Merged Their Return

[King of the Americas]

But there is a difference between my speculations being built on what we do know was available and yours being based upon what we don't.
The possibilities I present are demonstratively possible.


But a guess as to how many people would be required over a guessed amount of time does not support your theory. You need to show that the blocks were cut in less time than you guess it would take or that there weren't enough people to do the cutting. Neither of these has been shown, in fact we know that time wasn't an issue for ancient cultures to build monuments, we also know that similar cultures had the man power required.

Find me this set of clay instructions, then we'll say they exist

You haven't read all of my arguments closely, have you?

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.

It isn't just about time here, but the amount of expert work present, REQUIRING a huge number of mastery level craftsmanship work a LONG time with hand tools.

OR

some sort of advanced technology working a shorter period of time

 

[King of the Americas]

So, you keep saying it can only be made with modern tools, eh?

...

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying that without modern tools/advanced technology, that this work would have taken a LOT, an army in fact, of mastery level workers, decades to complete. Moreover, that you'd need 2 armies of workers just sharpening and making tools...

 

[RoboTimbo]

I think templates have been mentioned quite a few times in this thread. Did you miss each mention or do you not know what they are or how they are used?

Templets made of...?

Templets are tracings. IF I ask you to cut out 10 pieces of PAPER using this templet, there is going to be a measurable difference between your 10 patterns. Don't believe me? Give it a shot.

Now, try using that templet to cut or shape 10 pieces of stone, and watch the difficulty compound...

Now, if you are going to suggest molds were used, then I think the work may start to match your theory of construction.

So I was right, you don't know what templates are or how they are used. Do you now believe that aliens must have given us templates also because you are ignorant of their use?

 

[Psiload]

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying that without modern tools/advanced technology, that this work would have taken a LOT, an army in fact, of mastery level workers, decades to complete. Moreover, that you'd need 2 armies of workers just sharpening and making tools...

You seem to be acknowledging the possibility that human manpower and time could account for the accomplishments that you had previously attributed to The Gods.. such as they may be.

Is this the case?

 

[EHocking]

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying that without modern tools/advanced technology, that this work would have taken a LOT, an army in fact, of mastery level workers, decades to complete. Moreover, that you'd need 2 armies of workers just sharpening and making tools...

Evidence? Including cites for estimates of time required, tools required and manpower?

 

[dafydd]

So I was right, you don't know what templates are or how they are used. Do you now believe that aliens must have given us templates also because you are ignorant of their use?

He was talking about templets,tiny temples.

 

[GeeMack]

Find me this set of clay instructions, then we'll say they exist

Find us a set of ascended beings, then we'll say they exist(ed).

You haven't read all of my arguments closely, have you?

It appears pretty much everyone has read all your alleged arguments. One of the first rules of communication: If you're trying to say something and pretty much everyone understands it differently than you intend it, it's your problem and it's your responsibility to repair the problem.

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.

You may believe you've shown that, but your flat out claim to have shown it is a lie.

It isn't just about time here, but the amount of expert work present, REQUIRING a huge number of mastery level craftsmanship work a LONG time with hand tools.

Yet you haven't even attempted to show how long it should have taken without advanced technology much less compared that with how long it actually took. Hint: A "LONG" time is not quantitative. It's a guess. And since guesses aren't in any way scientific, your argument based on the guess will continue to be dismissed.

OR

some sort of advanced technology working a shorter period of time

So? It took a LONG time. Nobody has shown otherwise, any arguments from ignorance notwithstanding. Your attempt to support the existence of "ascended beings" has failed.

 

[GeeMack]

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am saying that without modern tools/advanced technology, that this work would have taken a LOT, an army in fact, of mastery level workers, decades to complete. Moreover, that you'd need 2 armies of workers just sharpening and making tools...

Okay, so you're acknowledging that it could have been built by regular humans of the time. Good. Now we're getting somewhere.

 

[EHocking]

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.

Where are you getting this "60,000 farmers" from.

It doesn't gel with the summaries of the Tiwanaku civilisation that I have read. Or are you just exaggerating for effect?

 

[Psiload]

Find me this set of clay instructions, then we'll say they exist

You haven't read all of my arguments closely, have you?

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.

It isn't just about time here, but the amount of expert work present, REQUIRING a huge number of mastery level craftsmanship work a LONG time with hand tools.

OR

some sort of advanced technology working a shorter period of time

Keep in mind that you have already shown yourself to be a very poor judge of what constitutes legitimate examples of "advanced technology".

http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

---

So my mechanic and good friend has been telling me about this awesome device that he can install on my car, and could boost my milage and horsepower by 30%.

I saw him install one on a car, and was blown away by the immediate results. Not only did the car get better milage, but it ran more smoothly...

He and another buddy have been working to refine the model shown in the book, and they are getting really close to something they can mass manufacture.

Presently, they can create and install a model in a v-6 for under $300, and a v-8 for just under $400.

I have seen this 'work'.

The question now is, why isn't EVERYONE scrambling to get one of this installed???

 

[King of the Americas]

Where are you getting this "60,000 farmers" from.

It doesn't gel with the summaries of the Tiwanaku civilisation that I have read. Or are you just exaggerating for effect?

Didn't that number come from the MP3 linked...?

 

[GeeMack]

Didn't that number come from the MP3 linked...?

Having a little problem with your memory?

 

[EHocking]

Didn't that number come from the MP3 linked...?

You're the one quoting this figure and basing all your incredulity on - and yet you have no idea of it veracity?

Should I be surprised at this?

 

[King of the Americas]

Keep in mind that you have already shown yourself to be a very poor judge of what constitutes legitimate examples of "advanced technology".

You know, IF you ran the "hydronaters" with an independent battery, you COULD achieve efficiencies... Recharging the units with ambient braking, collapsable wind turbines, and solar cells...

And yes, I would call such units "advanced technology".

 

[EHocking]

You know, IF you ran the "hydronaters" with an independent battery, you COULD achieve efficiencies... Recharging the units with ambient braking, collapsable wind turbines, and solar cells...

And yes, I would call such units "advanced technology".

A derail, but this device does not work. Revive the thread on it if you wish to go another round on it, but not here.

 

[Yeah_Right]

Didn't that number come from the MP3 linked...?

I checked the website the link came from and no such number exists for the Puma Punku podcast. However this is from the transcript of the podcast, which in no way supports your position: " Pumapunku is often cited as evidence that Earth was visited by aliens, Atlanteans, or some other mythical people who are presumably better at stonemasonry than humans."

and

"We do not claim to know how the heavy lifting and exquisite masonry was accomplished at Pumapunku, but that's a far cry from saying we believe the Tiwanaku were incapable of it. We simply don't have a record of what tools and techniques they used. All around the world are examples of stonemasonry from the period that is equally impressive. The Greek Parthenon, for example, was built a thousand years before Pumapunku, and yet nobody invokes aliens as the only explanation for its great beauty and decorative detailing that more than rivals Pumapunku's angles and cuts. At about the same time, the Persians constructed Persepolis with its superlative Palace of Darius, featuring details that are highly comparable to Pumapunku. Stonemasons in India cut the Udayagiri Caves with megalithic doorways that are very similar to those in Pumapunku. The Tiwanaku did magnificent work, but by no means was it inexplicably superior to what can be found throughout the ancient world. It is unnecessary to invoke aliens to explain the structures."


You seem to ignore these aspects of the podcast.

 

[carlitos]

This would be a good time for you to find a post where I ignored the work present, said anyone could do it by hand, and that no advanced technology was employed. Good luck.

Saying the stones were sandstone is misrepresenting the work which you did twice 2 pages ago.

This mistake ignores the level of difficulty present.

You misstate my argument. I ask for clarity, and you remind me that the sandstone is made of sandstone? What the hell?

Then, you remind me that I mis-represented the difficulty of carving sandstone with precision? I never did this.

Dude, you have been asked about a thousand times how you calculated how much time this would take. Show the man-hours. Then, we could make some sense of your claim. You haven't shown any math at all. You're just incredulous, which isn't an argument.

 

[Stray Cat]

Find me this set of clay instructions, then we'll say they exist

Again, I'm not saying they did use clay tablets to make diagrams or instructions on, I;m saying they could have used them. Further I can provide evidence that clay was available and that for centuries before that different civilisations across the world were using clay for such things.

You haven't read all of my arguments closely, have you?

Yes, I have.

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.

Oddly enough someone (a chartered surveyor) once said that this crop circle would require a team of professional surveyors, four whole days to plot out:

And yet, when you do the math, it turns out it took 12 people 5 hours to not only plot out but to stomp down too... and all in the dark.

It isn't just about time here, but the amount of expert work present, REQUIRING a huge number of mastery level craftsmanship work a LONG time with hand tools.

What you are failing to consider is that ancient people's had a long time. Their lives were not ruled by Broadband speed, instant text messaging and fast food. In all ancient civilisations took a great amount of pride in doing things that were difficult to achieve.

Even if there were only one family of masons living in the village and they worked on it for several generations, taking more than 100 years to complete, it's still more probable than gods/demons/aliens did it then left and you have not shown that it was built too quickly for this to have been the case.

some sort of advanced technology working a shorter period of time

If you could show why advanced technology would be needed to do something that can be completed without advanced technology, or that the building was done in a shorter period of time than actual manpower (as opposed to guessed manpower) could account for, that would be helpful in supporting your speculation.

 

[Crossbow]

Find me this set of clay instructions, then we'll say they exist

You haven't read all of my arguments closely, have you?

I HAVE shown there weren't enough master masons, or enough people to support the building. 60,000 farmers didn't do this.

It isn't just about time here, but the amount of expert work present, REQUIRING a huge number of mastery level craftsmanship work a LONG time with hand tools.

OR

some sort of advanced technology working a shorter period of time

And a third possibility is that both these assertions made by 'King of the Americas' are wrong.

And considering how wrong KoA has been about so many different things, then I would say that KoA is wrong in this case as well.

By the way, there was about 1500 years between when the Egyptians first started building death monuments and the construction of the Great Pyramids of Giza, so they had a considerable body of knowledge by the time that the Great Pyramids were built.

Also, there is some good research which shows that the Great Pyramids could have built by a few thousand hard-working and well motivated people who were well organized and well lead by a few hundred very skilled craftsman and engineers.

 

[King of the Americas]

...

Also, there is some good research which shows that the Great Pyramids could have built by a few thousand hard-working and well motivated people who were well organized and well lead by a few hundred very skilled craftsman and engineers.

1 block every 9 seconds...to finish it in 20 years.

Is there an unreasonable period of time to considered, in regards to Pumu Punku?