Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

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People speaking of "disco buses" may be referring to taxis, such as this one, which serves Perugian Discos, Red zone ,Country,Poco Loco,Mammut,La Villa,
Tu candela ,Velvet, Gradiska.............: Disco

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No, this is a private taxi service, which will pickyou up from wherever you want. It's distinct from the shuttle bus services, which are laid on by the clubs themselves, and which only pick up and drop off at Piazza Grimana.

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[Katody Matrass]

Mais où sont les neiges d' antan?

It looks as though the 'Q.E.D. set' has left the 'LOL set' to fend for themselves.

With which of those sets does the [403] set intersect ?

But seriously, any comments about the recent developments? What message did the prosecution make by jumping in protest against more detailed testing of the knife?

 

[LondonJohn]

1. Bruce Fisher says that there were no discos open on November 1, 2007. False.
2. Witnesses saw RG in a disco on November 1, 2007, in Perugia. You have no evidence that a bus did not stop at that location.
3. You concede that some discos were open on November 1, 2007.
4. You insist that no disco buses were operating on November 1, 2007 but present no evidence of this.
5. No one on this forum has seen any evidence regarding the differences between the city, tourist or disco buses as they were in 2007.

Yes, it is quite tiresome that you provide zero evidence for your claims.

Clear now?

You clearly have significant comprehension problems in this area (coupled with major geographic difficulties), so conversation over.

 

[LondonJohn]

For the geographically/intellectually challenged:

http://www.etoile54.com/consolle.html

Click the "contatti" link, and a popup comes up showing the address.

The club is situated off the Montebello exit of the main E45 road. It's actually South of the town of Montebello itself, and is about 5 or 6 miles outside the city of Perugia (although it still has a Perugia postal address).

Of course, those who still find themselves "challenged" by this information can always call the club directly, and ask them to email precise directions. Or they can continue to wallow in their own ignorance.....

 

[Chris C]

No, this is a private taxi service, which will pickyou up from wherever you want. It's distinct from the shuttle bus services, which are laid on by the clubs themselves, and which only pick up and drop off at Piazza Grimana.

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Funny how everytime Curatolo said something, he either changes his mind or it had to be partially interpreted differently.

I mean guilters need to face reality over Curatolo.
The guy is crazy, eventhough I know someone at PMF has a mancrush on him.
Inability to consistently give the same version of events of his supposed eyewitness testimony.
The guy is a Heroin dealer. If your wondering how serious an offense Curatolo committed. Here are some us state laws covering Heroin. He would charged with each offense he was caught with on tape.
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/mississippi/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/louisiana/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/texas/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/washington/

 

[LondonJohn]

Remember one thing about that bus. If I remember correctly SA was caught in a lie about when those pictures/video were taken.

Oh, I remember it well

 

[lionking]

Funny how everytime Curatolo said something, he either changes his mind or it had to be partially interpreted differently.

I mean guilters need to face reality over Curatolo.
The guy is crazy, eventhough I know someone at PMF has a mancrush on him.
Inability to consistently give the same version of events of his supposed eyewitness testimony.
The guy is a Heroin dealer. If your wondering how serious an offense Curatolo committed. Here are some us state laws covering Heroin. He would charged with each offense he was caught with on tape.
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/mississippi/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/louisiana/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/texas/
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/heroin/washington/

US state laws have great relevance, don't they?

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed off-topic remark

 

[Chris C]

US state laws have great relevance, don't they?

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed off-topic remark

Well in Italy, 1 count of selling narcotics(heroin) 6 to 20 years.

 

[Withnail1969]

US state laws have great relevance, don't they?

Lol. Yes I've noticed there are great differences in how heroin trafficking is treated by law enforcement world wide. How on Earth could it be relevant to show that another Western democracy has harsh penalties?

 

[Chris C]

US state laws have great relevance, don't they?

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed off-topic remark

Well I'm sure you filed a ticket. But I'll tell you why I brought it up. How many counts is Curatolo facing for selling Heroin for 3 months. At 6 to 20 years a pop, I'd say he doesn't have much choice but to do and say whatever Mignini wanted.

 

[Katody Matrass]

US state laws have great relevance, don't they?

Do you mean dealing heroin is not a serious crime in Italy? That would be quite surprising, isn't it? In your opinion it doesn't weigh on Toto's credibility as a witness? I'd say such opinion defies common sense and begs for some further explaining.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed off-topic remark

 

[Katody Matrass]

For the geographically/intellectually challenged:

But you haven't proven that Domus isn't 5 or 6 miles out of Perugia, too. What's 5 miles for Rudy to walk?

And even if it was in Perugia, let's say on Piazza Morlacchi (although you have no shred of evidence about it, don't you?) which is 300 m from Piazza Grimana, it doesn't mean that there were no buses there taking for a ride crowds unwilling to walk that 300 m, huh?
See? I destroyed your argument.

 

[LondonJohn]

But you haven't proven that Domus isn't 5 or 6 miles out of Perugia, too. What's 5 miles for Rudy to walk?

And even if it was in Perugia, let's say on Piazza Morlacchi (although you have no shred of evidence about it, don't you?) which is 300 m from Piazza Grimana, it doesn't mean that there were no buses there taking for a ride crowds unwilling to walk that 300 m, huh?
See? I destroyed your argument.

 

[RoseMontague]

[/hilite]

Just curious, what were the main reasons you thought they were more likely to be guilty? I recall you said it was the Massei report that changed your mind, do you remember just what it was that tipped the scales for you?

I always thought the DNA evidence was weak but just the shear volume of other evidence, primarily the crazy behavior and contradictory statements made by the two of them was a strong indicator of guilt. My initial reading of the Google translated Massei report of which I had a fairly early copy gave me a bad impression on his treatment of the three super-witnesses. The arguments he presented were one sided and his reasoning was not convincing. At this point I started to look into the witnesses more carefully and over time with some research and the counter arguments presented in both appeals I saw a confirmation of this as well as many other problems. I came to the conclusion that the court did not render a fair judgment and did not even attempt to give much of the defense position much less show why the court believed the prosecution over the defense on some of the issues.

I did think initially that Massei did an excellent job presenting the break in as staged. The break-in as well as Amanda's email to everyone and her forgotten call to Mom were the biggest indicators of guilt to me.

ETA: Shortly after I had Google translated the Massei report I became curious and was able to obtain copies of the appeals. I regret not making the Italian versions as well as my Google translations public as soon as I had them. I also regret that I did not have the resources to get a human translation done. I believe if I had started earlier I could have seen this accomplished by volunteers much as PMF did in their translation of the Massei report.

 

[RoseMontague]

Some helpful poster sent me these links to pictures of buses in Perugia. Still confused on the color coding.

http://www.redbubble.com/people/phi...ias-bus-station-italy-a-tilt-shift-simulation

http://www.perugiaonline.com/easy/umbria_buspgus.html

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/1510353394081476160RvYkXm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradydorman/4344788118/

 

[LondonJohn]

Some helpful poster sent me these links to pictures of buses in Perugia. Still confused on the color coding.

http://www.redbubble.com/people/phi...ias-bus-station-italy-a-tilt-shift-simulation

http://www.perugiaonline.com/easy/umbria_buspgus.html

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/1510353394081476160RvYkXm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bradydorman/4344788118/

The third link shows an inter-town bus, which only leaves from the Perugia central bus station, so that's out of the equation.

The last link shows the most current livery for APM municipal buses. It appears that between 2007 and 2010 APM phased out the yellow colour for municipal buses in favour of light blue. In 2007, I believe that the buses were yellow.

Either way, the municipal buses are clearly easy to distinguish from the white, unmarked buses that the out-of-town discos used to shuttle people from Piazza Grimana to and from the discos.

 

[Dan O.]

Is this what one would refer to as a tourist bus?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30800988@N08/5181998934/

I suppose in the dark it could be confusing.


Here is one of the city busses near the square: (link)

 

[CDHost]

where he seemed upset no one would understand why the Italian Courts would be outraged when we didn't hand over our CIA agents they convicted in absentia.

I don't blame him. We've signed an extradition treaty with Italy, which in theory means we trust their justice system do much that we do not review cases prior to acting on them. The same way that a Virginia court is considered to have done its job in Michigan without a need for review of a Michigan court.

The fact that Italy would try and convict in absentia is good reason for the USA to renounce our extradition treaty not to violate it. Which is essentially my opinion that neither Italy nor the USA has enough faith in each other's justice systems for us to have an extradition treaty. Because of this lack of faith, neither side honors them fully and we have an ad-hoc situation where no one can act in confidence. We probably should sign some sort of more limited extradition treaty which grants option review and just puts in place processes. Essentially what Senator Cantwell advocated for in this case.

Had an extradition treaty like that with processes that both sides were genuinely willing to follow existed Mignini wouldn't have had to make up a story that Raffaele and Amanda had a murder spree in mind and thus needed to be held, which is why they ended up breaking so many other laws. So in a sense Yummi is right.

 

[Chris C]

I don't blame him. We've signed an extradition treaty with Italy, which in theory means we trust their justice system do much that we do not review cases prior to acting on them. The same way that a Virginia court is considered to have done its job in Michigan without a need for review of a Michigan court.

The fact that Italy would try and convict in absentia is good reason for the USA to renounce our extradition treaty not to violate it. Which is essentially my opinion that neither Italy nor the USA has enough faith in each other's justice systems for us to have an extradition treaty. Because of this lack of faith, neither side honors them fully and we have an ad-hoc situation where no one can act in confidence. We probably should sign some sort of more limited extradition treaty which grants option review and just puts in place processes. Essentially what Senator Cantwell advocated for in this case.

Had an extradition treaty like that with processes that both sides were genuinely willing to follow existed Mignini wouldn't have had to make up a story that Raffaele and Amanda had a murder spree in mind and thus needed to be held, which is why they ended up breaking so many other laws. So in a sense Yummi is right.

See its an extradition treaty. For someone to be extradited it has to be a crime in both countries. If our government views what they did as not being a crime, they dont have to extradite them. They can absentee convict all they want. If the US government rules they committed no crime, then they dont have to extradite them.

 

[CDHost]

See its an extradition treaty. For someone to be extradited it has to be a crime in both countries. If our government views what they did as not being a crime, they dont have to extradite them.

What you are taling about is a "dual criminality" restriction, and I checked it is the very first restriction in our extradition treaty. The 23 agents were convicted of kidnapping. I don't know that the US has ever declared that it is legal for the CIA to grab someone off the streets and fly them to Egypt for torture. If they did then yes, we have no obligation to extradite.

Though if any of those agents were in the military, we do have a military exemption. And we probably should get back on topic. Though, rather then constantly having to worry about moderation, I started a JREF offtopic thread on my board which people can use for any of these discussions. This is meant to just be a big bin for that sort of rollover topics, feel free to start using it.