Taco Bell sued

[Emet]

I think it depends on if labeling is distinguished from marketing under the law. The thing is on the website, technically it's labeled "ground beef".

I don't know what the laws are concerning how things are marketed.

I presume the FTC will decide the case:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/policystmt/ad-food.shtm

 

[slingblade]

There's no such distinction under the law. It's "the seller" whether it's wholesale or retail. (I know from the butcher shop we were required to follow these laws)

The seller of the raw ground beef to the restaurant. That seller. Not the restaurant itself. No kitchen would have much to cook if they were prohibited from adding water to their food!

Is that honestly what you're trying to say here? That once a restaurant receives ground beef from its supplier, it is prohibited from adding water to it to cook it? That's absolutely not so.

The butcher shop isn't cooking the meat. It's the supplier to the restaurant. They do have to follow those regs, to prevent fraud. The restaurant is cooking. It can use all the water it needs, add it to any meat it likes, to cook it. Every restaurant I've ever worked in over 30 years has added water to the beef when making taco and burrito filling.

I think it depends on if labeling is distinguished from marketing under the law. The thing is on the website, technically it's labeled "ground beef".

I don't know what the laws are concerning how things are marketed.

Taco Bell labels its cooked product as "seasoned ground beef," because that's exactly what it is, after it is cooked according to their recipe.

There are many differences between the regulations a meat supplier has to follow, and those a meat-serving establishment has to follow.

 

[Emet]

In case anyone's interested, here's the lawsuit:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/70366868/Read-the-full-Taco-Bell-lawsuit-here

 

[Furcifer]

In case anyone's interested, here's the lawsuit:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/70366868/Read-the-full-Taco-Bell-lawsuit-here

Hehe, damn I'm good.

Aside from calling it the FDA instead of the USDA I think what I said is the gist of it. If they aren't using what amounts to a minimum of "regular ground beef" to make their "seasoned ground beef" they should be calling it "filling" not "ground beef".

A grocery store couldn't get away with it so I don't see how cooking it makes any difference.

(I just want free tacos)

 

[Furcifer]

The seller of the raw ground beef to the restaurant. That seller. Not the restaurant itself. No kitchen would have much to cook if they were prohibited from adding water to their food!

Well yah, but this is about listing the ingredients.

Is that honestly what you're trying to say here? That once a restaurant receives ground beef from its supplier, it is prohibited from adding water to it to cook it? That's absolutely not so.

No, it's about listing the ingredients, not making soup

The butcher shop isn't cooking the meat. It's the supplier to the restaurant. They do have to follow those regs, to prevent fraud. The restaurant is cooking. It can use all the water it needs, add it to any meat it likes, to cook it. Every restaurant I've ever worked in over 30 years has added water to the beef when making taco and burrito filling.

It's about listing the ingredients.

Taco Bell labels its cooked product as "seasoned ground beef," because that's exactly what it is, after it is cooked according to their recipe.

No those are the listed ingredients.

There are many differences between the regulations a meat supplier has to follow, and those a meat-serving establishment has to follow.

No a restaurant would be liable if they said on the menu they were using ground chuck but were using a TVP/ground beef mix right?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is this one of these questions of definition ?

The lawsuit alleges only 36% beef but Taco Bell say 88% BUT......

of that 88% meat, 30% is fat - leaving, by one definition a little over 60% lean meat.

Perhaps a (large ?) proportion of that meat is mechanically recovered meat slurry rather than prime cuts - lowering one definition (a particularly harsh one) of "meat" even further.

/Homer

Mmmmmm.....meat slurry....<slobber>

/

 

[slingblade]

Well yah, but this is about listing the ingredients.

The ingredients are clearly listed. I looked them up.

I know there has to be some confusion here of some kind, I just can't figure out where it's coming from or which one of us it is.

Perhaps this makes more sense now? The standard set out by the regulations say that "Ground Beef" with or without seasoning SHALL NOT contain more than 30% fat and no binders or extenders.

Based on what I'm reading they can't call it "seasoned ground beef" they should be calling it "seasoned taco filling", or "[something] made from ground beef".

Yes, they can call it "seasoned ground beef," because that's exactly what it is: cooked ground beef, mixed with seasonings and water.

The regulations you quoted say they are for the raw product, and pertain only to the standards for the raw product. There honestly is no regulation in effect for restaurateurs that says "you must call ground beef cooked with spices 'seasoned taco filling,' or 'filling made from ground beef,' if you add any spices or water to it during cooking. These additions mean the meat is no longer ground beef, and can no longer be labeled as such."

The filling is labeled properly: it is ground beef, and it has been seasoned. The ingredients of the seasoning mix are also clearly listed, and separately bracketed.

I would assume there are similar regulations for chicken. If so, does that mean that if I add fat to my chicken in my restaurant, I have to label it "fried poultry product," because the addition of fat for cooking violated the regulations regarding adding fat to the raw bird during processing, so now I can't call it "chicken" anymore?

 

[Furcifer]

Yes, they can call it "seasoned ground beef," because that's exactly what it is: cooked ground beef, mixed with seasonings and water.

No it isn't (allegedly). Ground beef can't have extenders or more than 30% fat.

Maybe if you thought of it the other way. Do you know what textured vegetable protein (TVP) is? It's a common vegetarian substitute for ground beef, horrible stuff. If you mix it 50/50 with ground sirloin you don't get ground beef. Whether you mix it then cook it, or cook them separately then mix them you don't end up with ground beef. If you add seasoning, 1 grain of salt or 10 cups of paprika you don't get "ground beef". You have to grind beef, and only beef, to get ground beef.

 

[gnome]

I tend to think that someone was trying to gain a PR settlement... and miscalculated. Taco Bell has doubled down, which would be foolish to do if the evidence isn't on their side.

It will be interesting to see the results.

 

[fetchbeer]

No it isn't (allegedly). Ground beef can't have extenders or more than 30% fat.

Maybe if you thought of it the other way. Do you know what textured vegetable protein (TVP) is? It's a common vegetarian substitute for ground beef, horrible stuff. If you mix it 50/50 with ground sirloin you don't get ground beef. Whether you mix it then cook it, or cook them separately then mix them you don't end up with ground beef. If you add seasoning, 1 grain of salt or 10 cups of paprika you don't get "ground beef". You have to grind beef, and only beef, to get ground beef.

You are quoting a regulation regarding the sale of raw meat and not a finished food product meant for human consumption.

So either stop quoting it, or show us where in the Code of Federal Regulations it says that Title 9: Animals and Animal Products, Subpart B—Raw Meat Products, § 319.15 Miscellaneous beef products, (a) Chopped beef, ground beef, actually applies to fast food restaurants serving food.

I don't want Taco Bell to also be sued for actually serving cooked meat in their tacos if they have to follow that regulation, as I am not overly fond of steak tartar.

 

[Furcifer]

You are quoting a regulation regarding the sale of raw meat and not a finished food product meant for human consumption.

Why would cooking it change what it is? If you cook a chicken it doesn't magically become a "turkey". A chicken is a chicken, cooked or walking around the barn. Ground beef is no more than 30% fat and no extenders, cooked or raw, seasoned or not.

The USDA has defined what is or isn't "Ground Beef".


Try using a little critical thinking. If I cook an egg, what is called? If I cook a t-bone steak what is it called? If I cook an apple what is it called?

It's pretty simple, if you cook filling, you get filling. If you cook ground beef, you get ground beef.

 

[Aoidoi]

Why would cooking it change what it is? If you cook a chicken it doesn't magically become a "turkey". A chicken is a chicken, cooked or walking around the barn. Ground beef is no more than 30% fat and no extenders, cooked or raw, seasoned or not.

The USDA has defined what is or isn't "Ground Beef".


Try using a little critical thinking. If I cook an egg, what is called? If I cook a t-bone steak what is it called? If I cook an apple what is it called?

It's pretty simple, if you cook filling, you get filling. If you cook ground beef, you get ground beef.

When I cook a chicken I get stir fry. When I cook an egg it's usually called an omelette. When I cook a cow I get steak (I use a space based laser system for efficiency). When I cook an apple it usually ends up as an apple pie, which contains many things other than apple. Can I sue McDonald's for their Apple Pies because they contain things other than apple?

When you cook a pig you get ham. And pork. I've never figured out why. I suspect the added heat increases the entropy of the words and therefore they change and multiply.

And "baby back ribs" don't contain NEARLY enough baby for the name to be accurate.

 

[Hellbound]

Actually, the link you posted, 3body, does not state it can only have 30% fillers.

It states, specifically, that it must be fresh or frozen (excluding cooked products), that it may contain up to 30% fat, and NO fillers, extenders, or anything else (meaning 88% would still preclude it from being ground beef, by your application). Also, why is that only found ina section specifically for raw products (regarding proper labelling), but not mentioned at all in the section regarding cooked products?

Additionally, the FDA themselves refered to it as "cooked ground beef":
http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/2006/ucm108803.htm.

Also, in reference to your comment on meat:

Meat.
(1) The part of the muscle of any cattle, sheep, swine, or goats, which is skeletal or which is found in the tongue, in the diaphragm, in the heart, or in the esophagus, with or without the accompanying and overlying fat, and the portions of bone, skin, sinew, nerve, and blood vessels which normally accompany the muscle tissue and which are not separated from it in the process of dressing. It does not include the muscle found in the lips, snout, or ears. This term, as applied to products of equines, shall have a meaning comparable to that provided in this paragraph with respect to cattle, sheep, swine, and goats.
(2) The product derived from the mechanical separation of the skeletal muscle tissue from the bones of livestock using the advances in mechanical meat/bone separation machinery and meat recovery systems that do not crush, grind, or pulverize bones, and from which the bones emerge comparable to those resulting from handdeboning (i.e., essentially intact and in natural physical conformation such that they are recognizable, such as loin bones and rib bones, when they emerge from the machinery) which meets the criteria of no more than 0.15 percent or 150 mg/100 gm of product for calcium (as a measure of bone solids content) within a tolerance of 0.03 percent or 30mg.

That's the FDA's own definition, which includes fat. Found at http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/pdf/9CFR301.2.pdf (parent page http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?title=200309).​

 

[Furcifer]

When I cook a chicken I get stir fry.

No you get a cooked chicken.

When I cook an egg it's usually called an omelette.

No you get a cooked egg.

When I cook a cow I get steak.

No you get a cooked cow.

When I cook an apple it usually ends up as an apple pie, which contains many things other than apple.

No you get a cooked apple.


You "make" a stir fry with parts of a chicken, you "make' a steak with parts of a cow, and you "make" an apple pie with parts of apples. Just like you "make" ground beef with parts of a cow.

You want the recipe?

When you cook a pig you get ham.

Really? You should learn to cook. I get bacon and sausage and chops and ribs and jowls and even ground pork.

I'd love to see you cook ribs and get bacon.


Nobody watches the Food Network anymore do they?

 

[Furcifer]

Actually, the link you posted, 3body, does not state it can only have 30% fillers.

Fat isn't a filler

Additionally, the FDA themselves refered to it as cooked ground beef:

This might be a defense, but since it's an unrelated investigation I don't see how that matters. They weren't asked to make a determination on whether it was "ground beef" or not.

 

[Aoidoi]

I'm terribly disappointed in that response. It's not nearly as entertaining as I hoped, AND you managed to selectively quote to utterly un-funny results.

Humor is hard.

 

[Hellbound]

Fat isn't a filler

I know, which is why I mentioned that. I can't figure out where you got the idea that the link you posted said it must be at least 70% meat. IT must be ALL meat, with NO fillers, extenders, or water added, and up to 30% of the meat can be fat.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I can't figure out where you got the idea that . . .

Do you really want to?

 

[Policenaut]

Oats are filler. Soy is filler. Fat≠Filler. Ground Beef is around 70% lean and 30% fat.

 

[Furcifer]

I know, which is why I mentioned that. I can't figure out where you got the idea that the link you posted said it must be at least 70% meat. IT must be ALL meat, with NO fillers, extenders, or water added, and up to 30% of the meat can be fat.

Where did I say that? I believe I made the distinction several times between protein (or lean), fat and fillers. If I did it was a mistake.

ETA: You're a liar, I never said that at all post #51:

"It seems to me if they are using the term "meat" to mean both protein and fat it would be misleading."

Why are you lying? Troll.