Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Danceme]

Danceme,

I fixed the link. I am afraid that I do not see the small squares.

I can only see them in the first video, not the one you linked to. I could be totally wrong and it is a result of video compression or distortion but exactly as he walks into the frame I can see a texture on the coat which looks like quilting.

What your seeing on the jacket in both videos is the distortion from compressing the video and then blowing the video back up at a lesser quality.

Yes, it may be.

I believe a discussion based on necrophilia is beyond the pale, wholly unnecessary. I can only write and speak for myself and as a married man with daughters and as such I cannot see absolutely any value in this topic. In addition, I find the justification that others have said worse weak to say the least. Here’s a rule of thumb whilst those of feel the need to discuss this subject think about your wives, daughters or mothers.

I think your insinuation that because I mentioned necrophilia I must not have empathy for Meredith or her family simply absurd. I have a 17 year old daughter who I raised myself and went through years of fear that she would be abducted or assaulted or something equally nightmarish. That's just how mothers are. I ache for Meredith when I read the autopsy details and I feel shock and horror when I imagine what she went through. I have an active imagination and sometimes I can't rid myself of the horror for quite some time however it's because of this I also try to explore what on earth could have caused a human being to inflict such depraved cruel violence on another and take their life. Speculating on behavior is simply part of that. I'm sorry the written word just can't convey how one truly feels during this.

 

[Dan O.]

I used to think those were two different cameras at opposite ends of the garage. However, today I compared similar points on both videos. And they are in fact the same camera. Its just both video's have been cropped. Which begs to wonder, why any of those 3 would be walking from that direction in the garage if they didn't park there.

If you had a camera in the sky that looked straight down on that car park, one of the features you would be able to see would be the stairway leading from the upper deck to the lower deck. This stairway provides a path where a pedestrian could walk through the car park and temporarily get out of the November Perugian wind.

Which also begs to differ, why no one has come forward and said that was them walking on the camera.

Would you voluntarily step forward and place yourself near the scene of a brutal murder?

IF thats not Rudy or Sollecito, then Rudy should be arguing that person is the killer.

I'd have to check the timing of Rudy's statement but that might be what Rudy was trying to do when he said the person in the video wasn't him, indirectly pointing out that someone else was headed towards the cottage that night. Does that look like a stranger with curly hair? Later he would realize that the police had another set of suspects that the video didn't fit.


Does anyone have a theory that placing Rudy in that video supports? Or are we just arguing this detail to pass the time while waiting for the process in Italy to make the next move.

 

[Chris C]

If you had a camera in the sky that looked straight down on that car park, one of the features you would be able to see would be the stairway leading from the upper deck to the lower deck. This stairway provides a path where a pedestrian could walk through the car park and temporarily get out of the November Perugian wind.

Yes but why would the be walking from the parking garage. Thats coming from the opposite direction that Sollecito or Guede live.

Would you voluntarily step forward and place yourself near the scene of a brutal murder?

If they live there what does it matter. If you want to get that technical everyone that leaves near there should be a suspect.

I'd have to check the timing of Rudy's statement but that might be what Rudy was trying to do when he said the person in the video wasn't him, indirectly pointing out that someone else was headed towards the cottage that night. Does that look like a stranger with curly hair? Later he would realize that the police had another set of suspects that the video didn't fit.


Does anyone have a theory that placing Rudy in that video supports? Or are we just arguing this detail to pass the time while waiting for the process in Italy to make the next move.

I'm just passing time.

 

[Onofarar]

I'm from a bit different cultural circle, and Ganongs's declaration looked really extreme to me. Is it an acceptable or by any means common opinion in the western culture that one should get a life in jail for a "thought crime" like this?

Absolutely NOT! Well maybe the (left) fringe element (I'm a conservative myself).

 

[Danceme]

Do we know what parts of the bra did they test?

I don't. All I remember is that his dna was found on the back strap away from the clasp area although I'm not entirely sure where that information came from. Charlie may know.

This is what I know/believe from looking at that video over and over.
The person was wearing a hood or helmet.
The sides of the shoes are white. The soles of the shoes are tan or medium tinted. The top front of the shoes is white.
The person appears to not be of african decent.
Possible the person is wearing either glasses or goggles. Though that could be the hood or helmet.

What I dont know. I dont know 100 percent what color Guedes shoes where. What color is the bottom of the outbreak 2 shoes guede owned? If the soles of Guede shoes are not medium/tan tint and the shoe itself light color to white. Then those are positively not his outbreak 2 shoes.

I see exactly what you see with regards to the hat, skin colour and shoes etc. To me though the shoes look more like the Converse I posted, with a tan sole, white sides and toe piece. I haven't found that combination in an Outbreak yet.

I also looked at the first video about 10 times again, starting and stopping as he comes into the frame and I'm still sure I see quilting. I think it's really on the jacket because I studied the textures of everything else in the scene and didn't see anything comparable to explain it as distortion.

ETA: I do think I see a raised collar now at 25 seconds making the coat similar to the one halides1 posted.

 

[Danceme]

Does anyone have a theory that placing Rudy in that video supports? Or are we just arguing this detail to pass the time while waiting for the process in Italy to make the next move.

I think we're just exploring it to pass time. It doesn't matter if it is or isn't Rudy as it's a proven fact he went there. The route he took was never important. It says nothing new if it's him but does open the possibility to another person being in the area as well if it's not him.

 

[Onofarar]

Here's a short list, just 25 people, who must have either lied, been incompetent (in either memory or professionalism) or corrupt in regard to AK and RS's conviction:

1. Stefanoni
2. Curatolo
3. Mignini
4. Kokomani
5. Capezzali
6. Quintavalle
7. Comodi
8. Napoleoni
9. Zugarini
10. Maresca
11. Battistelli
12. Brocci
13. Rosignoli
14. Monacchia
15. Dramis
16. Lalli
17. Finzi
18. Torricelli
19. Cristiani
20. Romanelli
21. Altieri
22. Trotta
23. Norelli
24. Profazio
25. Ceccarelli

So we are supposed to believe that all of these 25 people, most who don't even know each other, are wrong in regard to what they know about this murder.

All of them.

Vincent Bugliosi in his book "Outrage" about the OJ Simpson trial, places most of the blame on the outcome on the INCOMPETENCE of the prosecution team
which comprised TWENTY-FIVE people working directly on different aspects of the case and several more in the background. It is his opinion that this was the most incompetent performance by a prosecution team in history (and the DA is included - because the trial should and could have been held in Santa Monica NOT downtown LA and that was on him).
BTW - remember that a major turning point was when Fuhrman was caught lying on an irrelevant matter - it became the trial within the trial.

A key lesson from that book is there is ordinary incompetence daily in life and homicide investigations are no different. People then lie to cover up their incompetence or exaggerate their role so that people don't think they are less than very competent.

 

[christianahannah]

Do we know what parts of the bra did they test?

The motivations states this about what parts of the bra were tested (excluding the clasp):

Page 190:

The bra was found at the feet of the body of the victim, near the threshold of the room, and of the 6 samples taken (labeled from A to F), only trace B yielded a Y chromosome (only the Y chromosome, not the complete mixture) identified as belonging to Rudy Hermann Guede.

Page 197:

More samples from various points on the bra were taken: two samples from the interior part of the bra cups; four samples of the straps that seemed torn, because there were cotton threads that had come out; another sample, identified by the letter B - from the portion of the elastic band that runs from the lateral side of the woman’s body until the back part, adjacent to the missing little piece which was recovered separately. In the posterior part of the bra, indicated with the letter B, the Y profile of Rudy Hermann Guede emerged; the genetic profile of total DNA was that of the victim, from the victim’s blood.

 

[Dan O.]

Yes but why would the be walking from the parking garage. Thats coming from the opposite direction that Sollecito or Guede live.

But where is the kabob shop?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Here's a short list, just 25 people, who must have either lied, been incompetent (in either memory or professionalism) or corrupt in regard to AK and RS's conviction:

1. Stefanoni
2. Curatolo
3. Mignini
4. Kokomani
5. Capezzali
6. Quintavalle
7. Comodi
8. Napoleoni
9. Zugarini
10. Maresca
11. Battistelli
12. Brocci
13. Rosignoli
14. Monacchia
15. Dramis
16. Lalli
17. Finzi
18. Torricelli
19. Cristiani
20. Romanelli
21. Altieri
22. Trotta
23. Norelli
24. Profazio
25. Ceccarelli

So we are supposed to believe that all of these 25 people, most who don't even know each other, are wrong in regard to what they know about this murder.

All of them.

Sure. How many people had to lie and blunder to put Kelly Michaels behind bars in New Jersey? What about all the innocent people who went to prison in Wenatchee, WA - more than 20 of them? No one who knows the facts would deny that dozens of police officers and public officials lied and manipulated evidence in those cases. And there are many others with similar fact patterns. We are not presenting an abstract conspiracy theory. This is a real-world phenomenon that has been documented extensively. You spend lots of time posting in this forum, but you're not willing to take the time to remedy your ignorance of the subject on which you are expounding. It is discouraging to watch.

 

[RWVBWL]

If you had a camera in the sky that looked straight down on that car park, one of the features you would be able to see would be the stairway leading from the upper deck to the lower deck. This stairway provides a path where a pedestrian could walk through the car park and temporarily get out of the November Perugian wind.

Would you voluntarily step forward and place yourself near the scene of a brutal murder?

I'd have to check the timing of Rudy's statement but that might be what Rudy was trying to do when he said the person in the video wasn't him, indirectly pointing out that someone else was headed towards the cottage that night. Does that look like a stranger with curly hair? Later he would realize that the police had another set of suspects that the video didn't fit.

Does anyone have a theory that placing Rudy in that video supports? Or are we just arguing this detail to pass the time while waiting for the process in Italy to make the next move.

Hi Dan O.,
I'm probably on ignore by a few people, but I hope that you respond to this.
I had watched the video that Moodstream had linked,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tH-klo4nGQ
and afterwards posted that I believe the person seen in it heading towards Meredith is a white male, not a black male, though most media reports have thought it was Rudy Guede.

Knowing Rudy wore Nike Outbreak 2 sneakers, I found a photo of his shoes, which I do not think match the 1's that the guy in the CCTV video is wearing.

Have a look at this. It is a link to Rudy holding his jacket:
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=ru02A/45RKD0S3Yn0dvoNIh4l5k2TGxc

Most people believe that is the same jacket as the person is wearing in the video. Do you? I don't. So I wonder if the person seen in the video is the 1 who stabbed Meredith Kercher to her death, and so tried to decipher the clues what might have happened if it was a light color skinned or a white guy who followed and then attacked Meredith.
Here is my original post:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6799904#post6799904

Here's a question for you Dan O. or anyone else:
Do you believe that Meredith had initiated the aborted/failed 8:56pm call to her Mom after parting ways with Sophie but while walking to her apartment?*

Or do you believe that Meredith had already arrived home by 8:56pm, had unlocked her door, relocked it, and then decided to call her Mom and that was when she was suddenly attacked?
Thanks for any replies,
RW


*If so, then I speculate that the initial attack happened right as she got home, with that CCTV video showing someone of a light skin color, a white guy, the possible culprit.

 

[Draca]

Here's a question for you Dan O. or anyone else:
Do you believe that Meredith had initiated the aborted/failed 8:56pm call to her Mom after parting ways with Sophie but while walking to her apartment?*

Or do you believe that Meredith had already arrived home by 8:56pm, had unlocked her door, relocked it, and then decided to call her Mom and that was when she was suddenly attacked?
Thanks for any replies,
RW

*If so, then I speculate that the initial attack happened right as she got home, with that CCTV video showing someone of a light skin color, a white guy, the possible culprit.

I think she made the call after arriving home. I don't see why she would bring the phone out on a cold night while walking.

Your theory makes little sense to me. There is no evidence of footprints in blood or finger prints in blood of anyone but Rudi Guede. It was his palm print in blood, he admitted it was his shoe prints in blood, he admitted being there. He said he went to the bathroom to get towels. He said he was there while she way lying on the floor trying to speak.

Why do you keep pushing mysterious other person theories ?

 

[Chris C]

But where is the kabob shop?

Of all the things Rudy has lied about, this is one of the few things I believe he is telling the truth about. After all, he said he arrived alone and gave the time of his arrival. He has no reason to lie and say that a person on a camera thats walking alone before the murder isn't him. The real question is, what time was that video taken? Remember the prosecution originally claimed it was knox. However, the prosecution knows knox couldn't have arrived by herself until after 9pm. Which also brings up another question why would the prosecution claim it was knox and charge Sollecito. Since its obvious the person is walking alone.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi all,
I was thinkng about the rock that was thrown thru Filomena's window.
I believe that it weighs 8.8lbs, correct.

So I tried to put that figure into something comparable at home.
Let's see, a pint of milk weighs 16oz or 1lb. a quart of milk is 32oz or 2lbs, a 1/2 gallon of milk weighs 64oz or 4lbs, a gallon of milk weighs what, 8 lbs?

That rock thrown thru the window was heavier than a gallon of milK?!?

Why would somone throw such a heavy rock thru the window. Why not a smaller, lighter one?

Someone either wanted to create a huge hole in the window or to see if anyone was home at the time. I bet that heavy rock must have made a loud thunk also when it landed on the floor.

It is suprisng that no one heard it break the glass that night...
Especially when I read on Perugia Shock this:
"Finally we had the pleasure to meet the couple whose car got stuck in the middle of the crossroad of via della Pergola on November 1. It was reconstructed that they were there for about 45 minutes, at some time between 10:20 and 11:30 pm, and they didn't notice anything strange, they didn't see Amanda orRaffaele , they didn't hear any horrific scream, they didn't see a black bag becoming two people, they didn't notice a black guy running. They only remember quite an intense movement of people on foot and on car.
Link:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/06/evening-of-november-1st.html

With sooo many people out and about, according to the folks whose car got stuck in the middle of the crossroad, well I wonder something:
Maybe, just maybe someone came back, hours later, after a certain nightclub named Domus had closed and then threw the rock at the window to alert someone, heck anyone in either the upstairs or even downstairs apartments, that Meredith was dead or dying in her room. And when no one came forth, maybe, just maybe, that person entered Meredith's apartment once more through the open front door...

 

[RWVBWL]

I think she made the call after arriving home. I don't see why she would bring the phone out on a cold night while walking.

Your theory makes little sense to me. There is no evidence of footprints in blood or finger prints in blood of anyone but Rudi Guede. It was his palm print in blood, he admitted it was his shoe prints in blood, he admitted being there. He said he went to the bathroom to get towels. He said he was there while she way lying on the floor trying to speak.

Why do you keep pushing mysterious other person theories ?

Hi Draca,
Thanks for your input.
I do so because A LOT of things do not add up...

Why wipe all the fingerprints and/or blood off 2 cell phones after you left feces in the toilet, handprints, fingerprints, and DNA in the murder room?
Etc, etc, etc...

 

[Draca]

Hi Draca,
Thanks for your input.
I do so because A LOT of things do not add up...

Why wipe all the fingerprints and/or blood off 2 cell phones after you left feces in the toilet, handprints, fingerprints, and DNA in the murder room?
Etc, etc, etc...

Do you have documentation that they tested the phones for blood and/or finger prints? There was blood in the sink also. He probably washed his hands before grabbing the phones.

Same with the lamp. Was it even tested? They didn't even collect the rock until Dec 18th. Why do we think they tested the phones or lamp?

Charlie do you have these tests on a pdf?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I don't. All I remember is that his dna was found on the back strap away from the clasp area although I'm not entirely sure where that information came from. Charlie may know.

It was on Sample B of Rep 59:
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/selected_dna_results.pdf

As for the location of Sample B, I have just uploaded the best image I have:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/rep_59_bra.gif

Which is not very good, from a fax, but it looks like it was on the right shoulder strap.

I see exactly what you see with regards to the hat, skin colour and shoes etc. To me though the shoes look more like the Converse I posted, with a tan sole, white sides and toe piece. I haven't found that combination in an Outbreak yet.

I also looked at the first video about 10 times again, starting and stopping as he comes into the frame and I'm still sure I see quilting. I think it's really on the jacket because I studied the textures of everything else in the scene and didn't see anything comparable to explain it as distortion.

ETA: I do think I see a raised collar now at 25 seconds making the coat similar to the one halides1 posted.

"he'd kill us if he had the chance..."

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Do you have documentation that they tested the phones for blood and/or finger prints? There was blood in the sink also. He probably washed his hands before grabbing the phones.

Same with the lamp. Was it even tested? They didn't even collect the rock until Dec 18th. Why do we think they tested the phones or lamp?

Charlie do you have these tests on a pdf?

As far as I know, everything tested from Meredith's room is here:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/selected_dna_results.pdf

The lamp wasn't one of the items tested. I don't think they tested the cell phones either, because they had been extensively handled by a number of people before anyone realized they were evidence in a major crime.

 

[moodstream]

Here's a short list, just 25 people, who must have either lied, been incompetent (in either memory or professionalism) or corrupt in regard to AK and RS's conviction:

1. Stefanoni
2. Curatolo
3. Mignini
4. Kokomani
5. Capezzali
6. Quintavalle
7. Comodi
8. Napoleoni
9. Zugarini
10. Maresca
11. Battistelli
12. Brocci
13. Rosignoli
14. Monacchia
15. Dramis
16. Lalli
17. Finzi
18. Torricelli
19. Cristiani
20. Romanelli
21. Altieri
22. Trotta
23. Norelli
24. Profazio
25. Ceccarelli

So we are supposed to believe that all of these 25 people, most who don't even know each other, are wrong in regard to what they know about this murder.

All of them.

I would not go with your choice of the word incompetent. Many on the list could just be plain wrong.

Many of the people on the list have to be considered as a part of a larger pool. For example, Curatolo. There may have been many people in that park over the course of the evening who did not see Knox or Sollecito. Let's say nineteen others. Then, Curatolo has to be the only liar out of twenty people in the park that night. That's not unusual. The same for Quintavalle. How many people were out and about in the area Knox must have walked on the morning of Nov 2, none of whom reported seeing Knox.

Looked at this way, it's not surprising to find one person out of many who either misremembers or out and out lies.

 

[Draca]

As far as I know, everything tested from Meredith's room is here:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/selected_dna_results.pdf

The lamp wasn't one of the items tested. I don't think they tested the cell phones either, because they had been extensively handled by a number of people before anyone realized they were evidence in a major crime.

Do you have a pdf on where fingerprints were tested?

I'm not surprised at all if they didn't test the phones or the lamp. Anything. Ever since I realized from the pdf that they didn't even collect a large portion of the clothing MK was wearing until 6 weeks later there isn't much that would shock me about the forensic team.

Rule of thumb - assume they DIDN'T test if until you see documentation that they did. Assume incompetence and it will usually be correct.