: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you [for the calm, no doubt].
Thank you.

CDV? It seems to me that the pubblico ministero, in presenting his
questions, always makes references which go as far as actually suggesting
the answers, and also --

GM: Well it is a cross-examination.

GCM: Please, please let's avoid interruptions and let each person express
what he has to say. Go ahead, avvocato.

CDV? In the question he just asked, he mentions the memorandum and says it confirms. Now, this might be a specific question, but it should not be an
assertion on the part of the pubblico ministero, followed by another question.
If we look in the minutes, we find a series of unilateral declarations
which all go to show what interests the pubblico ministero. To my mind,
this mentality goes against our way of examining the accused. I just want
to make this clear.

GCM: All right, taking into account these remarks, the pubblico ministero's
question remains...
---------------------------------------------


I wonder what CDV meant by "our way" ...

 

[Chris C]

1) Here's an example near your neck o' the woods, Kevin (note: 1 of the 4 'pranksters' was a 17 year old female):

http://news.smh.com.au/national/four-escape-jail-over-dildo-rape-prank-20071129-1dp0.html

Four escape jail over dildo rape prank

By Todd Cardy
November 29, 2007

A group of four who raped a drunken male friend with a dildo while he slept and videotaped the attack have escaped a jail term.

The South Australian District Court heard on Thursday Brendan Phillip Hollands, Sian Catherine Whistler, David Kingsley McMahon and a 17-year-old girl had been drinking heavily on December 10, 2005, at Hollands' Aberfoyle Park house, in Adelaide's south...


2) Here's another example from Italian TV, no less (based on what we know about their ages, interests and maturity levels, it's not hard to imagine RS and/or AK finding it to their liking):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y-bntffHIY


Granted, there are 'relevant differences' with respect to these (easy to find) examples, but you cannot reasonably deny the 'relevant similarities'.

Relevant similarities? Did they slash the guys throat and have sex with his dead body?

 

[Chris C]

I wonder what CDV meant by "our way" ...

If I remember correctly the objection is because, the prosecutor is asking a question and giving the answer he seeks with the question.

An example would be: "You killed her, didn't you". Where as the question should be asked, "Did you kill her?"

 

[Diastole]

A few questions for Toto

If I recall correctly you have an interest in cross examination, what do you suppose might be the fate of a fellow like Curatolo if he were to be put back up on that stand? What kind of questions would you ask him were you a defense lawyer?

Mr. Curatolo, do you consume alcohol in any form? How much, how often and for how long? Have you ever suffered from delerium when you stopped drinking, or been treated for this? Do you experience blackouts when you have been drinking?

Mr. Curatolo, have you ever been prescribed psychiatric medications? For what condition? When were you diagnosed? Were you taking medication in Nov. 2007? If you stopped taking the medication, upon whose advice did you do so?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Totally agree with your last paragraph - but ... Instead of admitting they were wrong better go both ways..... I'll fully abide with the court's decision, how about you?

I will agree with the court when they fully exonerate Amanda and Raffaele. Nothing else will be acceptable. I know they are innocent.

The truth is on our side. There is no use in trying to convince the die-hard guilter crowd. We show photos, they claim they are photoshopped. We bring experts, they claim they are PR spokespeople. I have no connections with any PR firm. Doesn't matter, they don't care. They have absolutely no interest in the truth.

It will be a difficult task for the appeals court to stand up against this injustice. It will take a very strong voice. I am an optimistic person but I don't have much faith in any court in Perugia correcting this mess.

 

[Chris C]

Mr. Curatolo, do you consume alcohol in any form? How much, how often and for how long? Have you ever suffered from delerium when you stopped drinking, or been treated for this? Do you experience blackouts when you have been drinking?

Mr. Curatolo, have you ever been prescribed psychiatric medications? For what condition? When were you diagnosed? Were you taking medication in Nov. 2007? If you stopped taking the medication, upon whose advice did you do so?

Actually, I'm thinking the reason the charges were brought against Curatolo are because the prosecution dont want that information in the court. Its possible someone working for the defense team discovered the Heroin arrest while digging up dirt on Curatolo. So the prosecution had to charge him to keep the defense from asking him questions. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to testify about dealing heroin if he is charged. That would be some things they wont be able to ask him in court.

 

[Darat]

Thread is being closed - it needs a clean-out and since so many of you are apparently incapable of sticking to your agreements there may well be further action taken which may include suspension and even banning.

Posted By: Darat

 

[Darat]

Despite numerous warnings Members have continued to breach their Membership Agreement in this thread; following the clean-up mentioned above 9 people have been suspended and 2 have been banned. (See: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199601 and http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199602)

This thread has taken up a disproportionate amount of Moderating Team time and resources over the months so I have instructed the Moderating Team to inform me of any further breaches in this thread with a view to an immediate suspension or banning.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Alt+F4]

Wow, I feel so alone....

 

[billyryan]

Is it just me and alt left

 

[billyryan]

Hello anybody there

 

[Katody Matrass]

Wow, I'm still here

I was thinking about the glacial pace of the trials. I vaguely remember we were being told that court could only sit on Saturdays to accommodate Bongiorno's schedule. It was also supposedly a reason for the slow pace of the first trial. But didn't Bongiorno gave birth recently? By my understanding she's out of picture now, yet the trial slowed down even more, with next hearing scheduled for the middle of March.
I guess such tempo would be normal for some post-soviet republic but for a western democracy it's quite outrageous.

 

[billyryan]

Wow, I'm still here

I was thinking about the glacial pace of the trials. I vaguely remember we were being told that court could only sit on Saturdays to accommodate Bongiorno's schedule. It was also supposedly a reason for the slow pace of the first trial. But didn't Bongiorno gave birth recently? By my understanding she's out of picture now, yet the trial slowed down even more, with next hearing scheduled for the middle of March.
I guess such tempo would be normal for some post-soviet republic but for a western democracy it's quite outrageous.

I wonder how does Italies justice measure up in comparison to Egypt,not favourably I would imagine yet there is a million people on the street demanding change how or why have the Italian people become so cowed to accept this system of justice without a whimper

 

[Katody Matrass]

I guess it takes much more to get people on the streets than inefficient and unjust judiciary. It doesn't affect everyone in a way failing economy does. BTW there were some serious student protests in Italy in December.

I also think that the system somehow reflects the prevalent mentality. Meredith Kercher case is not the only one that raises eyebrows around the world. There's ongoing Sarah Scazzi murder case, with quite incredible scenario proposed by the police. I also remember when Machiavelli explained to me the Italian consensus about the Monster of Florence case. Basically they believe that the three village idiots really were hired by a super secret satanic cult of VIPs to carry on the murders and harvest body parts. There's no trace of that sect of course, that's how good they are in conspiring. The implication was that Mignini's pet conspiracy theory about satanic cult swapping bodies to throw off the investigation doesn't look that crazy to many people.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Honestly I've gone back and forth on her innocence since this thread started.

Ultimately I think it's unknowable for sure but I'd put my money on innocence right now.

I still haven't heard a good theory that ties together the three of them in a way that makes sense to me.

 

[christianahannah]

Wow, I'm still here

I was thinking about the glacial pace of the trials. I vaguely remember we were being told that court could only sit on Saturdays to accommodate Bongiorno's schedule. It was also supposedly a reason for the slow pace of the first trial. But didn't Bongiorno gave birth recently? By my understanding she's out of picture now, yet the trial slowed down even more, with next hearing scheduled for the middle of March.
I guess such tempo would be normal for some post-soviet republic but for a western democracy it's quite outrageous.

Is Hellmann accommodating a request by Raffaele's defense to hold trial when Bongiorno would be back from leave? Mid-March would be in that time frame.

I don't know that to be so, however, didn't Raffaele's defense make a previous request to slow down the pace of trial while Bongiorno was pregnant? Hellmann did delay the start of the trial, so it is possible this delay has also to do with Bongiorno.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Honestly I've gone back and forth on her innocence since this thread started.

Ultimately I think it's unknowable for sure but I'd put my money on innocence right now.

I still haven't heard a good theory that ties together the three of them in a way that makes sense to me.

Exactly my thoughts. While there is no complete theory involving all three of them, the scenario in which only Guede is the killer makes sense and fits all of the evidence. It's maybe more mundane and not that newsworthy, but it survives Occam's razor.

Apparently single killer doesn't satisfy the public, too. In Sarah Scazzi case we have both Michele and his daughter involved, in MoF case we have a team of 3 guys (not counting the vast satanic conspiracy). It's interesting that when the police manages to get false confessions they're not satisfied with single perpetrator and often get groups of three or more. The West Memphis Three, The Norfolk Four, 3 Picnic Friends in MoF case. In this case they were close to getting 3 completely innocent people convicted, if not for the unwelcome evidence against Guede that emerged.