Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[CoulsdonUK]

RoseMontague\Haildes1

I meant no criticism of IIP just that its stated aim is clear and I guess people of a like mind can discuss their collective views; I am working my way through it though. My position remains that the appeal has not really started yet so I’ll wait and see what unfolds.

May passionate civil debate continue!

 

[Justinian2]

Discussion of how Amanda Knox's legal decisions should be presented

Your fake-British thing is wearing thin, but yes, you seem to think that those who disagree with you are in some way defective.

I believe the evidence shows that RS and RG murdered MK and that while AK did not actively participate in the murder she is guilty of tampering with evidence and being an accessory after the fact.

This is my lay-person's analysis of the evidence. If others disagree with me then that is their analysis of the evidence...it's different than what I think. It doesn't make them defective, evil, mentally ill, in a cult or sub-human in anyway.

I like people that present their information this way:

I think <opinion> because of <fact or extrapolation from fact>

Not like this:

I think <opinion> because of wolf, wolf, grrrr, snap, snap.

What make you think that I believe people that do that are sub-human?

 

[Kaosium]

So like Justianian, you also think that those who disagree with you are sub-human. Ok, got that.

I think you are drawing an unwarranted conclusion from limited data, are you trying to build a resume for the police in Perugia?

Alt, I always try to keep in mind that there is another human being on the other side of that screen and they are not evil nor stupid just because they disagree with me or post things I don't like. Were I to pretend I am always perfect in this regard I would be deceiving you, but at least I try.

As for the new review of the DNA evidence, what makes you think these new scientists are of a different mind-set than Stefanoni? Aren't they also in Rome, her home base? I'm sure the Italian DNA expert club is pretty small so it makes sense she probably knows these two professionally.

I think the conditions have changed since the original trial, however we will see if anyone wants to put their reputations on the line to further persecute these two college kids and go down with the sinking ship.

How specifically is the Italian judicial system dysfunctional? On what level? In Perugia or the entire nation?

I'll write a chapter on that in my book.

Just kidding, but it would really take a chapter to explore some of the problems I think are inherent to this system. To add to other comments on it I have made I will note that having to formalize the concept of guilty beyond reasonable doubt in 2006 is an indication that Italians themselves see that it is not necessarily producing justice.

You put the word forgot in quotes. Did they intentionally not record this?

Being as they recorded just about all the other witness statements, which would figure if they really rely as much on behavioral cues as Giobbi stated, I have little doubt it was actually recorded. Considering the conditions of the interrogation they set up I suspect the likelihood they failed to tape it approaches absolute zero.

How is this any different than what goes on in the U.S?

Is there a law in your area that police cannot question suspects without a lawyer present? In my area that is not the case, and going by things posted by Charley Wilkes and Halides amongst others it would seem there are numerous states where it is also not illegal.

Evidence?

On more than one occasion I have seen Halides post that Amnesty International report that criticizes the lack of recourse regarding police misconduct, and I know you are aware of Frank's views on "The Pack." I do believe there's a number of things such as the leaks, the destruction of evidence and the outright lies told without consequence in this case that suggest there is a lack of oversight of police.

No, that's not what happened here. If that was the case why isn't Frank in the slammer?

I meant one of the accused on the stand like Amanda or even her lawyers whom the prosecution also filed suits on.

They are lies and misstaments in your opinion.

It will all come out in the wash.

 

[LondonJohn]

Does anyone have any photos of: the disco buses, the city buses and the tourist buses? The tourist bus schedules and locations of pickups/dropoffs are online but I don't read Italian.

Disco bus (courtesy of SA):




City bus*:

http://www.redbubble.com/people/phi...ias-bus-station-italy-a-tilt-shift-simulation


I'd say it was pretty easy to tell the difference between the two. In addition, the out-of-town discos also ran minibuses. Tourist buses are totally irrelevant, since a) there were none running past 10pm, and b) Curatolo specifically "recalls" people waiting at Piazza Grimana for the disco buses.


* Lovely tilt-shift photography there: check out the work of Naoko Honji for some stunning tilt-shift images of London, Tokyo and Africa.

 

[Alt+F4]

Is there a law in your area that police cannot question suspects without a lawyer present? In my area that is not the case, and going by things posted by Charley Wilkes and Halides amongst others it would seem there are numerous states where it is also not illegal.

I live in NYC where the police might beat you with a phone book to get the statement they want. The Italian system is better, it's the law, in the U.S. the person only has to wave their right to a lawyer.

It will all come out in the wash.

Well it will be decided, one way or another....I predict by this December.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Amnesty International

How specifically is the Italian judicial system dysfunctional? On what level? In Perugia or the entire nation?

Alt+F4,

I have previously offered citations from Amnesty International and an organization of Journalists which cover these issues. If you have trouble finding them, please say so.

 

[Alt+F4]

John, your post about the buses doesn't have any photos or any links (that I can see).

 

[Alt+F4]

Alt+F4,

I have previously offered citations from Amnesty International and an organization of Journalists which cover these issues. If you have trouble finding them, please say so.

Say so!

But since you mention Amnesty International then it would be a condemnation against Italy in whole, rather than Perugia specifically. I don't remember Amnesty International ever making an accusation against a specific city, but I could be wrong.

 

[RoseMontague]

If you search for day trips out of Perugia there are many sites and schedules, difficult to figure out if you don't read Italain. The sites in English mostly link to links in Italian.

I see LJ found some pics at PMF, I was sure i had seen them somewhere else. I was playing with da Google looking for it and came across this which I thought was interesting:

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...YQFjAE&usg=AFQjCNHxVNg_gr46zbVCPFSgMtnISDJEdw

http://translate.google.com/transla...o&tl=en&u=http://www.umbria.angelipierre.com/

 

[LondonJohn]

Say so!

But since you mention Amnesty International then it would be a condemnation against Italy in whole, rather than Perugia specifically. I don't remember Amnesty International ever making an accusation against a specific city, but I could be wrong.

It's much, much easier for bad practice and/or corruption to become endemic in single institutionalised nation states. You will obviously have a very different experience in the US, where each state has its own set of institutions and associated practices, with a federal overlay which (in the case of the judiciary) only seeks to enforce best practice at a state level through the Supreme Court review of cases (those cases which are granted referral to the Supreme Court, that is.....).

 

[katy_did]

Disco bus (courtesy of SA):

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_402374d45eed18b817.jpg[/qimg]

LJ, I think that's a city bus isn't it? According to people who've been there, the disco buses are mini-buses. Perhaps SA made a mistake?

 

[LondonJohn]

John, your post about the buses doesn't have any photos or any links (that I can see).

The pics weren't uploading for some reason. I swapped one for a link to the priginal website, and compressed the other, so it's now fixed. There's no way that Curatolo (a 10-year veteran of bus-watching in Piazza Grimana, let's not forget) could have confused the two. No way.

 

[LondonJohn]

LJ, I think that's a city bus isn't it? According to people who've been there, the disco buses are mini-buses. Perhaps SA made a mistake?

I think they use both sorts (minibus and full-length). But both sorts are plain white, and easily distinguishable from the bright yellow, highly-logoed city buses.

 

[katy_did]

I think they use both sorts (minibus and full-length). But both sorts are plain white, and easily distinguishable from the bright yellow, highly-logoed city buses.

Hmmm, I'll have to check out the posts I'm thinking of on PMF. I'm sure the general consensus was that the disco buses had to be small so as to be able to get through some gate or other (in the city wall, I think).

 

[RoseMontague]

Hmmm, I'll have to check out the posts I'm thinking of on PMF. I'm sure the general consensus was that the disco buses had to be small so as to be able to get through some gate or other (in the city wall, I think).

I believe there were a few more pictures posted at PMF shortly after the last appeal hearing showing the smaller ones as well. The ones I have seen pictures of previously were also of the smaller variety. This one just happens to be larger, or maybe it is a tourist bus.

 

[LondonJohn]

Hmmm, I'll have to check out the posts I'm thinking of on PMF. I'm sure the general consensus was that the disco buses had to be small so as to be able to get through some gate or other (in the city wall, I think).

I don't think so. I think that's why they pick up at Piazza Grimana - it's outside the city wall. I don't think the disco buses go into the walled city area at all.

 

[katy_did]

I don't think so. I think that's why they pick up at Piazza Grimana - it's outside the city wall. I don't think the disco buses go into the walled city area at all.

This is one of the posts I was thinking of (from Fast Pete on PMF). I'm sure there are earlier posts saying the same thing, as this is a recent one:

The city buses cant get through that narrow city gate on the piazza and so on up to the discos which are half way up the hill. They are huge and made me laugh how they roar around. They do have ways to get to the top of the massif but not this way.

The bus in the photo looks about the same size as the city buses (or does it just look big in the picture?).

ETA: this is what thoughtful says about them:

The disco buses are referred to as "pullmans"; SomeAlibi posted a picture of one, I seem to remember. They don't look at all like city buses, and furthermore, they remain parked at piazza Grimana for well over half an hour in order to collect enough young people before leaving, which a city bus wouldn't do.

So that sounds as if the white bus is a disco bus, and also the other picture SA posted shows people standing around in front of it as if it's going to stay there a while, as thoughtful describes. Puzzling that it's so large, though.

 

[Chris C]

I live in NYC where the police might beat you with a phone book to get the statement they want. The Italian system is better, it's the law, in the U.S. the person only has to wave their right to a lawyer.

So Italy's system is better because in the US you have to wave your right to a lawyer? Yet in Italy they can deny you a lawyer, beat a statement out of you with a phone book, charge you with slander if you say something and then admit the statements in court even if the supreme court says their inadmissable by filing slander charges.

 

[Kaosium]

Actually, it is my understanding that Napoleoni will be testifying for the prosecution on some other bar owners that the cops spoke to that were open that night, never mind the no shuttle buses, and other possibilities with "other" buses in the city. It should be entertaining to see how far she will stretch this.

Is this to try to rehabilitate Curatolo? Dear Lord, I actually hope they bring him back into court. They must have something on poor Monica, she seems to get stinky end of these assignments.

They think they can, and they are calling the shots, at least for now.

I have followed too many of these cases in the US. I see how these people stick together, and back each other up no matter what. It takes years of bad publicity and increasingly hostile public opinion to get someone to intervene. The West Memphis Three have been in prison for the better part of 20 years, with every court in Arkansas saying that the trial was fair, when in fact it was a sham, and the evidence was overwhelming, when in fact it was nonexistent.

I'd never heard of it until I started reading about this case, I believe it was on this thread. I spent some time in (or near) Memphis too, and never heard a whisper. Do they always say they have a 'mountain of evidence' when it's really a pile of accumulated crap that really stinks to high heaven?

But, with this case we have the advantage that it has generated more publicity than any wrongful conviction since Dreyfus. The authorities will lose, in the end, no matter how desperately they fight. It's such a waste... there are no winners, just mounting losses on all sides. It's like a poker game where everyone bets on every card, everyone calls every bet, and sometimes the bets get raised and everyone calls the raises, but all the money goes into a burning fireplace instead of a pot on the table. Everyone walks away from the game broke and defeated.

When I finally decided to register after reading a great deal about the case I almost chose 'J'Accuse!' as my user name, but at that time I was only 90% or so convinced they were innocent, as I still thought it possible someone who'd followed the case much longer was capable of generating a theory that would square all the particulars and make a convincing case for their guilt, as I'd thrown up my hands in disgust as everything seemed backwards that way.

I see an analogy to Dreyfus in a different way as well, the longer this goes on the greater the consequences for the perpetrators of this debacle and the institution that allowed it in my opinion. A portion of the fallout of the Dreyfus Affair was to reduce the influence of the French Army in Third Republic politics due to the humiliation and curtail the last vestige of Boulangism (monarchist/militarists in the tradition of the Bonapartes) remaining in France. I suspect that the Courts in Italy may be risking a similar fallout, being as they seem to have lost touch with reality, and this case simply highlights that 'intellectual corruption' as CD Host recently relayed he'd read in The Economist.

I think it would have to get past the Supreme Court and get to the EU before they risked total immolation, but any further than this and they might just be 'living in a powederkeg and giving off sparks...'

 

[LondonJohn]

In other words, you really don't know. As far as I can see there is no photographic evidence showing the differences or similarities between the disco, tourist and city buses in late 2007.

The disco owners and bus people are scheduled to testify on March 12, yes? Until then no one posting on this forum can say with any degree of certainty that Curatolo is wrong.

I really do know.

The city (municipal) buses are bright yellow and contain logos and advertising. The disco buses are white and plain.

Curatolo is either honestly mistaken or a liar.