Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

Indeed Rose. That's why if RS and AK are not guilty of this murder than that makes their accusers wrong, not bugs, since as of yet I've seen zero evidence of a conspiracy and/or evidence tampering.

I recently re-read my first post on this board and was rather surprised to find I initially didn't believe the cops were necessarily corrupt, just deluded by confirmation bias. I still think the latter plays a bigger part than some people do, but there is so much evidence, both positive and inferred that I can't maintain that illusion.

For instance, I didn't realize it was actually true that Stefanoni had lied in court about the footprints testing negative for blood with the confirmatory test, and that it wasn't found out until the end of the trial that they actually had. That's huge! You don't 'forget' something like that, it would be far and away the best evidence of Amanda being involved in the murder. There's not many explanations available for legitimate bloody footprints made in a print comparable to Amanda's feet.

Another was that they'd fried the computers one by one, not all at once as I initially thought they must have. I could see the latter happening, but to destroy computer evidence doing them one at a time is past the point of extending the benefit of the doubt.

Also the absolute lies told about the interrogation. While I can't prove they destroyed the tapes, only infer it, it is possible to prove Monica Napoleoni lied about the interrogation simply by noting it does not include the 1:45 statement at all. Hard evidence refuting her sweetness and light version, which also failed to note she was merely one of twelve interrogators.

There are more...

 

[Chris C]

Seriously, was my question that hard to understand?

It's either in Perugia or it's not. Which is it?

Both

Lets say I lived in Dallas, which i used to. I could say I'm from Dallas. What part? Garland. Garland is also part of Dallas county. Just because a place/location is not physically within the city limits of a city, doesn't mean its not classified as part of that city.

 

[christianahannah]

Alt+F4,

Some examples off the top of my head are the lack of glove changing that Bruce documented at IIP, not opening up the knife, and not testing a stain that might be semen. However, I have previously commented on sample 164 on the previous thread. Charlie's list of selected DNA results said:

Rep. 164 Blood from wall of bedroom Not tested because of negative preliminary (quantification) result.

Note that this sample was apparently blood, yet the [DNA] quantification was negative, and the examination was discontinued. The knife tested negative for blood, yet the DNA test was done anyway. This bit of forensic bias could have been avoided simply by taking more knives into custody and testing them.

Stefanoni testified to changing gloves (how frequently may be up to debate, but that it was not filmed. I noticed in some of the evidence collection videos there are jumps in time and thought perhaps this might have been when gloves were changed.

Motivations page 204:

She added that one could not see the gloves being changed in the video footage because the purpose of the video was to document the technical activities and not the instrument handling processes such as the changing of gloves.

As for the stain on the pillow Stefanoni gave a reason for not testing it. The handprint was what led the police to Rudy.

Page 219:

She stated that the pillow was found half under the pelvis of the body. Analysis was not done on the pillow because it was considered more useful to use it for print analysis, whether of shoeprints or handprints.

Is the reference in this paragraph the same as you write above (Rep. 164)?

Page 191:

Another sample was taken from the wall in front of the door, which showed a streak of blood apparently made by a hand. An analysis was made on this sample in order to identify the genetic profile of the person who had left that very visible streak between the bed and the night table, perhaps leaving behind some skin cells in doing so. But the sample did not yield any genetic results.

While the test result for blood was negative on the knife, Stefanoni said it could not be excluded that there could have been blood on the knife.

Page 215:

At the scratch location, the presence of human blood was searched for, with negative results. "The test is negative," said Dr Stefanoni, "though, given the presence of DNA in very, very low quantity, it cannot be excluded, however, that there could have been blood, but it was not in a sufficient amount to show up even with a very sensitive instrument, such as the one we normally use for this test" (page 256).

A partial answer for Malkmus:

I am not sure how many knives were analyzed (at least three) and if any from the cottage were. Stefanoni mentions keeping the other knives separate from the Exhibit 36 knife.

Page 214:

[225] She stated that the other knives that were analysed were kept separate.

 

[Draca]

Pillow

Is it the pillow that was under Meredith? If not, where did this pillow come from? If so, why was the pillow not collected earlier? If so, how did the police collect rudy's palm print from the pillowcase? Also, if this is a photo from Dec. 18, why does the room look completely different from the bra clasp video?

I'm sure there are reasonable explanations for these questions and I should probably know them since I have followed this case for the past couple of years, but I am really confused right now.

el buscador,

It is the same pillow.

They collected the pillow case and also cut out blood stains from the actual pillow fabric in Nov. but didn't collect the pillow itself.

The room doesn't look different to me. The Bra Clasp video mostly shows the area by the desk. The chair is moved back near the desk by that time.

When the whitesuits arrive on Dec 18th the pillow is already in the closet, the chair is in front of the closet, the clothes are on the bed and the wardrobe doors are leaning against MK's bedroom door.

Here's a photo of them cutting a blood stain out of the pillow fabric in Nov. :
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=188661767824969&set=a.187378801286599.45660.106344459390034


** Can you all imagine what the video footage would be like for the 2 unsigned local police entries made before Dec 18th ?? Where the cops pile the clothes and move stuff everywhere ? The place was trashed by Dec 18th.

Draca

 

[Chris C]

While the test result for blood was negative on the knife, Stefanoni said it could not be excluded that there could have been blood on the knife.

Yeah and scientists still haven't ruled out God killed the dinosaurs. However, that is a common answer from Stefanoni when describing the evidence. Basicly what she is saying is we can't prove that this is the murder weapon, but we are going to say it is. Just like the footprints and sollecito's dna on the clasp. We can't prove it but since they are our suspects, we are saying its theirs.

 

[Chris C]

el buscador,

It is the same pillow.

They collected the pillow case and also cut out blood stains from the actual pillow fabric in Nov. but didn't collect the pillow itself.

The room doesn't look different to me. The Bra Clasp video mostly shows the area by the desk. The chair is moved back near the desk by that time.

When the whitesuits arrive on Dec 18th the pillow is already in the closet, the chair is in front of the closet, the clothes are on the bed and the wardrobe doors are leaning against MK's bedroom door.

Here's a photo of them cutting a blood stain out of the pillow fabric in Nov. :
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=188661767824969&set=a.187378801286599.45660.106344459390034


** Can you all imagine what the video footage would be like for the 2 unsigned local police entries made before Dec 18th ?? Where the cops pile the clothes and move stuff everywhere ? The place was trashed by Dec 18th.

Draca

I agree, they clearly entered between the first collection and 2nd collection and completely trashed the place, without taking any video footage and then want you to believe the crime scene couldn't have been contaminated when dumb and dumber rearranged the apartment.

 

[Kaosium]

I recall that Seattle declined to name a park after its sister city of Perugia. One hears a good deal about light rail. Maybe a light rail line could be named for Perugia instead.

Perhaps they could name it after this fine example of Italian transportation in their sister city. I especially like how the initials when pronounced phonetically express the sincerest wishes of all of us concerned over the fate of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

 

[simper]

I believe the evidence shows that RS and RG murdered MK and that while AK did not actively participate in the murder she is guilty of tampering with evidence and being an accessory after the fact.

Can you quantify what you mean by belief? The DNA evidence against RG seems to be overwhelming but the evidence against AK seems to be circumstantial at best.

What is the probabilty of

1) RG being a murderer?
2) RS being a murderer?
3) AK being a murderer?
4) AK being involved on the periphery or after the fact?

Assuming a 98/99% certainty required for a beyond reasonable doubt conviction I would not be willing to convict AK for murder and would struggle to convict her on the balance of probability with regards to her involvelment on the periphery.

 

[Magister]

Yeah and scientists still haven't ruled out God killed the dinosaurs. However, that is a common answer from Stefanoni when describing the evidence. Basicly what she is saying is we can't prove that this is the murder weapon, but we are going to say it is. Just like the footprints and sollecito's dna on the clasp. We can't prove it but since they are our suspects, we are saying its theirs.

Latest post from Frank


http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/

 

[Jungle Jim]

I did a Google search on "Perugia bus" and got a number of images in the search results. It seems buses in Perugia come in many colors and sizes. Try it its easy.

 

[Draca]

John Kercher's Mirror article.

John Kercher is a victim. It's clear from reading his Mirror article where he repeats Massei nonsenses, and even some old misinformation that didn't make it to the report. He's being fed lies.
If his lawyer was honest, he would inform him how shaky the case against AK and RS is. He would explain to him the weakness of evidence and told him that they are most probably innocent and one or the other appeal will make them free.

I don't think John Kercher wrote that article. It sounded like a TJMK person ghost writing it. It gives credit for the article - by Ryan Parry. JK may have appoved a response to the feedback from the Daily Mail article, but I don't think he wrote most of it. About a third way down the article changes to TJMK style. Starting at - As before,

Tell me we haven't hear this before:

"It is a revealing document which many people do not seem to have read."

"However, the head of *forensics in Rome, Patrizia Stefanoni, who conducted the tests, is one of the most respected in Europe, if not the world.""

"on a tap, a bidet and a box of cotton buds."

"Sollecito told police there had been no theft. But how could he have known?"

"the idea of contamination is refuted, since his DNA was not anywhere else in Meredith’s room."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/12/18/we-will-never-forget-our-murdered-daughter-meredith-kercher-by-her-dad-john-115875-22790628/


Katody, I do agree with your post. The Kercher family are huge victims of the justice systems failures during this case.

 

[Kaosium]

To all,

Concerning low template DNA profiling Bruce Budowle wrote, “Forensic DNA typing has been labeled the gold standard of forensic science (14,25). The methodology has been demonstrated to be robust, reproducible and reliable. In contrast, LCN typing has not been well developed and applied appropriately. Moreover, the validation studies do not comport with protocols, assumptions for calculating the weight of the evidence are in question, and the scientific literature recommendations are not necessarily in concert with practices. It would be a shame to abandon the standards in place for forensic DNA typing just to push the envelope with LCN typing.”

I found this an interesting paragraph as well, expanding upon the theme of the necessity of reliable standards for LCN DNA:

"A flaw with general acceptance as a metric on scientific validity is that it only requires stating that other labs use LCN typing—not how they use it. Yet, stating solely that others use it is pervasive among the LCN typing laboratories. It is analogous to saying “they have houses in New Zealand, they have houses in the United Kingdom—therefore the house I built in the United States is sound.” Soundness is based on how it was built, whether it was built to code, what materials were used, etc. The community does not know how LCN typing is being used by the LCN laboratories, as they proclaim their protocols are proprietary (15,16,17). This is an odd position because in numerous cases the LCN practitioners claim that the methods are the same as standard STR typing (except that the sensitivity is increased). Validation studies have been published, and the protocols must be in concert with these studies; otherwise they are not validated. In addition, the interpretation and statistical weight applied should be described openly, especially when the life and liberty of individuals are at stake."

Now if I recall correctly the lab that Stefanoni used was not even certified to process STR DNA, and I read recently something that suggested that Italy had not yet adopted internationally accepted standards at all. Regardless of whether the last is in fact correct, wouldn't it be odd if the lab she used to make a 'breakthrough' in DNA science at the 'cutting edge' of DNA science wasn't even advanced enough to realize that contamination is inevitable given enough of a sample, and didn't have measures in place to prevent it and logs kept to record it?

 

[Onofarar]

John Kercher is a victim. It's clear from reading his Mirror article where he repeats Massei nonsenses, and even some old misinformation that didn't make it to the report. He's being fed lies.
If his lawyer was honest, he would inform him how shaky the case against AK and RS is. He would explain to him the weakness of evidence and told him that they are most probably innocent and one or the other appeal will make them free.

Maresca is in so deep he cannot back out or see a way out - therefore he blindly goes forward and drags the poor Kercher family with him. After all if he told them the truth he would have to write off a six figure bill for services to date.

 

[Draca]

Maresca is in so deep he cannot back out or see a way out - therefore he blindly goes forward and drags the poor Kercher family with him. After all if he told them the truth he would have to write off a six figure bill for services to date.

It would be a beautiful thing if after Amanda and Raffaele are released the three families forgive eachother, realize who is to blame and join forces to sue the PANTS off of everyone involved in the debacle. ALL of them !

 

[Draca]

I agree, they clearly entered between the first collection and 2nd collection and completely trashed the place, without taking any video footage and then want you to believe the crime scene couldn't have been contaminated when dumb and dumber rearranged the apartment.

LOL !!

Dumb and dumber trash a crime scene.

 

[Dan O.]

Alt+F4,

Some examples off the top of my head are the lack of glove changing that Bruce documented at IIP, not opening up the knife, and not testing a stain that might be semen. However, I have previously commented on sample 164 on the previous thread. Charlie's list of selected DNA results said:

Rep. 164 Blood from wall of bedroom Not tested because of negative preliminary (quantification) result.

Note that this sample was apparently blood, yet the [DNA] quantification was negative, and the examination was discontinued.

Are you aware that they went back and resampled that stain in December? They stuck a big "W" on the wall next to it and using the best ILE technique they didn't even drop the swab. And just to be sure, they took out a knife and scraped more of the blood off the wall into another container.

 

[Onofarar]

And just who do you think is going to turn on that light? Pages and pages on this thread on how incompetent and corrupt the Italians are, so there is no logical reason to think that the appeal should turn out differently than the original trial.

Well this is interesting! Are you now in the same camp as Charlie W.? That this mess is going to require high level political pressure to resolve or go thru the lenghty process of an ECHR review.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

I believe there were a few more pictures posted at PMF shortly after the last appeal hearing showing the smaller ones as well. The ones I have seen pictures of previously were also of the smaller variety. This one just happens to be larger, or maybe it is a tourist bus.

There has to be some video footage of a guy wandering around Perugia taking video of his feet until he runs into the side of one of these buses.

 

[Onofarar]

Well we know there was at least one disco open that night, the one Rudy was at.

Which he WALKED to.

 

[Onofarar]

Dear All

I have been called naive. However, the title of this blog is “Discussion of the Amanda Knox case”. Unlike Injustice In Perugia site which is dedicated and run by people who believe that Amanda and Raffaele innocence this site as far as I can determine has no position either way it is an open forum, therefore, anyone with an interest in this case should be able to post their views freely.

I appreciate that you would rather not speculate about the future outcome of events. Others on here enjoy prognosicating. There is room for both approaches here.
BTW - I am still concerned about the AK defense team. The new member(s) are all in the background - not at the defense table. CDV and Ghirga did not show themselves to be particularly nimble in the rough and tumble of court testimony and seemed to react slowly to prosection tactics.