Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[lionking]

I can't discuss this issue any further with you. Sorry.

That's okay. I can see that you only want to talk to people who agree with your position.

 

[Amazer]

I can't don't want to discuss this issue any further with you. Sorry.

Fixed it for you

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Stop constantly talking about them then. You don't really want them to be 'left alone', you want to wheel them out when it suits you to stifle arguments in favour of innocence.

May I remind you that you're also off-topic for this thread, which is about the innocence or guilt of Amanda Knox. Discussion of the victim's family's feelings is irrelevant to moving the thread forwards.

There many topics I simply read without comment.

 

[Chris C]

That's okay. I can see that you only want to talk to people who agree with your position.

If its not about money, then why protest looking at the knife? Its either that or your saying that Maresca, who is a lawyer not a prosecutor, would rather send someone to jail for 25/26 years then spend a couple days looking at a knife to see if it really is the murder weapon.

 

[RoseMontague]

If its not about money, then why protest looking at the knife? Its either that or your saying that Maresca, who is a lawyer not a prosecutor, would rather send someone to jail for 25/26 years then spend a couple days looking at a knife to see if it really is the murder weapon.

The Kercher's firmly believe that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. I would guess that they have instructed Maresca to do whatever he can to protect the first court's verdict simply because they do not want the verdict reversed or reduced. I don't believe they consult on individual pieces of evidence or strategies. It seems to me that Maresca feels that if there is nothing inside that handle it raises more doubt on the prosecutions case or he feels that the court may see it that way. I don't believe the Kercher's are wrong to do this or to pursue a civil action. I do believe their opinion on Raffaele and Amanda's guilt is wrong, however.

 

[Kaosium]

If its not about money, then why protest looking at the knife? Its either that or your saying that Maresca, who is a lawyer not a prosecutor, would rather send someone to jail for 25/26 years then spend a couple days looking at a knife to see if it really is the murder weapon.

Good point, especially as when the DNA retests were ordered Maresca said it was a "victory for the truth" and:

"The Court - argued the lawyer - wants to get to the bottom of these investigations. If in doubt do well to take them off. We'll see what the experts say. There are all the other issues - said Maresca - who have been rejected and then the decision at first instance was upheld. "

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/cronaca/2010/12/18/visualizza_new.html_1648668199.html

I guess he wants the truth on his terms. Not the whole truth, after all what could possibly be the harm in opening up the 'murder weapon' to see if there's blood where it damn well ought to be if it actually left the drawer that night?

What happened to the 'truth,' Mr. Maresca?

 

[RoseMontague]

Good point, especially as when the DNA retests were ordered Maresca said it was a "victory for the truth" and:

"The Court - argued the lawyer - wants to get to the bottom of these investigations. If in doubt do well to take them off. We'll see what the experts say. There are all the other issues - said Maresca - who have been rejected and then the decision at first instance was upheld. "

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/cronaca/2010/12/18/visualizza_new.html_1648668199.html

I guess he wants the truth on his terms. Not the whole truth, after all what could possibly be the harm in opening up the 'murder weapon' to see if there's blood where it damn well ought to be if it actually left the drawer that night?

What happened to the 'truth,' Mr. Maresca?

My understanding is that he opposed any retesting of anything and only claimed victory for the truth after the court granted additional testing. No doubt he will declare another victory if they open the knife.

 

[CDHost]

Is there a way to make it available to download or for youtube? Beacuse I can't watch it from there, it seems only Us viewers can.

http://www.mylifetime.com/movies/am...tended-preview?cmpid=twitter-lifetime-012611a

I'm sure you will be able to buy a DVD day after it shows on Lifetime. I don't know British TV but:

Lifetime's partent network is AETN = Arts and Entertainment Television Network
AETN distributes through "British Sky Broadcasting" which I think is rather large.

 

[Kaosium]

My understanding is that he opposed any retesting of anything and only claimed victory for the truth after the court granted additional testing. No doubt he will declare another victory if they open the knife.

Heh, that pretty much sums up Mr. Maresca.

I tell ya, of all the people involved in this case, the only one I cannot associate anything positive in my mind with is Maresca. I can for Mignini, Giobbi, even Rudy Guede of all people, but I draw a complete blank when I try to think of the Jackal and anything good.

There must be something about this guy involving this case that's decent, no one is all bad. Does he at least bandage his kittens after he tortures them maybe? Anyone?

 

[RoseMontague]

Heh, that pretty much sums up Mr. Maresca.

I tell ya, of all the people involved in this case, the only one I cannot associate anything positive in my mind with is Maresca. I can for Mignini, Giobbi, even Rudy Guede of all people, but I draw a complete blank when I try to think of the Jackal and anything good.

There must be something about this guy involving this case that's decent, no one is all bad. Does he at least bandage his kittens after he tortures them maybe? Anyone?

In my opinion he is the best lawyer of any of the parties to this case including the defense and prosecution as well as the other civil parties. Now "best lawyer" does not mean he is the best human being in terms of say, compassion and understanding. It could be that the opposite characteristics apply.

 

[Kaosium]

In my opinion he is the best lawyer of any of the parties to this case including the defense and prosecution as well as the other civil parties. Now "best lawyer" does not mean he is the best human being in terms of say, compassion and understanding. It could be that the opposite characteristics apply.

That would...ummm...be a negative in my mind, Rose. I knew I was on the right track regarding this case when I found out most of the lawyers were on the other side.

However, competency at least counts for something, and it's not like he's the most competent pedophile or anything.

Not quite.

 

[Withnail1969]

Heh, that pretty much sums up Mr. Maresca.

I tell ya, of all the people involved in this case, the only one I cannot associate anything positive in my mind with is Maresca. I can for Mignini, Giobbi, even Rudy Guede of all people, but I draw a complete blank when I try to think of the Jackal and anything good.

There must be something about this guy involving this case that's decent, no one is all bad. Does he at least bandage his kittens after he tortures them maybe? Anyone?

Maresca wants nothing to come between him and his cut of Raffaele's 2 million Euros, and he'll stop at nothing to get it; and of course 2 million is only the beginning. That's what all this is really about. That's why Rudy's role in the crime is minimised despite the forensic evidence and his confession to walking out while Meredith lay dying. That's why they're still clinging to this ridiculous group sex murder theory. That's why they need The Knife, and more importantly, the bra clasp. That's why the prosecution don't want the truth to come out.

The money explains the hate sites, the tireless internet spammers polluting comment sections on every Knox story with misinformation and the constant leaks against Amanda and Raffaele. It may explain how the DNA found its way to such unusual places.

Raffaele Sollecito is the real target here. Once you understand that, a lot of things start to make sense.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Good point, especially as when the DNA retests were ordered Maresca said it was a "victory for the truth" and:

"The Court - argued the lawyer - wants to get to the bottom of these investigations. If in doubt do well to take them off. We'll see what the experts say. There are all the other issues - said Maresca - who have been rejected and then the decision at first instance was upheld. "

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/cronaca/2010/12/18/visualizza_new.html_1648668199.html

I guess he wants the truth on his terms. Not the whole truth, after all what could possibly be the harm in opening up the 'murder weapon' to see if there's blood where it damn well ought to be if it actually left the drawer that night?

What happened to the 'truth,' Mr. Maresca?

Could it be because it is outside the scope of the request for re-examination, does anyone know what the defence actually requested? Was it an independent re-examination of the bra clasp and knife that was originally carried out by Dr Stefanoni and others or is there a request for new examination including dismantling the knife?

 

[Kaosium]

Maresca wants nothing to come between him and his cut of Raffaele's 2 million Euros, and he'll stop at nothing to get it; and of course 2 million is only the beginning. That's what all this is really about. That's why Rudy's role in the crime is minimised despite the forensic evidence and his confession to walking out while Meredith lay dying. That's why they're still clinging to this ridiculous group sex murder theory. That's why they need The Knife, and more importantly, the bra clasp. That's why the prosecution don't want the truth to come out.

The money explains the hate sites, the tireless internet spammers polluting comment sections on every Knox story with misinformation and the constant leaks against Amanda and Raffaele. It may explain how the DNA found its way to such unusual places.

Raffaele Sollecito is the real target here. Once you understand that, a lot of things start to make sense.

Follow the money, eh? Hmmm....I've wondered about that myself. However, why does it seem Amanda is the main target? At least that's how it always seemed to me, Raffaele is hardly mentioned, and Rudy almost never. Is there some sort of campaign against him going on in Italian or something?

BTW, where does 'Biff and Anita' come from? Is that a movie I haven't seen?

 

[Supernaut]

For those you who've never seen a colpevolisti 180 ...

... prepare to be amazed.

Back in late 2009, up to and for a few days after the verdict, 'Yogchick' (who is apparently a card-carrying liberal) sounded like just another guilter - in fact she strongly reminds me of our very own Fiona (apparently reasonable, rather than a frothing-at-the-mouth sicko - you'll find some of them as well in the 2nd link)

Try this; http://yogchick.blogspot.com/2009/12/seattle-democrat-examiner-defends.html, from Dec 16th 2009;

Anyway, fast forward a mere few days to Dec 20-21, and on the comments section for Madison Paxton's "She Didn't Do It" article for 'The Stranger' you can actually watch as the "scales drop" beginning c. comment #414.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/she-didnt-do-it/Content?oid=2929730&view=comments#3028865

(A word of warning - for some reason pages from these particular blogs can take an age to load on some PC's running Internet Explorer 8, but be patient)

 

[Supernaut]

Here's a short list, just 25 people, who must have either lied, been incompetent (in either memory or professionalism) or corrupt in regard to AK and RS's conviction:

1. Stefanoni
2. Curatolo
3. Mignini
4. Kokomani
5. Capezzali
6. Quintavalle
7. Comodi
8. Napoleoni
9. Zugarini
10. Maresca
11. Battistelli
12. Brocci
13. Rosignoli
14. Monacchia
15. Dramis
16. Lalli
17. Finzi
18. Torricelli
19. Cristiani
20. Romanelli
21. Altieri
22. Trotta
23. Norelli
24. Profazio
25. Ceccarelli

So we are supposed to believe that all of these 25 people, most who don't even know each other, are wrong in regard to what they know about this murder.

All of them.

Absurd.

History is littered with wrongful persecutions, convictions, punishments and executions, some recognised as such (whether at the time or later), many more that were and are not, and some that are happening right now.

Is recognising this to assert that they were a consequence of "conspiricies" amongst dozens or even hundreds of state-officials and laypeople? it is, according to your, er, reasoning.

The fact is, most were not a consquence of "honest mistakes" NOR of "consipiracies" (at least, not in the lame, perjoritive sense that you and your like use it), but of bigotry, dishonesty, cronyism and careerism - you might as well draw up such a facile "cast list" for any one of them.

(Here's some homework for you - try 'West Memphis Three'.)

The point is, of course, that many of those in your little list are employees of the police and judiciary (the state, if you like), and they behaved as any other 'jobsworth' would - they were given orders and followed them, which includes accepting and iterating their superiors' lies, running with them and passing them down the line.

The belief that AK and RS were wrongly convicted does not necessitate believing that everyone involved in their arrest/conviction was willfully telling lies on their own iniatiative - many were simply endorsing the same few, crucial ones that originated with their superiors, notably Mignini and Giobbi (not that there aren't several other bare-faced, gratuitous liars on your list).

In other words, not a "web" of lies, but a few pivotal ones that were propogated "from the top down" via underlings (whether the latter did so knowingly or otherwise), as has already been pointed out.

All of this aside, you are aware that there are many felonies for which the charges begin with "conspiring to ...", are you not? How about "conspiring to pervert the course of justice", which is probably the most common conviction by which corrupt cops and officials are disgraced.

Usually when such scandals break, a handful of the guilty are made examples of, which could be seen as an attempt to fix the system without actually breaking it (having to "reform" it), but the more cynical amongst us perceive that it is usually damage limititation, a distraction from the wider systemic corruption and cronyism that faciltated the crimes in the first place.

The only criminals involved in the arrest, trial and conviction of AK and RS are among the Italian Judiacry and police (along with one or two notable civilians).

 

[Chris_Halkides]

independent

Could it be because it is outside the scope of the request for re-examination, does anyone know what the defence actually requested? Was it an independent re-examination of the bra clasp and knife that was originally carried out by Dr Stefanoni and others or is there a request for new examination including dismantling the knife?

CoulsdonUK,

To my way of thinking "independent" means that the forensic investigators should go where their training and thinking lead them. The entire appeals documents have yet to appear in English, but short sections have been posted here.

 

[Withnail1969]

Follow the money, eh? Hmmm....I've wondered about that myself. However, why does it seem Amanda is the main target? At least that's how it always seemed to me, Raffaele is hardly mentioned, and Rudy almost never. Is there some sort of campaign against him going on in Italian or something?

BTW, where does 'Biff and Anita' come from? Is that a movie I haven't seen?

Amanda has a higher profile in the media, but of course Amanda and Raffaele come as a duo. An attack on Amanda is an attack on Raffaele.

Raffaele has been the target of the framing which has gone on. The Knife is his, making him responsible for providing the murder weapon. It's still claimed that the bloody footprint on the bathmat is his, when of course it matches Rudy. It was claimed that his shoeprint was found at the scene until his team proved it was Rudy's. The next day his DNA was 'found' on the braclasp.

Follow the money. Nobody's interested in Rudy. It's obvious why.

 

[CDHost]

I've never seen Kristian Stewart in anything so I couldn't judge. The only good thing I've heard about that series is '...and Buffy slays Edward, The End.'

Well we are off topic, but you will hear about her. Think Winona Ryder but a bit prettier, a better actress, without the cultural influence and even more tortured. Possibly she evolves into an American Marlene Dietrich. She's one to watch if she doesn't completely explode.

Twilight is rather a dumb plot. Tween, young teen girls have terrible taste in literature. But lets put it this way, her Joan Jett was so good there are songs on the movie soundtrack I think are better than the originals by the runaways. And authentic, wow, she had the mannerisms down.... And Bella Swan has given her the ability to pick roles and carry an audience with her.

She displayed some talent then, that could have been a tough role to make endearing. It wasn't enough to make me watch any more Harry Potter movies though.

You do not have children the right age. I've seen them all, and without the kids wouldn't have seen any. And my wife has read them all to our daughter. And with all that I can still say that Valdemort manges to combine the deep motivation of Michael Myers with the drama of the English Patient.

Emma does a good job of playing Hermoine as written. I agree with you Hermoine could have been annoying in the hands of a lesser actress, and Emma does a good job making her fun. Daniel Radcliffe gives a pretty good idea of how she stiff she could have turned out. But Helena Bonham Carter's, Bellatrix Lestrange (I know you haven't seen it) shows the difference between Emma's whose good and great. That being said I'd bet dimes to dollars Amanda would love being played by Emma Watson and frankly given what she's been through I don't feel bad hoping for that.

I think she would be a decent choice, but I'm hoping the next one will be based on the book Grisham plans to write, he'll get to the bottom of it. He knows cops, lawyers, politics...he can put it all in perspective. Done right someone should be able to get an academy nod portraying Mignini's decent into darkness.

That would be very good. I think the next one is essentially written though Michael Winterbottom's version, which supposedly is based on Barbie Nadeau’s critique of Italian justice. If I had to guess the story will be: Amanda probably did it, Italian justice sucks, and we'll never know for sure. But if the appeal starts to go well, and they can attack the Italian justice system even more....

However...then we get the 'accent wars.' Perhaps you're not aware, but it is the absolute considered opinion of every Briton in existence that no American can ever do a passable British accent. Thus, in revenge there's an element of Americans who absolutely insist that no Briton can do an American accent. It can be entertaining to behold.

True Kristian is from LA and that accent is close to the Seattle one. Vancouver might be the better choice to recruit an actress then.

One thing that I've been pondering is just what effect this first one will have on the case. What I'm wondering is, will the fact it is during the appeal will cause it to get some attention and create controversy, regardless of how it 'spins' the murder.

I think the Lifetime one is going to create controversy. What it might do is help the Knox thing cross party lines. Right now the Knox supporters, despite the claims of xenophobia, are still people on the left who are Europhiles. Lifetime might help this issue cross over to Republicans. Except for the fact that Amanda is a poster child for the Democratic party, this is a great issue for FOXNews. Alternately it could increase the number of people interested allow MSNBC (FOX for democrats) to run an hour long special. I'd say this movie has a 1:20 chance of causing the heat to go up.

In theory this is a great issue, FOX adores Berlusconi and would love to show off how terrible the liberals in Umbria are, and how bad Italian judges are.... Berlosconi would be via. FOX be able to get all kinds of dirt into the Italian media that he normally couldn't use.... I have to say Perugia/Mignini though Egan's blog was rough, wait till they get a taste of FOX.

Also, I wonder if just implying she might have done it would cause some media to seek out any of the numerous people currently campaigning against her incarceration.

Oh yes if this becomes an area of interest. Both sides get publicity. Besides Americans do believe in guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And I think the fact that the producers at lifetime and the cast couldn't figure it out means that after a jury of her peers examined the evidence there was a reasonable doubt.

 

[Supernaut]

Amanda has a higher profile in the media, but of course Amanda and Raffaele come as a duo. An attack on Amanda is an attack on Raffaele.

Raffaele has been the target of the framing which has gone on. The Knife is his, making him responsible for providing the murder weapon. It's still claimed that the bloody footprint on the bathmat is his, when of course it matches Rudy. It was claimed that his shoeprint was found at the scene until his team proved it was Rudy's. The next day his DNA was 'found' on the braclasp.

Follow the money. Nobody's interested in Rudy. It's obvious why.

I've always assumed it went without saying that Sollicito's money is what motivates Maresca.

You have to wonder if, in fact, this was actually conceived as what amounts to a kidnap/ransom.

I certainly don't believe that Mignini and his stooge, Maresca, expected the case to get the attention it did from abroad.

Mignini probably saw a couple of students as easy meat - who's going to care about them except their immediate families?

Personally, I hope this case ends up breaking them both (Mignini is long overdue some kind of breakdown - he's obviously avoided any kind of real introspection for his entire life).