Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[CDHost]

Drawing again on my knowledge of the OJS trial - in which one of the main fallacies in the prosecution's handling of the case was the emphasis on the domestic abuse of Nicole Simpson by OJ. Interviews with the female jurors after the trial indicated they dismissed this logic because "this kind of thing goes on all the time in families". Many experts felt this explanation was a justification of their dislike for Nicole for "stealing" a "black brother" from a "sister" - aka a black women.
Therefore, I just wonder if there was some resentment toward AK due to her relationship with RS?

I don't know Italy but I doubt it. Obviously if anyone has information rather than a guess jump in.

Resentment of cross mating is general caused when it happens unequally. For example Irish and Italian Americans don't resent each other. But:

• Black men date white and Asian women
• while black women generally don't date nearly as much cross racially
• white men date asian women while white women don't date asian men nearly as much.

The net effect is black women and asian men are resentful of cross racial dating. White men and white women because it impacts them equally tend to be quite tolerant. Black men and asian women because it raises their social status can be even more tolerant.

Foreign students, both men and women, want to have a cross cultural affair in Europe. I don't think you are going to have sexual resentment.

 

[RoseMontague]

I take homage at being implied a 'nutter'. The moon landing video should have shown jumps as high as 10-15 feet because of 1/6th gravity. One of the scientific discussions is whether the weight and stiffness of the suits could restrict the maximum observed jump to 10-15 inches.

I'm not a conspiracy person so much as a person that believes that government is deceitful, prone to error and prone to concatinate error and deceit.

The prosecution of Amanda and Raffaele has especially long chains of error and deceit.

The rate of descent from the point of maximum height would be a much better way to calculate the actual gravitational pull. Just giving it an eyeball estimate, I think they were probably on Mars instead of the Moon, no idea why they would try to hide such an achievement.

 

[RWVBWL]

I found the link to the video after. Mostly because he is back on to us as he is walking we see the white sole but at 24 and 27 seconds there appears to be a dark upper showing on the sneaker. It's easy to be mistaken with that video. You can also clearly see the quilting on the jacket at around 21-22 seconds and it doesn't appear to be a very heavy jacket. He also appears to be not so dark skinned and definitely has a sort of hat on with a slight brim. [hilkite]He seems to have a bit of a distinctive walk too.[/hilite]
Doesn't Rudy deny this is him?

Good day, Danceme,
You are very perceptive, for I too had noticed this persons' distinctive way of walking, especially since I myself have have a distinctice walk also, that 1 people have commented on for years.

I wonder if any one of Rudy Guede's buddies, say someone like Giacomo Benedetti,
-(who helped the police investigation by doing that Nov. 19, 2007 Skype conversation while Rudy was on the run and whom I remember seeing interviewed in an Italian TV program that someone here had posted a link to), has seen this CCTV video footage and has an opinion on whether or not that person is Rudy Guede...

Being neither a Republican nor a Democrat, but an Independant type of surfer, well I look at both the pro-guilt and pro-innocence sides of the story to help formulate my own opinions on what happened that horrible night that Miss Meredith Kercher had her life brutally taken...

And since many in the court of public opinion have believed that this person in the CCTV video was Rudy Guede on his way to murder Meredith Kercher, and I have now researched and debated this a bit, I believe otherwise...

So in closing, I wonder if anyone of Rudy Guede's friends have come forward to publicly state that the person with the distinctive walk in the CCTV video is or is not him...

The beach is calling as I watch the LA skyline get brighter with the new dawn approaching.
See you all later, have a good one.
RWVBWL

 

[Chris_Halkides]

just the facts

We were talking about someones comments about anyone that doesn't believe in the holocaust should go to prison for life. Then said person says today on PMF that Knox has converted to Catholicism and is another sign that Knox is guilty. I pointed out that atleast 2 people are hating on non jews because of their comments. Yet want to accuse Knox of being evil because she hates jews. Yet there is no evidence Knox hates jews, but there is plenty of evidence that those 2 people are hating on non jews. So in fact they are doing the very thing they are accusing someone else of doing.

Chris C,

Andrew Seliber, who is Jewish, spent his own money to testify on Amanda's behalf. End of story.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

jacket

Rudy's explains that the jacket he is seen holding upon his arrest was brought to him by his father while he was in jail in Germany. He sites the list of possessions when booked in Germany as proof. This is an easily verifiable claim so I will accept it unless it is refuted. Of course, as I've already posted, it is more than mere chance that the replacement jacket could be similar to the one disposed of.

Dan O.,

How would Guede's father be able to afford a jacket?

 

[Withnail1969]

Chris C,

Andrew Seliber, who is Jewish, spent his own money to testify on Amanda's behalf. End of story.

I think we can safely say there's no evidence that Amanda was racist, homophobic, or otherwise prejudiced. Being any of those things is potentially career-wrecking in today's society, and people should be very careful about making these kinds of unsubstantiated allegations in writing.

 

[Dan O.]

Dan O.,

How would Guede's father be able to afford a jacket?

Good point, maybe what we see in his hand is just an artifact of JPEG compression.

Since it doesn't make a bit of difference to Rudy's guilt whether he is in that car park video or not, it doesn't make any sense for him to construct an elaborate yet easily falsifyable lie to try and convince the authorities and/or public that it isn't him.

Maybe Rudy bought himself and his father matching jackets on another occasion when he came into some extra cash just before the end of a month.

Was there a photo or description of Rudy when he was booked in Milan?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Here's a short list, just 25 people, who must have either lied, been incompetent (in either memory or professionalism) or corrupt in regard to AK and RS's conviction:

1. Stefanoni
2. Curatolo
3. Mignini
4. Kokomani
5. Capezzali
6. Quintavalle
7. Comodi
8. Napoleoni
9. Zugarini
10. Maresca
11. Battistelli
12. Brocci
13. Rosignoli
14. Monacchia
15. Dramis
16. Lalli
17. Finzi
18. Torricelli
19. Cristiani
20. Romanelli
21. Altieri
22. Trotta
23. Norelli
24. Profazio
25. Ceccarelli

So we are supposed to believe that all of these 25 people, most who don't even know each other, are wrong in regard to what they know about this murder.

All of them.

Filomena About room being a mess
About glass on top of items
Meredith never locked her door

Dr Lalli failed to tie off the small intestine at various points, as correct practice would dictate.
failed to weigh the body, just took a guess

Umani Ronchi He therefore speculates (totally without foundation) that part of Meredith's pizza meal had already entered her duodenum, but that it had slid all the way through her small intestines to the very last loop.

Curatolo Lied about seeing the 2 murderers in the park, evening of Nov 1st, or mistook it for a diff night.

Quintavalle About seeing Amanda in his shop the morning after

Kokomani About his account with the three murderers

Capezzali The Scream

Hard drive Detectives Intentionally burnt out the 3 hard drives

Rudy Guday Too many to mention, apparently, the only truth this guy tells is if somehow benifits Amanda

Dr Stefonia Totally incompetant - forget the fact that she is #1 forensic scientist in Italy

Dr Mauro Bacci Said knife from RS's house was compaible with one of the wounds

Michele Battistelli and The two officers who said they arrived at Amanda's shortly after 12:30
Fabio Marzi Battistelli lied about entering the room

Robyn Butterworth Meredith's friends in Perguia told numerous lies to make Amanda seem guilty
Sophie Purton told many stories about Amanda's behavour
Amy Frost the wound on Amanda's neck
Natalie Hayworth Amanda being first to discover the body

Renato Biondo Head of the DNA Unit at Polizia Scientifica in Rome.
He commented that the DNA tests in this case were accurate and reliable.

Aida Colantone She also noticed a scratch on Amanda Knox's neck

Maria Dramis She testified at the trial that she heard the sounds of someone running the night of the murder.

Rita Ficarra An officer in the Perugia Flying Squad. She testified at the trial. She was present during the interrogation of Amanda, just before her arrest.

Armando Finzi An assistant in the Perugia police department who discovered the knife in Sollecito's kitchen drawer.

Fabio Gioffredi He claimed to have saw Meredith, Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy walking together on the afternoon of October 30, 2007. He testified at the trial in March 2009.

Alberto Intini Head of the Rome forensic police unit that supervises 14 regional offices, including the one in Perugia. In April 2009, he testified at the trial for the prosecution, defending the work of his agency.

Vincenza Liviero A medical examiner. In April 2009, she testified at the trial for the prosecution.

Antonella Manocchia In March 2009, she testified at the trial that on the night of the crime she heard a loud argument in Italian between a man and a woman, followed by a woman's scream. She lives near Via della Pergola. She told her story to the police more than one year after the event, at the instigation of a journalist.

Kate Mansey A reporter from the Sunday Mirror. In the days following the murder of Meredith, Raffaele told her his first alibi for the night of the crime: That he was with Amanda at a friend's party.
Carlo Maria Scotto di Rinaldi Owner of the lingerie shop where Amanda bought some underwear, accompanied by Sollecito, the day following the murder of Meredith Kercher. He testified at the trial.

Mauro Marchionni Meredith Kercher was sexually assaulted by more than one person, forensic scientist says

Giancarlo Massei The judge who presides over the trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Claudia Matteini One of the preliminary judges.

Laura Mezzetti

Paolo Micheli Judge at the pre-trial.

Giuliano Mignini The chief prosecutor in the case.

Daniele Moscatelli A police officer who testified about the questioning of Sollecito on the night of his arrest.

Elis Prenga An Albanian who claimed to have been raped by Amanda, sometime before the murder of Meredith. His story was entirely false.

Massimo Riccarelli A preliminary judge who described Amanda as “crafty and cunning”.

Robyn Butterworth, Amy Frost, Sophie Purton, Nathalie Hayward, Jade Bidwell, Samantha Rodenhurst, Hellen Power testified this morning and they all agree: at the police station anything goes. They, Laura and Filomena are all crying or sad. But Amanda makes jokes, swears, talks loud on the phone while walking through the room, makes faces, flirts and laughs with Raffaele, doesn't respond to a hug, talks that she's hungry, she's thirsty, she wants to go home, seats putting her feet on Raffaele's legs, describes the crime scene as if she knew it, boasts to be the one who found Meredith.
Francesca Torricelli A forensic geneticist who testified at the trial for the prosecution.

Marco Zaroli He was Filomena's boyfriend and a friend of Luca Altieri. He was present when Meredith' body was found on November 2, 2007.

Cell phone towers And they lie, and are not even human......

Raffeal Amanda was not with him the whole night

Patrick Demoted Amanda

Interpiter Nov 6th With holding information about Amanda being cuffed by police.


And this is nowhere near all the ones they have talked about - truthfully, only they can compile the list and it will be 20 times larger than this one.

 

[Withnail1969]

And this is nowhere near all the ones they have talked about - truthfully, only they can compile the list and it will be 20 times larger than this one.

But surely in the case of any wrongful conviction a similarly sized list could be drawn up. Look at the Guildford Four or the Birmingham Six. Massive cases which went to appeal - there must have been hundreds of police, court officials, witnesses and scientists involved with both.

This attempt to say 'well of course they are guilty, look at all these people who would have to be wrong or lying if they're innocent' simply doesn't work unless you believe no wrongful convictions have ever occurred. It's a non-argument.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

number one?

F
Dr Stefonia Totally incompetant - forget the fact that she is #1 forensic scientist in Italy

Sherlock Holmes,

What is the basis for saying that Dr. Stefanoni is the number one forensic scientist in Italy? What textbook or research papers has she published? What is her actual training in forensics?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

It's a non-argument.

It is a non-argument to anyone who wants to believe in their innocents, but not so to those that feel she is guilty. Yes, they all won't be correct, some may lie or made mistakes, but not anywhere near all of them, the list is far too large.

 

[Justinian2]

[...]I think they were probably on Mars instead of the Moon[...]

Perugia is on a low gravity planet also, judging by the tremendous leaps of logic taken by Mignini and Massei.

 

[Withnail1969]

It is a non-argument to anyone who wants to believe in their innocents, but not so to those that feel she is guilty. Yes, they all won't be correct, some may lie or made mistakes, but not anywhere near all of them, the list is far too large.

I don't want to go through your list in detail, but a lot of the things on it seem to be just misinformation or meaningless. Regardless, you have no backup for your claim that this list is any bigger than similiar lists which could be made in other cases of wrongful conviction.

 

[Dan O.]

Sherlock Holmes,

What is the basis for saying that Dr. Stefanoni is the number one forensic scientist in Italy?

If I wanted to insult Italy as a whole, I would make such a claim.


But instead, I reiterate one of my earliest questions: Is that "Dr" prefix deserved?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

credentials and work experience

If I wanted to insult Italy as a whole, I would make such a claim.


But instead, I reiterate one of my earliest questions: Is that "Dr" prefix deserved?

Dan O.

I was under the impression that she holds an M.D. and was a coroner, but I do not have a citation. Fiona reported that she had identified bodies via DNA after the Asian Tsunami of some half dozen years ago.

 

[RoseMontague]

Sorry if I missed the CCTV video of Not-Guede discussion. Is this the picture that represents that video. If so, I think this person is certainly not Rudy:

 

[Withnail1969]

Dan O.

I was under the impression that she holds an M.D. and was a coroner, but I do not have a citation. Fiona reported that she had identified bodies via DNA after the Asian Tsunami of some half dozen years ago.

In Italy the title 'Doctor' ('Dottore') is given to anyone who has a university degree so it may not mean much.

 

[Fine]

The family of the murder victim did not ask for this case to be handled privately. They were perfectly OK with a massive PR campaign. If in 2007 there were petitioning for a quick plea bargain so that everyone could get on with their lives that would be one thing. But they felt perfectly OK with a campaign on demonization. They like Mignini are unhappy this has turned into a fair fight with the defense actually hitting back in the public sphere. Usually the accused doesn't have a public network of support.

But... in cases like the murder of Konerak Sinthasomphone no one hesitated to discuss the sexual details of his demise. And that was a case where there was no doubt about the perp, nor any doubt he was getting a life without parole sentence. Meredith Kercher should be treated like any other murder victim. That means a certain level of respect, but not a respect that in any way endangers the due process of the accused. And I can understand that her family is devastated that their daughter died in a sexual related homicide. I can understand that they would like nothing better than to see Amanda, Rudy, and Raffaele taken about behind the courthouse and shot 2 years ago. I would feel exactly the same way in their place, except that frankly I'd want their deaths to be a lot slower.

It does seem that British and American standards are different here. For example Brits seem genuinely shocked that Americans can make movies about a case while the case is ongoing.

As for Necrophilia, I don't think a corpse deserves more respect than living people. Frankly necrophilia is 100x less offensive to discuss than rape. Rape involved a living, breathing, suffering woman. Necrophilia involves a piece of meat with human DNA. Dead people really and truly do not care.

Moreover the speculation is that the sex happened around the time of death. So all ordering of events need to be discussed. One of the reasons the prosecution was able to get away with presenting a rape / torture / murder that didn't correspond to any other rape / torture / murder in the last 400 hundred years was an over sensitivity walking through the details.

__________________________

CDHost,

You are mistaken......

"The trial of two former lovers charged with the murder of British student Meredith Kercher will be held in public, an Italian judge ruled today.

* * *

A lawyer for Kercher's family sought to have the proceedings closed to the public and media to prevent the publication of sensitive evidence and protect the victim's dignity, but the presiding judge ruled the trial would remain open." Guardian January 16, 2009

///

 

[RoseMontague]

Dan O.

I was under the impression that she holds an M.D. and was a coroner, but I do not have a citation. Fiona reported that she had identified bodies via DNA after the Asian Tsunami of some half dozen years ago.

I have seen the article on the Tsunami work she did. This was the link to published works by a Stefanoni, P. that Machiavelli provided with the caveat they did not believe numbers 3-5 were the same P. Stefanoni we are discussing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term="Stefanoni P"[Author]

ETA 2 more here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6427206&postcount=9918

 

[Danceme]

Good day, Danceme,
You are very perceptive, for I too had noticed this persons' distinctive way of walking, especially since I myself have have a distinctice walk also, that 1 people have commented on for years.

I wonder if any one of Rudy Guede's buddies, say someone like Giacomo Benedetti,
-(who helped the police investigation by doing that Nov. 19, 2007 Skype conversation while Rudy was on the run and whom I remember seeing interviewed in an Italian TV program that someone here had posted a link to), has seen this CCTV video footage and has an opinion on whether or not that person is Rudy Guede...

Being neither a Republican nor a Democrat, but an Independant type of surfer, well I look at both the pro-guilt and pro-innocence sides of the story to help formulate my own opinions on what happened that horrible night that Miss Meredith Kercher had her life brutally taken...

And since many in the court of public opinion have believed that this person in the CCTV video was Rudy Guede on his way to murder Meredith Kercher, and I have now researched and debated this a bit, I believe otherwise...

So in closing, I wonder if anyone of Rudy Guede's friends have come forward to publicly state that the person with the distinctive walk in the CCTV video is or is not him...

The beach is calling as I watch the LA skyline get brighter with the new dawn approaching.
See you all later, have a good one.
RWVBWL

Thank you RWVBWL. I also wondered if Rudy's gait wouldn't have been recognizable to his friends.

Dan O.,

How would Guede's father be able to afford a jacket?

Huh! That's a little cheeky of you halides1. That could have been a 49.99 bargain bin special.