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Water 4 Gas

King of the Americas

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K
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Nov 15, 2001
Messages
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http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm

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So my mechanic and good friend has been telling me about this awesome device that he can install on my car, and could boost my milage and horsepower by 30%.

I saw him install one on a car, and was blown away by the immediate results. Not only did the car get better milage, but it ran more smoothly...

He and another buddy have been working to refine the model shown in the book, and they are getting really close to something they can mass manufacture.

Presently, they can create and install a model in a v-6 for under $300, and a v-8 for just under $400.

I have seen this 'work'.

The question now is, why isn't EVERYONE scrambling to get one of this installed???
 
What makes you think it worked?

I could see that the system would act as additional air/fuel charge being sucked in, thereby raising the idle speed, making the casual bystander assume it was running better.

Others have been selling these systems. Whoops, they don't seem to sell the systems, only the books. Evading falsely advertising of a product, no doubt. (Like Gary Trudeau?) None have proven it scientifically. Did your mechanic do before and after dyno tests? Before and after mileage tests? Both, without any other tuning between the befors and afters? Were the test done by a blinded test facility?

To answer your "The question now is, why isn't EVERYONE scrambling to get one of this installed??? " Answer: they don't really work. Or everybody WOULD be installing them. Including O.E. manufacturers.

ETA,

And you know what else? The systems are NOT scalable with throttle. They don't make 20 times the Brown's gas at full throttle than they do at idle. So I doubt they make any improvement at road speed.
 
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casebro said:
What makes you think it worked?

I could see that the system would act as additional air/fuel charge being sucked in, thereby raising the idle speed, making the casual bystander assume it was running better.

Others have been selling these systems. Whoops, they don't seem to sell the systems, only the books. Evading falsely advertising of a product, no doubt. (Like Gary Trudeau?) None have proven it scientifically. Did your mechanic do before and after dyno tests? Before and after mileage tests? Both, without any other tuning between the befors and afters? Were the test done by a blinded test facility?

To answer your "The question now is, why isn't EVERYONE scrambling to get one of this installed??? " Answer: they don't really work. Or everybody WOULD be installing them. Including O.E. manufacturers.

ETA,

And you know what else? The systems are NOT scalable with throttle. They don't make 20 times the Brown's gas at full throttle than they do at idle. So I doubt they make any improvement at road speed.
Click to expand...

To answer your questions:

"Yes."

He has installed 6 devices on different cars and trucks, and with each one, witnessed increased horsepower and milage.

That said, no "Dyno" was used, simply because such a machine is unavailable.

He wired it into the engine's fuel pump electricity source, so that the more the fuel pump worked, the more the power the unit received.

On one truck the MPG went from 7 to 13.
 
I have a bridge for sale.

There are other threads on this scam.
 
King of the Americas said:
So my mechanic and good friend has been telling me about this awesome device that he can install on my car, and could boost my milage and horsepower by 30%.

I saw him install one on a car, and was blown away by the immediate results. Not only did the car get better milage, but it ran more smoothly...
Click to expand...

Is it possible that:

It got better mileage... because it had just gotten an overhaul from the mechanic.

It ran more smoothly... because it had just gotten an overhaul from the mechanic.

It wouldn't be the first time people have mistakenly attributed the benefits of a tune-up to a miracle gas saver. From the FTC:

"After installing your product on my car, I got an extra 4 miles [6.4 kilometers] per gallon [3.8 liters]."
Many ads feature glowing testimonials by satisfied customers. Yet, few consumers have the ability or the equipment to test for precise changes in gas mileage after installing a gas-saving product. Many variables affect fuel consumption, including traffic, road and weather conditions, and the car's condition.
For example, one consumer sent a letter to a company praising its "gas-saving" product. At the time the product was installed, however, the consumer also had received a complete engine tune-up - a fact not mentioned in the letter. The entire increase in gas mileage attributed to the "gas-saving" product may well have been the result of the tune-up alone.
Click to expand...
 
A couple big warning signs on the site:

1) No real science discussed -- The closest one can find to "science" is the assertion that this device creates hydrogen which "cuts" the gasoline droplet size, and even that assertion you have to dig for.
2) To be apprised of the technical details, you must buy the books -- having to pay money to someone before being given enough information to be able to decide for yourself about safety and effectiveness is a bit hokey, especially when you're being asked to risk not just the function of a car (which costs several thousand dollars), but your life (by riding in it).
3) Extraordinary claims, without extraordinary evidence -- The only thing this person has to back up his claims are anecdotes, which could easily have been manufactured. some of the extraordinary claims: Use of this device can allow you to, in a pinch, run your car without gasoline. Use of this device will "clean" your motor oil to the point that it becomes transparent.
4) Conspiracy theories -- http://www.water4gas.com/faq.htm#mozTocId287059 claims that persons attempting to create cars that run on water are bought out, threatened, or killed. This idea is even addressed more than once, and more than just in passing.

Personally, I'd stay as far away from this guy (and his "technology") as possible.
 
Pipirr said:
Is it possible that:

It got better mileage... because it had just gotten an overhaul from the mechanic.

It ran more smoothly... because it had just gotten an overhaul from the mechanic.

It wouldn't be the first time people have mistakenly attributed the benefits of a tune-up to a miracle gas saver. From the FTC:
Click to expand...

Except that none of these vehicles HAD gotten an overhaul from the mechanic...

The mechanic installed one on HIS truck, with NO other modifications and witnessed the improvement in performance.
 
SkeptiChick said:
A couple big warning signs on the site:

1) No real science discussed -- The closest one can find to "science" is the assertion that this device creates hydrogen which "cuts" the gasoline droplet size, and even that assertion you have to dig for.
2) To be apprised of the technical details, you must buy the books -- having to pay money to someone before being given enough information to be able to decide for yourself about safety and effectiveness is a bit hokey, especially when you're being asked to risk not just the function of a car (which costs several thousand dollars), but your life (by riding in it).
3) Extraordinary claims, without extraordinary evidence -- The only thing this person has to back up his claims are anecdotes, which could easily have been manufactured. some of the extraordinary claims: Use of this device can allow you to, in a pinch, run your car without gasoline. Use of this device will "clean" your motor oil to the point that it becomes transparent.
4) Conspiracy theories -- http://www.water4gas.com/faq.htm#mozTocId287059 claims that persons attempting to create cars that run on water are bought out, threatened, or killed. This idea is even addressed more than once, and more than just in passing.

Personally, I'd stay as far away from this guy (and his "technology") as possible.
Click to expand...

Well, 'I' saw the device installed, and witnessed the 'change' in the car's idle. The device picture in the book(s) are NOT durable or efficient.

However, with the knowledge, you can improve upon the basic design...

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What happens, 'scientifically' speaking, when you provide electric current to distilled water & baking soda?

IF the result is Hydrogen & Oxygen, then why would it be believable that you could port those gases into your intake and witness increased engine performance???
 
This is a very old scam, people have already gone to jail because of scams just like this.
One could argue, “hey we could use the heat being wasted of the engine to move a small turbine”, but that is not only small as it is neither what they are claiming to do (has they clearly state they hydrolyse the Hydrogen from the water).
Thermodynamics Law number 1, conservation of energy, which means the total energy remains the same and so implicates that 2 equal sates must necessarily have the same proportions of forms of energy. And so the energy you get from burning the hydrogen (which is back to H2O is case you had any doubt) is the same has you waste to get the hydrogen from the water in the first place. In fact you are wasting energy by the joule effect on the electrical apparatus and on the heat to dissipate the burning hydrogen into water vapour.
But because the general population is scientifically illiterate on the subject, they get easily fooled by having the apparatus rolling around in a way they don’t really understand (thus the reason for so many perpetual motion devices out there).
 
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King of the Americas said:
Except that none of these vehicles HAD gotten an overhaul from the mechanic...

The mechanic installed one on HIS truck, with NO other modifications and witnessed the improvement in performance.
Click to expand...

Okay, but then witnessed how? Was he at least using a scangauge or some such device?

It's devilishly hard to prove mileage improvements. He may just have been driving differently, for one thing; a subconscious response based on the expectation of improvement.

Aside from the implausibility of these devices, that most, if not all of them are scams, and the dearth of published data showing any efficacy, this is still just an anecdotal report.

Nothing to get excited about, but a whole lot of reasons to be suspicious.
 
TMiguel said:
This is a very old scam, people have already gone to jail because of scams just like this.
One could argue, “hey we could use the heat being wasted of the engine to move a small turbine”, but that is not only small as it is neither what they are claiming to do (has they clearly state they hydrolyse the Hydrogen from the water).
Thermodynamics Law number 1, conservation of energy, which means the total energy remains the same and so implicates that 2 equal sates must necessarily have the same proportions of forms of energy. And so the energy you get from burning the hydrogen (which is back to H2O is case you had any doubt) is the same has you waste to get the hydrogen from the water in the first place. In fact you are wasting energy by the joule effect on the electrical apparatus and on the heat to dissipate the burning hydrogen into water vapour.
But because the general population is scientifically illiterate on the subject, they get easily fooled by having the apparatus rolling around in a way they don’t really understand (thus the reason for so many perpetual motion devices out there).
Click to expand...

Once an engine is running, it is producing 'surplus' electricity.

You can jump a car off that has a dead battery, and once it is running, is begins charging said battery.

If your car is already producing 'surplus electricity', why NOT use it to create a little H and O, that once ported into the intake, INCREASES engine performance?

We aren't producing more energy, we are just using what we have more efficiently...
 
When researching this for an article, I was surprised and amused about how the same snake oil devices come up every time there's a spike in gas prices. They've been around for decades.

Doesn't anyone ask themselves why Toyota and GM don't just add these to their cars, and save them a few billion dollars in R&D?
 
Pipirr said:
Okay, but then witnessed how? Was he at least using a scangauge or some such device?

It's devilishly hard to prove mileage improvements. He may just have been driving differently, for one thing; a subconscious response based on the expectation of improvement.

Aside from the implausibility of these devices, that most, if not all of them are scams, and the dearth of published data showing any efficacy, this is still just an anecdotal report.

Nothing to get excited about, but a whole lot of reasons to be suspicious.
Click to expand...

Look, I fancy myself a skeptic, and had I not seen the evidence for myself I wouldn't be here today.

The device works.

I am here today to learn how to make it work 'better'.

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Questions:

Like what kinds of metal would work the best?

How should the submerged coils be configured?

Would using tap water make a difference compared to distilled water?

How many volts does it take to make the device work?

How do we 'test' the device to see how much H & O are actually being produced?
 
King of the Americas said:
Like what kinds of metal would work the best?
Click to expand...

Unobtainium

How should the submerged coils be configured?
Click to expand...

In straight lines

Would using tap water make a difference compared to distilled water?
Click to expand...

Distilled, and it has to have a homeopathic solution of gasoline in it.

How many volts does it take to make the device work?
Click to expand...
As many as it takes to screw in a light bulb.

(How many flies does it take to screw in a light bulb? Two, but you have to get them in there first.)

How do we 'test' the device to see how much H & O are actually being produced?
Click to expand...

Draw a little dial meter on a piece of cardboard and hold it close to the exhaust.
 
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King of the Americas said:
Look, I fancy myself a skeptic
Click to expand...
Well claiming to be one doesn’t make you one, neither a sceptic is free of mistake, and I must certainly doubt of your scepticism has you bough the idea while being a total nonsense (plus a sceptic doesn’t require to call himself to be a sceptic in order to make him more believable).

King of the Americas said:
and had I not seen the evidence for myself I wouldn't be here today.

The device works.
Click to expand...
Many of the perpetual motions, and by addition almost all the crackpots could swear whit both feet to work.
And since you mentioned on evidence, which evidence was that?

King of the Americas said:
I am here today to learn how to make it work 'better'.

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Questions:

Like what kinds of metal would work the best?

How should the submerged coils be configured?

Would using tap water make a difference compared to distilled water?

How many volts does it take to make the device work?

How do we 'test' the device to see how much H & O are actually being produced?
Click to expand...
This is pretty much pointless because thermodynamics already proved it to be impossible NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO!!
 
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Some skeptic you turn out to be, KotA. Don't you know that the plural of 'anecdote' is NOT 'evidence'? And with all of your anecdotes from one man...
 
Pipirr said:
Then you'll appreciate my asking: what evidence did you see?

What was it exactly that has you so convinced?
Click to expand...

I heard the engine run without the device, and then when it was activiated.

It ran more smoothly...

Then after a full tank of gas was used, the guy 'claimed' he got 6 mpg more.

What 'I' heard was a 'noticibly' smoother running engine.
 
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