Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

Indeed there were. Maresca did not merely oppose the idea of dismantling the knife. He opposed new testing of the bra as well.

Obviously, this is the position defense attorneys almost always take. They don't want further tests that might add to the weight of evidence against their client. But in this case, the defense is agreeable to any and all further testing the consultants may wish to perform. It is the attorney who represents the family of a murder victim - a party that has every interest in learning the truth about what happened to their loved one - pleading with the court not to test forensic evidence.

Yes, the media took note of this.

Good to hear they saw it too, thus at least some good came out of it. As for what you note about Maresca, that's why I call him the 'Jackal.' He's been in this from the beginning, hasn't he? Was he Patrick's lawyer for that BS 'slander' charge as well? Or have I him mixed up with someone? I recall he has another connection to this debacle outside being the Kercher lawyer.

This is another element of the Italian system that I don't think serves the interests of justice and in fact in a case like this might pervert it.

 

[CDHost]

What about the ability of the Kerchers' to enforce their judgement against any royalties from book sales in Europe?

How? Lets work an example. AK loses the appeal, the next appeal... and writes "My Time in Italy". A tell all book about her affair with Raffaele, how relationship with Meredith, getting beaten at the police station (or not),.... She forms a Washington corp with herself as the sole shareholder, to handle the book sales. US publisher (say HPC), and lets say she gets a movie deal. Now just for safety AK makes the contract with HPC in Washington not NY.

I don't know about the laws in Europe but... lets assume the book gets translated by Italian publisher say Adelphi Edizioni.

So now book is sold
AE pays royalty to HPC (I don't think attackable)
HPC pays a royalty to AK-corp (normally this would be under NY courts, but see above its Washington courts).
AK-corp passes the money through to AK. Definitely Washington

Under the best of circumstances the Kercher's would have a tough time enforcing their claims. Talk to credit card companies that try to go after people in Texas, Florida, Iowa, Kansas, and Oklahoma. And those aren't foreign interests, in a lawsuit objected by American political officials. The rules for a judgement are that there can't valid grounds to contest it during a transfer, and well this has anything but. You've had multiple government officials attack the ruling on the record, ergo there are valid grounds to contest it.

And here is where I don't know European law and we could open this up to Europeans. Maybe the Kerchers can sue AE when Washington refuses to transfer the judgement, but my guess is that AE wins because they can argue

1) the right place to deal with this is Washington since
2) they don't even have a contract with Amanda at all and
3) have no idea of HPC is giving her money and if so how much.

IMHO, for AK the civil judgement ain't worth the paper its printed on. That is as long as Washington State government is on her side.

___

Now if just to throw in another monkey wrench what if Amanda is not the only shareholder in AKcorp?

 

[Withnail1969]

But I have seen many photos of that knife, clean and shiny, wrapped in plastic. This photo is all over the net. That's why I am confused now with Frank's photo.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...is-accused-of-murdering-Meredith-Kercher.html

The photo you posted shows no detail of the knife's surface.

 

[babycondor]

But I have seen many photos of that knife, clean and shiny, wrapped in plastic. This photo is all over the net. That's why I am confused now with Frank's photo.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...is-accused-of-murdering-Meredith-Kercher.html

This is a good example of why it is really impossible to prove anything conclusively from photos seen on the Internet. One has no idea who took the photo, where or when it was taken, whose computer has it been downloaded to or uploaded from, etc. It is so easy to digitally manipulate images.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

cleaning the knife

Then I'm unclear here. Assuming that Meredith's DNA were on the knife and blood is not why wouldn't saliva have been a standard operating assumption during the analysis?

CDHost,

If we assume that the knife is the murder weapon, then it would have to have blood on the blade and possibly on the handle from spray. Therefore, it would have had to have been cleaned. The prosecution wants to find a way to say that the cleaning was imperfect and left a speck of DNA. I think that this is pernicious nonsense. Any cleaning product will remove or destroy biological matter, by one mechanism or another. Bleach is especially effective at destroying DNA, and that is why the rumors of the knife being bleached (Dr. Stefanoni even raised the possibility in her testimony, IIRC) always struck me as the worst sort of nonsense. It is difficult for me to see why detergent would remove blood cells and not muscle cells unless Harry Potter waves his wand over it.

I am not sure that I have answered your question. However, my opinion is that the DNA arrived from contamination in the lab. If you look at how laboratories are set up to deal with low template number profiling, they have many extra precautions, including UV lighting, to destroy unwanted DNA. In other words, the precautions imply that contamination is a more likely problem in the low template range than in the standard range. RoseMontague and I have turned up many citations to that effect, mostly in the previous thread.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Pacelli

Good to hear they saw it too, thus at least some good came out of it. As for what you note about Maresca, that's why I call him the 'Jackal.' He's been in this from the beginning, hasn't he? Was he Patrick's lawyer for that BS 'slander' charge as well? Or have I him mixed up with someone? I recall he has another connection to this debacle outside being the Kercher lawyer.

This is another element of the Italian system that I don't think serves the interests of justice and in fact in a case like this might pervert it.

I think Pacelli was Patrick's lawyer. He is the one who called Amanda a she-devil. Nice to know that misogyny is alive and well in the twenty first century.

 

[Kaosium]

Appeal over then. All the court has to do is to check out an AK support website. It would save so much time and money.

When I first became interested in this case I shied away from anything associated with the Knox family under the assumption it would be 'biased.' I thought that a reasonable assumption, thus I checked out what I figured would be the 'neutral' sites first. After reviewing them all and evaluating the source material I was astonished to find out the opposite was true: the ones who believed there was an injustice or that the case was ridiculous seemed to more or less have it right, while the ones pretending neutrality were like going down the rabbit hole.

How are you doing over there anyway? Stepped on any kittens yet?

 

[Withnail1969]

When I first became interested in this case I shied away from anything associated with the Knox family under the assumption it would be 'biased.' I thought that a reasonable assumption, thus I checked out what I figured would be the 'neutral' sites first. After reviewing them all and evaluating the source material I was astonished to find out the opposite was true: the ones who believed there was an injustice or that the case was ridiculous seemed to more or less have it right, while the ones pretending neutrality were like going down the rabbit hole.

How are you doing over there anyway? Stepped on any kittens yet?

Nobody on that side of the debate seems to want to discuss the fact that the knife has not been cleaned as we were told it had been. In fact we were told that the reason Stefanoni was looking for nanometric scale residues in a tiny scratch on the blade was because the murderers had so thoroughly cleaned the knife.

 

[Fine]

Thank you for your answers. So we don't actually know that Meredith was never at RS' house? She might have come over 2 or 3 times with AK to hang out or get high or ...?

_______________________

CDHost,

It's ambiguous in Raffaele's Diary just where Raffaele is supposed to have pricked Meredith with the knife. But his father says explicitly that the event happened at the cottage..............


"Meanwhile, the father of Raffaele Sollecito reveals some details: his son Raffaele once went to the home of Meredith and Amanda, with whom he was engaged to prepare a dinner which also attended the same British student. A parlare dell'episodio è il padre dello studente pugliese, Francesco, presente al sopralluogo nella casa del delitto. A mention of the episode is the father of the student from Puglia, Francesco, to visit the home of this crime. Una circostanza che il medico ha spiegato di «sapere per certo». A fact that the doctor explained that "to know for sure." Secondo Francesco Sollecito è a questa cena alla quale il figlio fa riferimento quando ipotizza di avere ipoteticamente punto Mez con un coltello, quello poi sequestrato a casa sua e sul quale è stato trovato il dna sia di Mez che di Amanda. According to Francesco Sollecito is at this dinner to which the child is assumed to have a reference when hypothetically Mez point with a knife, what then arrested at his home and on which it was found that the DNA of Amanda Mez." December 18, 2007 (See page 4 on this website.)

///

 

[Alt+F4]

This is a good example of why it is really impossible to prove anything conclusively from photos seen on the Internet. One has no idea who took the photo, where or when it was taken, whose computer has it been downloaded to or uploaded from, etc. It is so easy to digitally manipulate images.

Indeed, and it doesn't help that Frank splashes his name over all the photos on his site.

 

[Kaosium]

Yup, when all else fails, revert to a CT.

Are you sure you didn't fall for one?

 

[Withnail1969]

Indeed, and it doesn't help that Frank splashes his name over all the photos on his site.

There's a measuring scale on the photograph with a crest on it which reads 'Direzione Centrale Polizia Criminale . Servizio Polizia Scientifica'.

I think it might be a clue as to where the photo came from. Can any posters shed any light on this?

 

[Kaosium]

Regardless of whether anything is stuck under the handle, it's obvious The Knife has not been washed, therefore cannot have been the murder weapon.

Is this the same knife that was described as "extremely clean" on page [282] that was so recently posted?

I wonder how it could have gotten so dirty...

 

[Onofarar]

How? Lets work an example. AK loses the appeal, the next appeal... and writes "My Time in Italy". A tell all book about her affair with Raffaele, how relationship with Meredith, getting beaten at the police station (or not),.... She forms a Washington corp with herself as the sole shareholder, to handle the book sales. US publisher (say HPC), and lets say she gets a movie deal. Now just for safety AK makes the contract with HPC in Washington not NY.

I don't know about the laws in Europe but... lets assume the book gets translated by Italian publisher say Adelphi Edizioni.

So now book is sold
AE pays royalty to HPC (I don't think attackable)
HPC pays a royalty to AK-corp (normally this would be under NY courts, but see above its Washington courts).
AK-corp passes the money through to AK. Definitely Washington
<snip>

And here is where I don't know European law and we could open this up to Europeans. Maybe the Kerchers can sue AE when Washington refuses to transfer the judgement, but my guess is that AE wins because they can argue

1) the right place to deal with this is Washington since
2) they don't even have a contract with Amanda at all and
3) have no idea of HPC is giving her money and if so how much.

IMHO, for AK the civil judgement ain't worth the paper its printed on. That is as long as Washington State government is on her side.

___

Now if just to throw in another monkey wrench what if Amanda is not the only shareholder in AKcorp?

First, I agree any court action in the USA is probably going to nowhere for the Kerchers - including any effort to enforce foreign judgements against US assets / cash flow.
My question was specifically about what could happen in Europe especially on the Continent since it is all civil law (Great Britain & Ireland excepted they are comon law states).
I read your response to be "I don't know Europens laws but I think..."
My opinion based on business experience not law is that the Kerchers will prevail in the end in Europe proper (not necessarily where common law is used). One possible avenue - get a court to allow the books to be impounded until the case is sorted out - AE or whoever will have their prospectives profits on the line and will negotiate to get the books back rather than risk losing not just their gross margin but the investment (publishing cost) in the books themselves. That is just one scenario - there are others.
Otherwise how do you explain all the funds expended by the Kerchers' to pay Maresca's fees?

 

[Chris C]

How? Lets work an example. AK loses the appeal, the next appeal... and writes "My Time in Italy". A tell all book about her affair with Raffaele, how relationship with Meredith, getting beaten at the police station (or not),.... She forms a Washington corp with herself as the sole shareholder, to handle the book sales. US publisher (say HPC), and lets say she gets a movie deal. Now just for safety AK makes the contract with HPC in Washington not NY.

I don't know about the laws in Europe but... lets assume the book gets translated by Italian publisher say Adelphi Edizioni.

So now book is sold
AE pays royalty to HPC (I don't think attackable)
HPC pays a royalty to AK-corp (normally this would be under NY courts, but see above its Washington courts).
AK-corp passes the money through to AK. Definitely Washington

Under the best of circumstances the Kercher's would have a tough time enforcing their claims. Talk to credit card companies that try to go after people in Texas, Florida, Iowa, Kansas, and Oklahoma. And those aren't foreign interests, in a lawsuit objected by American political officials. The rules for a judgement are that there can't valid grounds to contest it during a transfer, and well this has anything but. You've had multiple government officials attack the ruling on the record, ergo there are valid grounds to contest it.

And here is where I don't know European law and we could open this up to Europeans. Maybe the Kerchers can sue AE when Washington refuses to transfer the judgement, but my guess is that AE wins because they can argue

1) the right place to deal with this is Washington since
2) they don't even have a contract with Amanda at all and
3) have no idea of HPC is giving her money and if so how much.

IMHO, for AK the civil judgement ain't worth the paper its printed on. That is as long as Washington State government is on her side.

___

Now if just to throw in another monkey wrench what if Amanda is not the only shareholder in AKcorp?

or you just have your Mother write the book.

 

[Chris C]

First, I agree any court action in the USA is probably going to nowhere for the Kerchers - including any effort to enforce foreign judgements against US assets / cash flow.
My question was specifically about what could happen in Europe especially on the Continent since it is all civil law (Great Britain & Ireland excepted they are comon law states).
I read your response to be "I don't know Europens laws but I think..."
My opinion based on business experience not law is that the Kerchers will prevail in the end in Europe proper (not necessarily where common law is used). One possible avenue - get a court to allow the books to be impounded until the case is sorted out - AE or whoever will have their prospectives profits on the line and will negotiate to get the books back rather than risk losing not just their gross margin but the investment (publishing cost) in the books themselves. That is just one scenario - there are others.
Otherwise how do you explain all the funds expended by the Kerchers' to pay Maresca's fees?

Well it would have to be an European publisher for them to get the money. If its an American publisher, they would have to have a civil judgement against Knox in America. Since no civil judgement is against Knox in America she can sell her story to whoever and if the book was published in Europe the Kerchers would get the royalities of the book from European sales if there was any. Though in all likelyhood any book contract sold to American publishers would have all the money upfront to avoid paying royalties. Of course they could always sue Knox in America right now if they want. However, for the case to go forward in America, I'm betting the judge would rule Knox would have to be in attendance unless she signed away that right or wait till she is released from prison and back in America. There would also have to be a release of evidence for Knox to defend herself in American civil court.

Whats more curious is how libel are the Kerchers. After all they hired Maresca who had an active hand in putting both Sollecito and Knox in jail. If their convictions are overturned can they countersue the Kerchers. I'm not saying I would personally do that. However, most Italians claim this is an aggressive move to hire a lawyer to represent Meredith at the prosecutions table. The reason I ask this is because if you file a civil suit and lose in America you are libel to the person you sued.

As an example, OJ simpson. He lost his civil suit and was deemed responsible in civil court. However, if he would have won the civil court suit, the families suing him would have been held responsible for his lawyer fees and left themselves open for countersuing.

 

[Kaosium]

I think Pacelli was Patrick's lawyer. He is the one who called Amanda a she-devil. Nice to know that misogyny is alive and well in the twenty first century.

Ah, thank you. Maresca is the lawyer for the cops and the calunnia charge though, isn't he? I'm pretty sure he has another connection to this case.

They're going to need someone who can really play a believable sleazoid when cast his role for the real movie. Joe Pantoliano maybe?

 

[Alt+F4]

or you just have your Mother write the book.

In Washington State the "son of sam" law applies to criminals and their "representatives".

 

[Justinian2]

....when they turn 18.

That's the definition given by Black's Law dictionary.

adult: fully developed and mature : grown-up

That's the definition given by Webster. Amanda and Raffaele are not adults until they can support themselves as only then would they really be fully developed and mature

However, when it comes to justice, they may be more mature than any of us.

 

[el buscador]

Indeed, and it doesn't help that Frank splashes his name over all the photos on his site.

Hi, Alt+F4,
The photo of the knife in Frank's most recent blog is the same photo that he showed in December 2007, imo.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2007/12/all-possible-theories.html