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Reincarnation as a trivial scientific fact

Transporter clones

Recently several threads have been dealing with the transporter paradox (see for instance). An excellent and entertaining summary of the problem represents a 10 minute video (here).

A more exhaustive summary of the underlying philosophical problem represents my text The End of Reductionism (see also posts #285, #321, #338, and #343).

On the one hand, consistent reductionist-materialist reasoning leads to conclusions such as:

If you think there is an experiencing self and that this will die in the transporter, you are inconsistent. You are just suffering from delusion. (adapted from)

One is not consistent if one thinks that something essential about one's identity (or experiencing self) would be lost if one stepped into the transporter. (adapted from)

On the other hand, such conclusions are simply absurd with respect to real life, as efficiently demonstrated in the above referenced video.

Let us imagine that nanotechnology and information technology has made enough progress to create more or less viable transporter-clones of animals, and that the first experiments involving humans are starting.

Then in a real world (where souls are as real as matter) this could happen:

After the technology of scanning bodies and creating identical copies has sufficiently advanced, somebody volunteers for such a human transporter project. His body is scanned at one place and this information is used to create clones at a nearby place.

The technology is continuously improved, and when sufficiently viable clones can be created, first incarnation attempts make sense. Then, at daytime the (body of the) volunteer undergoes deep anesthesia, and all participants can only hope (i.e. invest psychic energy) that the clone can be animated by the soul of the volunteer.

Only after several incarnations of clones and re-incarnations of the original body, the volunteer may feel completely comfortable in a cloned body. Then the project team together with the volunteer can decide that this time, the old body will be liquidated instead of being reanimated.​

And in a hypothetical monistically materialist world:

Also here, many attempts will be necessary for the first clone to be an unmistakable clone. Let us call the first human volunteering for developing such a transporter-cloning technology Nick.

The technology of scanning and creating copies of Nick is continuously improving. The first clones may not even start to breathe, and from the first breathing clone (e.g. clone #87) to clones resembling handicapped forms of Nick, still a long way must be gone. An important task of Nick will consist in helping to check whether the clones are not somehow defective (e.g. by lacking memories).

Now let us assume that clone 226 is the first 100%-success clone. Until now all clones have been liquidated, but this time the project leaders decide that original Nick finally can be liquidated instead of the clone.

Nick, after having dealt with so many near-clones, probably would no longer agree to commit suicide (with the poor consolation that clone 226 will perfectly well fill the gap created by Nick's death), and would propose that once again the clone should be liquidated instead of himself.​

Cheers, Wolfgang

From a logical point of view, (reductionist, atheist) materialism may be considered the most absurd religion (belief system of a relevant majority concerning origin and destination of life) of all times of human history
 
...Then in a real world (where souls are as real as matter)...

This is hypothetical, right? After all, there is evidence for the existence of matter. So for souls to be "as real as matter", you would have to be talking about a world very different from this one, yes?
 
... in a real world (where souls are as real as matter) ...
This is hypothetical, right? After all, there is evidence for the existence of matter. So for souls to be "as real as matter", you would have to be talking about a world very different from this one, yes?


One has to recognize that the world one perceives is only a projection of "the real world" on one's experiencing subject. And such experiencing subjects obviously are indivisible, discrete entities. Without experiencing subjects, there are no feelings, desires, pain sensations, perceptions, and concepts such as matter and materialism.

One could compare the experiencing subject with a computer screen, and the things we are conscious of with the things presented on the screen. Here it is obviously nonsensical to attribute more reality to the things presented on the screen than to the screen itself.

In the same way, it is illogical to consider the things we experience as more real than our experiencing selves.

The currently prevailing "scientific" materialism is essentially only a more sophisticated variant of naïve realism. Only what we can see (with or without the help of technology) is considered real.

Whereas materialist monism (reductionist materialism) is logically impossible, psychic monism (idealism) is logically consistent in the form of solipsism.

By the way, I have been playing time and again with the hypothesis that the world I experience is only my own imagination, because the role I play in my world seems to me a priori almost too unlikely to be true.

Cheers, Wolfgang

That we are unable to agree on whether the three 9-11 sky scrapers collapsed due to their own weight, or were pulverized by lots of explosives is a damning shame of modern society. A priori, there is a huge difference between collapsing due to potential energy as during earth quakes, or due to the energy of explosives as during controlled demolition. (The potential energy of a building is much less than the explosive energy used in controlled demolition.)

The main objective of Patriot Act was not to fight terrorists (the orchestration of post-9-11 was in fact rather a PR project to stimulate terrorism), but to fight those trying to uncover the criminal practices of the secret services.

The number of political decisions of democratic institutions caused by blackmailing could be far underestimated.
 
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So Woobie, two and a half years down this road and it would seem...

Reincarnation is neither trivial, scientific nor a fact.

Huge fail... /thread
 
Censorship on demographymatters.blogspot.com?

It seems that the concept of missing women has become a dogma, and is defended by the demographic establishment even by censorship.

From a blog dealing with the extremely low fertility in Taiwan (0.95 children/woman):

One major theme of my Taiwan posts here has been the very low fertility rate, for the main the standard combination of patriarchal cultural norms with the substantial emancipation of women. Another theme has been the sex ratio strongly biased towards men, producing a deficit of marriageable women.

The article ended with "thoughts?", and I wrote:

A "sex ratio strongly biased towards men" at birth is a natural consequence of a "sex ratio strongly biased towards men" at death.

One must not confuse "missing girls" with "missing women", as missing girls generally correlate with missing old men.

What exactly is the sex ratio at death in Taiwan in the recent past?

The author of the blog responded:

The sex ratio at birth in Taiwan was 1.09 boys per girl, decidedly in excess of norms and consistent with reports of sex-selective abortion in Taiwan (and elsewhere). The sex ratio for over 65s is 0.95 men per woman, a decided shift from the 1.03:1 ratio of 2003.

Then I clarified my position with something similar to (the answer has been removed from the blog, and I have no copy):

According to Taiwan Demographics Profile 2010, sex ratio of both the total population and the 15-64 age group is 1.02 male/female.

So the missing girls of the under 15 age group (1.08 male/female) have roughly the same number as the missing men of the 65+ age group (0.92 male/female).

And according to Summary of Census Population, in South Korea of 2005, only 66 men were confronted to 100 women in the 65+ age group. Nevertheless, despite this huge number of missing old men, the number of all women (23,575,784) was only slightly higher than the number of all men (23,465,650).

Is there any reasonable reason for removing such an on-topic answer from a demographic blog?

Cheers, Wolfgang
 
One has to recognize that the world one perceives is only a projection of "the real world" on one's experiencing subject. And such experiencing subjects obviously are indivisible, discrete entities. Without experiencing subjects, there are no feelings, desires, pain sensations, perceptions, and concepts such as matter and materialism.

One could compare the experiencing subject with a computer screen, and the things we are conscious of with the things presented on the screen. Here it is obviously nonsensical to attribute more reality to the things presented on the screen than to the screen itself.

In the same way, it is illogical to consider the things we experience as more real than our experiencing selves.

The currently prevailing "scientific" materialism is essentially only a more sophisticated variant of naïve realism. Only what we can see (with or without the help of technology) is considered real.

Whereas materialist monism (reductionist materialism) is logically impossible, psychic monism (idealism) is logically consistent in the form of solipsism.

By the way, I have been playing time and again with the hypothesis that the world I experience is only my own imagination, because the role I play in my world seems to me a priori almost too unlikely to be true.

Cheers, Wolfgang

That we are unable to agree on whether the three 9-11 sky scrapers collapsed due to their own weight, or were pulverized by lots of explosives is a damning shame of modern society. A priori, there is a huge difference between collapsing due to potential energy as during earth quakes, or due to the energy of explosives as during controlled demolition. (The potential energy of a building is much less than the explosive energy used in controlled demolition.)

The main objective of Patriot Act was not to fight terrorists (the orchestration of post-9-11 was in fact rather a PR project to stimulate terrorism), but to fight those trying to uncover the criminal practices of the secret services.

The number of political decisions of democratic institutions caused by blackmailing could be far underestimated.
Way to go with the thesaurus. You got all the buzzwords in. Total nonsense,but very entertaining.
 
It seems that the concept of missing women has become a dogma, and is defended by the demographic establishment even by censorship.

From a blog dealing with the extremely low fertility in Taiwan (0.95 children/woman):

One major theme of my Taiwan posts here has been the very low fertility rate, for the main the standard combination of patriarchal cultural norms with the substantial emancipation of women. Another theme has been the sex ratio strongly biased towards men, producing a deficit of marriageable women.

The article ended with "thoughts?", and I wrote:

A "sex ratio strongly biased towards men" at birth is a natural consequence of a "sex ratio strongly biased towards men" at death.

One must not confuse "missing girls" with "missing women", as missing girls generally correlate with missing old men.

What exactly is the sex ratio at death in Taiwan in the recent past?

The author of the blog responded:

The sex ratio at birth in Taiwan was 1.09 boys per girl, decidedly in excess of norms and consistent with reports of sex-selective abortion in Taiwan (and elsewhere). The sex ratio for over 65s is 0.95 men per woman, a decided shift from the 1.03:1 ratio of 2003.

Then I clarified my position with something similar to (the answer has been removed from the blog, and I have no copy):

According to Taiwan Demographics Profile 2010, sex ratio of both the total population and the 15-64 age group is 1.02 male/female.

So the missing girls of the under 15 age group (1.08 male/female) have roughly the same number as the missing men of the 65+ age group (0.92 male/female).

And according to Summary of Census Population, in South Korea of 2005, only 66 men were confronted to 100 women in the 65+ age group. Nevertheless, despite this huge number of missing old men, the number of all women (23,575,784) was only slightly higher than the number of all men (23,465,650).

Is there any reasonable reason for removing such an on-topic answer from a demographic blog?

Cheers, Wolfgang

What?
 
Louis XV of France & Silvio Berlusconi

Quote from Louis XV of France, Betrothal and marriage:

In 1721, Louis XV [15 Feb. 1710 – 10 May 1774] was betrothed to his first cousin, Infanta Maria Anna Victoria of Spain. The eleven-year-old king was not interested in the arrival of his future wife, the three-year-old Spanish Infanta.

… The Spanish infanta was too young to produce an heir. Thus, the Duke of Bourbon set about choosing a European princess old enough to produce an heir.

Eventually, the twenty-one year old Marie Leszczyńska, … was chosen. … The marriage was celebrated in September 1725.

Louis's marriage to Marie Leszczyńska produced many children, but the king was persistently (and notoriously) unfaithful. Some of his mistresses, such as Madame de Pompadour and Madame du Barry, are as well-known as the king himself, and his affairs with three Mailly-Nesle sisters are documented by the formal agreements into which he entered. In his later years, Louis developed a penchant for young girls, keeping several at a time in a personal seraglio known as the Parc aux Cerfs ("Deer Park"), one of whose inhabitants, Marie-Louise O'Murphy, was immortalised in a painting by Boucher. …

If it is actually true, that Silvio Berlusconi has "a penchant for young girls" and that he is maintaining a harem, then this Italian politician may be a serious candidate for being the current reincarnation of Louis XV of France.

Unlike many other leading politicians who primarily can only follow those controlling the mass media, "il Cavaliere" Berlusconi has his own mass media and therefore has real power (at least until now).

Cheers, Wolfgang

The huge psychological spectrum of current mankind can only be understood by studying the past of mankind
 
There are many men with "a penchant for young girls" and many of them are probably maintaining a harem. Thus the sole of Louis XV must have split into many bits and is inhabiting then all.

:dl:
 
Quote from Louis XV of France, Betrothal and marriage:

In 1721, Louis XV [15 Feb. 1710 – 10 May 1774] was betrothed to his first cousin, Infanta Maria Anna Victoria of Spain. The eleven-year-old king was not interested in the arrival of his future wife, the three-year-old Spanish Infanta.

… The Spanish infanta was too young to produce an heir. Thus, the Duke of Bourbon set about choosing a European princess old enough to produce an heir.

Eventually, the twenty-one year old Marie Leszczyńska, … was chosen. … The marriage was celebrated in September 1725.

Louis's marriage to Marie Leszczyńska produced many children, but the king was persistently (and notoriously) unfaithful. Some of his mistresses, such as Madame de Pompadour and Madame du Barry, are as well-known as the king himself, and his affairs with three Mailly-Nesle sisters are documented by the formal agreements into which he entered. In his later years, Louis developed a penchant for young girls, keeping several at a time in a personal seraglio known as the Parc aux Cerfs ("Deer Park"), one of whose inhabitants, Marie-Louise O'Murphy, was immortalised in a painting by Boucher. …

If it is actually true, that Silvio Berlusconi has "a penchant for young girls" and that he is maintaining a harem, then this Italian politician may be a serious candidate for being the current reincarnation of Louis XV of France.

Unlike many other leading politicians who primarily can only follow those controlling the mass media, "il Cavaliere" Berlusconi has his own mass media and therefore has real power (at least until now).

Cheers, Wolfgang

The huge psychological spectrum of current mankind can only be understood by studying the past of mankind

And how is this proof of reincarnation? Do you have any proof,we have been waiting for a long time.
 
One has to recognize that the world one perceives is only a projection of "the real world" on one's experiencing subject. And such experiencing subjects obviously are indivisible, discrete entities. Without experiencing subjects, there are no feelings, desires, pain sensations, perceptions, and concepts such as matter and materialism.

The last part is true. But that would not mean there would not be a universe. Even if percepetions did not exist, and concepts did not exist, the things that were perceived and conceptualized would still exist.

One could compare the experiencing subject with a computer screen, and the things we are conscious of with the things presented on the screen. Here it is obviously nonsensical to attribute more reality to the things presented on the screen than to the screen itself.

In the same way, it is illogical to consider the things we experience as more real than our experiencing selves.

In "monistic" theory, both are considered equally "real". It's just that in materialistic theory, we are considered as material beings, made of matter and subject to matter's laws and to no other.

The currently prevailing "scientific" materialism is essentially only a more sophisticated variant of naïve realism. Only what we can see (with or without the help of technology) is considered real.

Whereas materialist monism (reductionist materialism) is logically impossible, psychic monism (idealism) is logically consistent in the form of solipsism.

However, if "solipsism" is taken as an actual reality, then only one mind can exist by definition, and all the others must not. Who's mind is that?

By the way, I have been playing time and again with the hypothesis that the world I experience is only my own imagination, because the role I play in my world seems to me a priori almost too unlikely to be true.

Cheers, Wolfgang

And I can do the same with my own, and I have as much or as little justification as you to do so. Who's right?
 
On the one hand, consistent reductionist-materialist reasoning leads to conclusions such as:

If you think there is an experiencing self and that this will die in the transporter, you are inconsistent. You are just suffering from delusion. (adapted from)

One is not consistent if one thinks that something essential about one's identity (or experiencing self) would be lost if one stepped into the transporter. (adapted from)

On the other hand, such conclusions are simply absurd with respect to real life, as efficiently demonstrated in the above referenced video.

wagoga, are you ordinarily in the habit of stepping on your own position like this? Just curious.

First, of course, there is your existential confusion: the referenced video is a cartoon which tries to deal with an interesting philosophical question (and most of it can be rendered moot by postulating that any scanning mechanism destroys the original in the process). And yes, there are any number of alternatives, each with its own discussion. You need to read more science fiction - this is old stuff.

But the point is that if you think the video is real life, you need your meds checked.

As for your paraphrases, both of them are in fact consistent with the video.

1 - If there is an experiencing self, it does not die during the transporter process, but rather stays with the original. Since the copy seems to operate just fine, a new self was apparently generated.

2 - Again, the video does not indicate that anything essential was, in fact, lost during the process. Rather, that quality stays with the original and new "essentiality" was generated for the copy.

Finally, if you persist in calling the video "real life", you should consider that you have just shot down your psychron hypothesis. The video suggests that an indefinite number of copies can be made successfully (although that's not a good idea), so a psychron shortage is not a part of real life.

Choose your arguments more carefully.
 
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Even if percepetions did not exist, and concepts did not exist, the things that were perceived and conceptualized would still exist.


The sun, our galaxy and the rest of the universe will still exist, even if all (higher forms of) life has been wiped out. Nevertheless without conceptualization there are no stars, no galaxies and no universe.

We can imagine a world without life, but we cannot imagine a world independent from our perception and conceptualization. The world without human perception and conceptualization is Immanuel Kant's (in)famous thing-in-itself ("Ding an sich").

However, if "solipsism" is taken as an actual reality, then only one mind can exist by definition, and all the others must not. Who's mind is that?


Either I am an imagination of your world-dream, or you are an imagination of my world-dream. By definition it makes no sense to take someone else's solipsism serious.



Finally, if you persist in calling the video "real life", you should consider that you have just shot down your psychon hypothesis.


Why do you assume that I consider the video more than an interesting thought experiment? Is what I've written and referenced in #441 not clear enough?

The interesting point in the video is where two copies of the transporter-machine inventor are confronted with each other.

Choose your arguments more carefully.


Even if I advocate ideas you are prejudiced against, you should not carelessly assume that I must have committed logical errors.

Cheers, Wolfgang
www.pandualism.com

Consequential evolutionary thinking leads to the hypothesis that amino acid sequences folding today into proteins did not fold in the past, and that stable elements of today were once unstable (isotopes). Only in neutron stars, protons and electrons got accustomed to live together in very confined areas and to form unions called neutrons.
 
Why do you assume that I consider the video more than an interesting thought experiment? Is what I've written and referenced in #441 not clear enough?


Not an assumption, a straightforward conclusion. Your earlier statement in #441 made it clear that you think the video does reflect real life. And I quote (for the second time):

On the other hand, such conclusions are simply absurd with respect to real life, as efficiently demonstrated in the above referenced video.

Or have I misquoted you? Taken you out of context? The statement seemed clear enough.


Even if I advocate ideas you are prejudiced against, you should not carelessly assume that I must have committed logical errors.

Nothing careless here, wagoga, and no assumptions, either. Careful observation instead. And I notice that you have not addressed my criticism of your conclusions about reductionist-materialist reasoning. Sorry to be blunt, but you got it wrong.

An addendum. The reason your quoted conclusions are wrong in this case is simple - the hypothetical transporter featured in the video is fundamentally different from the one being discussed in your statements. As my mother used to say: PAY ATTENTION!
 
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As an experiment, after a brisk walk on a cool morning remove your clothing and jump into bed. It doesn't take long before warm air is wafting from the covers. Feel your skin it will be cold.

An atomic reaction is taking place within your body changing water to what it was made from H2O (gas). This heated excreting gas is made up of miniature nuclei containing a nucleus that has all the information of its parent. Contained in that water cell that changed to gas is the complete (including Memory) make up of you.

This aura (or con zillions of you) are now on an adventure of Evolution. Some of these will mutate on the body and can be detected by smell. If a bathing doesn't take place a good magnification will show things with legs (bed mites) (probably they will be Earths next dinosaur. Others of you are been dispersed where ever you are or go (its this Aura that a tracking dog homes in on).

Like Crop Circles an accumulation or Aura in a packed state can manifest into ghost. Most of these particles amalgamate with the Earths centrifugal force and are taken aloft to become the nucleus of a water cell (rain drop).

The moment you die a measurable 3/4 troy ounce of your make up including memory is recycled by the brain (reverse evolution were the orbiting nuclei of the nucleus is sped up in which each cell or particle is smaller than the last).

This 3/4 ounce of energy does not stay on Earth but is whisked out into space to be used some where, some time, some how by something. It comforts me to know that their will always be a part of me tucked away some where out there.
 

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