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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Yes I scanned it - that is how I knew they have a procedure to prioritize certain cases. I now have a "To Do" from Alt to explain why AK & RS might get that treatment - when and if they file a case. So I will be rereading the cite in depth.:)

They appear to have no claim to prioritize their case. They aren't being tortured, they aren't in any imminent physical danger.
 
On this point I do believe her. She probably didn't remember what time she called her mother. All evidence indicates that she called her mother frequently anyway and no matter what one thinks about her guilty or innocence she was under much stress that day.

You have convinced me.
 
You have convinced me.

I was Amanda's age when I spent my first summer in Europe away from my mother. I called her all the time. When you call someone rarely, it sticks in your mind, not so much when its frequently.
 
the crease in the gloves

Stefanoni testified to changing gloves (how frequently may be up to debate, but that it was not filmed. I noticed in some of the evidence collection videos there are jumps in time and thought perhaps this might have been when gloves were changed.

Motivations page 204:

Christianahannah,

Bruce Fisher’s site has a nice series of photographs, all of which show the same crease in a glove worn by one of the forensic workers, possibly Dr. Stefanoni, collecting several evidence samples.

Barbie Nadeau wrote, “Sollecito’s attorney, Giulia Bongiorno, stopped the crime scene video several times to point out errors. For example, Stefanoni testified that she had changed gloves according to official investigation procedures, but Bongiorno stopped the crime scene video twice to show that Stefanoni’s bracelet and the fold of her glove were exactly the same before and after the time she claimed to have changed gloves. In another segment of the video, defense lawyers insisted that one of the officers used the same collection swab to swipe two different blood samples, but Stefanoni quickly explained that even if she had, it would not matter. ‘If the same cloth was used to collect two samples of different blood it would be evident in the data analysis,’ she said. ‘These samples match Knox and the victim.’”

This last statement by Dr. Stefanoni is especially bewildering. How does she know that the officer did not mix what were two separate samples, each of which had only one person’s DNA? However, it is not clear whether the sample in question is or is not one of the mixed DNA samples. Malkmus also posted a section of Ms. Nadeau’s book that deals with the gloves and the bracelet.
 
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This passage is what it appears you're referring to:

In view of the current backlog of cases, you may
have to wait a year before the Court can proceed
with its initial examination of your application.
Some applications may be treated as urgent and
dealt with as a matter of priority, particularly
where the applicant is said to be in imminent
physical danger.

I noted the qualifiers as well. However even in this instance a year is about par for the course between actions of even the Italian legal system regardless, and I think it not impossible this one due to it's prominence will get even more prompt attention. That there is reasonable doubt all over the Massei report in the opinion of many, and that it seems by reviewing the 'evidence' accepted by the court and the witnesses believed, along with the curious decision not to allow a change of venue considering the massive amount of negative publicity generated against the defendants the following article would seem to be the one appropriate to this case:

the right to a fair hearing in civil and criminal
matters;

In Italian civil court or with the ECHR?

The Court of Appeal had granted Patrick, for his fourteen days of unjust detention, 8,600 euro compensation. This is way more what he may have earned in fourteen days working his pub job. But now he feels so damaged that he appealed to the European Court of Human Rights, and for 516,000 euro!

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2010-12-11T23:50:00-08:00

Note this is interesting as it is from the 'soulless' Daily Mail article in which Patrick is quoted a number of times saying things about Amanda that were untrue, notably that he 'fired' her and why, and he later repudiates this account with the police in an Andrea Vogt article if I remember correctly.
 
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I have always felt that the Kerchers would probably be the first in line to speak with Amanda's and Raffaele's family should they be proven not guilty of murdering their daughter. However I can't understand why the Knox/Mellas or Sollecito families have never written a single letter of condolance, telling the Kerchers they feel so sorry for their terrible loss but that thay believe in their daughter's/son's innocence and that they hope the court proves it and the Kerchers eventually believe it too. It wouldn't have hurt.
It's a bit of an insult not to have reached out if they really believe in Amanda and Raffaele's innocence. I think the Kerchers did not have their minds made up until the trial was over and even then they were possibly not absolutely convinced, they just accepted the verdict. They could have been an advocate for stronger evidence or independant reviews etc. if the two accused's families had reached out to them.

Maresca. In Italy its considered a Hostile act for a family to higher a lawyer to represent them at the trial.
 
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Yes I scanned it - that is how I knew they have a procedure to prioritize certain cases. I now have a "To Do" from Alt to explain why AK & RS might get that treatment - when and if they file a case. So I will be rereading the cite in depth.:)

Of course, all this is somewhat moot. I'm pretty sure (not willing to place a massive bet yet though!) that Knox and Sollecito will not need to have recourse to the EHCR, other than perhaps in their subsequent actions against the Perugia police and prosecutors. Which should be fun.
 
Maresca. In Italy its considered a Hostile act for a family to higher a lawyer to represent them at the trial.

Also, it's a slightly facile analogy, but car insurers advise their customers to NEVER accept any responsibility or express any remorse/apology when they are involved in a collision with a third party - regardless of whether they (the customer) think they are blameworthy or not. The advice is to stick to a simple administrative matter of exchanging details, without any embellishments.

I suspect that one piece of advice that the Knox/Mellas family DID receive from either Dalla Vedova/Ghirga or the US Embassy was to not make any contact whatsoever with the Kercher family pending the final outcome of the legal situation. I think this would have been good advice, as anything said between the two parties might have had legal ramifications down the line.
 
Amanda's call to Mom and Raffaele pricking Meredith were two I mentioned previously that I believed were lies rather than confusion, forgetfulness, or false memories. Halides1 used the quote recently from To Kill A Mockingbird about being mistaken in their own minds. I don't believe this is the case with all of the contradictions and lack of memory.

Yes, when I first heard about this case and looked into it, those 2 lies are what stuck out most for me. That and the Patrick lie. Then after awhile I simple thought accorded to me. The police lied.

So when you look at Knox's phone lie, was she outright lying or scared to tell the truth because she would be accused of lying. She very well could have misunderstood when originally asked about the call, however was then forced to swallow the phone call lie to try and keep some of her credibility. Afterall she spent days telling them she was at Sollecito's and the police still accused her of lying. Plus according to her, they was rather abusive to her during interrogation.

The Sollecito knife story was obvious after only a few moments of actual neutral thought on the matter. The knife isn't the murder weapon. Yet the police are telling Sollecito it is the murder weapon and dna proves it. Sollecito is just simply trying to explain something in a way that would makes sense to himself. When presented with evidence that turns out to be false, any explanation of that evidence that tries to prove it is not false is a lie. Sollecito tried to explain false evidence to himself, so its going to be a lie.
 
I suspect that one piece of advice that the Knox/Mellas family DID receive from either Dalla Vedova/Ghirga or the US Embassy was to not make any contact whatsoever with the Kercher family pending the final outcome of the legal situation. I think this would have been good advice, as anything said between the two parties might have had legal ramifications down the line.

Yes but notice how its the pro guilt side wanting them to appologize. If Knox is found innocent, are the Kerchers/Maresca going to come out in public and say sorry that we spent 3+ years ruining your whole families lives because we believed your daughter killed ours, but we now know that to be not true. Nope they will keep on believing that Amanda was responsible. So why appologize for something you didn't do.
 
BTW, just how is the ECHR supposed to help in this case? The court does not act as a court of appeal for national courts; it does not rehear cases, it cannot quash, vary or revise their decisions.



Unlawful detention. If I remember correctly Knox/Sollecito both had been unlawful detained.
 
The correspondent's name is Imogen Foulkes, she's been with the BBC since 2004. Look directly under 'Urgently required'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8525524.stm

EDIT: Also why do you believe they handle 40K cases a year when their backlog went up 20K cases between 2009 and 2010? They had 120,000 backloged cases at the end of 2009, and 140,000 cases backloged at the end of 2010.

Maybe at the current rate of increased backlogged cases, 46 years from now it will take 46 years to get your case heard.
 
Ok that would be 42k-43k cases dealt with. They have 140,000 cases at the end of the year 2010. Again, at the rate of now 42,000 per year, if the case were first in line starting 2011 and things go pretty much in order, I need to lower my 3-4 years by a few weeks or so.

Actually I believe what she is arguing is that the 140,000 cases that are backlogged have already passed the initial review. So they are not part of the 41k per year. They are part of the cases that need judgement from the court, which is running around 1500 per year receiving judgements. So the real number you need to determine 46 years, are how many of those backlogged cases have passed initial review. Though if the backlogged number of cases waiting to get decided is 140,000, then it will take 93 years not 46 at 1500 cases per year.
 
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Yes, when I first heard about this case and looked into it, those 2 lies are what stuck out most for me. That and the Patrick lie. Then after awhile I simple thought accorded to me. The police lied.

So when you look at Knox's phone lie, was she outright lying or scared to tell the truth because she would be accused of lying. She very well could have misunderstood when originally asked about the call, however was then forced to swallow the phone call lie to try and keep some of her credibility. Afterall she spent days telling them she was at Sollecito's and the police still accused her of lying. Plus according to her, they was rather abusive to her during interrogation.

The Sollecito knife story was obvious after only a few moments of actual neutral thought on the matter. The knife isn't the murder weapon. Yet the police are telling Sollecito it is the murder weapon and dna proves it. Sollecito is just simply trying to explain something in a way that would makes sense to himself. When presented with evidence that turns out to be false, any explanation of that evidence that tries to prove it is not false is a lie. Sollecito tried to explain false evidence to himself, so its going to be a lie.

The two things that stood out to me were the e-mail home that Rose mentioned, and the fact that it was prosecuted at all, that someone didn't just retire the prosecutor. I found out eventually the latter wasn't an option, being as Machiavelli once posted to me that there was only one old guy in Rome with the power, and he'd never do something like that.
 
Yes but notice how its the pro guilt side wanting them to appologize. If Knox is found innocent, are the Kerchers/Maresca going to come out in public and say sorry that we spent 3+ years ruining your whole families lives because we believed your daughter killed ours, but we now know that to be not true. Nope they will keep on believing that Amanda was responsible. So why appologize for something you didn't do.


Interesting, and if the court stays their sentence or lengthens it, what will the all the FOAKer's say? No need to reply....
 
Interesting, and if the court stays their sentence or lengthens it, what will the all the FOAKer's say? No need to reply....

And if it is overturned, should the Kerchers appologize? Last i checked, knox/sollecito's family didnt hire lawyers and attack the kerchers.
 
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And if it is overturned, should the Kerchers appologize? Last i checked, knox/sollecito's family didnt hire lawyers and attack the kerchers.

Unfortunately much like politics, most people that participate in the discussions online will not change their position no matter how the appeal plays out. The damage has already been done. Those of us that have seen the actual facts of the case have little chance of convincing those who refuse to absorb new information.

What you see is a major drop off in those that post on the pro-guilt boards. Instead of admitting they were wrong, they just disappear.

I know your post pertains to the families apologizing to each other but I don't think anyone here is in any position to discuss how the families should handle this situation.
 
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I've been busy with moving house lately, but on a quick catch-up I really don't seem to have missed any startling developments.

Unless I missed it, it's still the case that no pro-guilt poster has anything resembling a coherent theory of the crime, any intelligent explanation of how Meredith could have been murdered by Amanda and Raffaele while those two were demonstrably at home using the computer, or any sensible reason to contest the corrected time of death or the computer evidence.

Nor have any of them managed to explain why they think Amanda and Raffaele are guilty, without having their claimed reasons immediately shown to be factually false or irrelevant.

As I've said before if you believe X but cannot give a clear and rational reason why you believe X, your belief is not rational. (This may come as bad news to people who cannot give clear and rational reasons for any of their beliefs, but those people need to learn that they are irrational some time and it might as well be now). That applies to any X, including "Amanda and Raffaele murdered Meredith".
 
Unfortunately much like politics, most people that participate in the discussions online will not change their position no matter how the appeal plays out. The damage has already been done. Those of us that have seen the actual facts of the case have little chance of convincing those who refuse to absorb new information.

What you see is a major drop off in those that post on the pro-guilt boards. Instead of admitting they were wrong, they just disappear.

I know your post pertains to the families apologizing to each other but I don't think anyone here is in any position to discuss how the families should handle this situation.


Totally agree with your last paragraph - but ... Instead of admitting they were wrong better go both ways..... I'll fully abide with the court's decision, how about you?
 
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Inter alia, the right not to be summarily dismissed, demeaned and degraded as "worm food."

Believe it or not, there are some very, very ugly people in this world that need such things spelled out for them.

You reminded me of something: Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges.

It's a nasty little phrase, attributed to a Roman statesman--Cicero I think--it can be used to justify more or less anything if conditions seem dire enough or the cause just enough. Perhaps at times that does some greater good, but no one ever forgets the excesses, those are with you forever. Being as I've been awfully critical of Italian jurisprudence of late, even to the extent of gleefully hoping the creaking rotting mess goes up in smoke in the near future for the good of human liberty and the Italians currently abused by it, it would only seem fair to remind some of what the above concept has sometimes led to in our own country, and some famous instances you probably remember reading about in law school.

What's the first thing they remind you about Abe Lincoln when giving you an objective assessment of his conduct as president? He suspended the writ of habeas corpus. Another fellow you might have learned about at one point was the guy who used the concept to move people around to places they didn't want to go because people were scared, I believe his name was Earl Warren. He's remembered for other things too of course, but he can't take his name off the other and there's still people pissed about it to this day.

Wars have to end sometime though, and then you get to live with the consequences of what you did, and those don't go away. Perhaps instead of looking to justify any behavior generally considered outside the bounds of civilized internet discussion due to an unfortunate phrase that outrages those who sometimes appear to be worshiping at a shrine, we could instead try to figure out what the prosecution might do in the event the bra clasp and 'murder knife' are tossed into the Tiber?

Now, last time you were here you seemed to be arguing that Rudy Guede had a closer relationship to Amanda Knox than previously advanced, and I've seen elsewhere that some think Raffaele Sollecito must have known Rudy as well. As in the event that DNA 'evidence' is thrown out there will be absolutely nothing tying either to the murder site, do you suppose the prosecution might forgo trying to put either in that room? Instead to prove conspiracy to cover up for their 'friend' Rudy Guede for whatever reason? The Italian posting about the Italian System at the IIP site suggested months ago that's what he thought would be the strategy of the new prosecutor, and with no actual evidence of either being at the scene that would seem a rational proposition.

As for the witnesses, which would you think might be kept by the prosecution? If I recall correctly you have an interest in cross examination, what do you suppose might be the fate of a fellow like Curatolo if he were to be put back up on that stand? What kind of questions would you ask him were you a defense lawyer? I'm no lawyer, but I do know something about questioning for other reasons, and I'm thinking some fun could really be had with that guy, especially with more recent revelations. Do you suppose the prosecution would really want to put him back on the stand, and do you think the risk worth it? Even last time he practically gave the defendants an alibi due to his rambling, which caused Mignini to have to extend the time of death about an hour, perhaps you'll recall that lead to an interesting debate here.

How about Quintavalle? He got accepted last time and wasn't singled out for 'special treatment' by Judge Hellmann like Toto was, thus I suppose his testimony might be intact for the current appeal. I would think if the DNA evidence is lost and Curatolo discredited, his claiming he saw Amanda lurking about his bleach the next morning might be of some value. I recall SomeAlibi making the point that early the next day there's a phone call and a music file played that belies the testimony they slept in that day. Perhaps the prosecution will work with this in order to try to prove some sort of clean-up? BTW, I read somewhere that at some point the next day Raffaele's computer assembled a music list called 'clean-up?' Was that true or just someone joking around?

As for the prospect of a clean up, outside the cursory swiping Rudy seemed to do in the murder room, I don't recall any evidence of a clean up at all, though I do recall odd mentions about it from time to time in Massei, but I never bothered to put them all together, though I read here that attempt was being made elsewhere, did anything come of it? Incidentally the current target of your ire has made a similar point from time to time, instead of playing the 'early bird' here maybe you could talk to him about that instead, being as he has read Massei very recently?

I'm just curious what they're going to do in that courtroom, and it doesn't seem to me that many are talking about it. They have wide latitude to press a different case than last time, and in the event the DNA 'evidence' goes missing they're still going to have to make a case, or just dismiss it and let them go home. What kind of case do you think they could make in the event of no ties to the murder room and no witness breaking their alibi on the night of the murder?
 
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