• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?

But when it comes to people with powers. Evidence does suggest that there is really no such thing. But if there were, would it not be possible that they are extremely few and far between?


If I had some ham, I'd make a ham sandwich, if only I had some bread.

Can someone please help me find a logical explanation for why I don't seem to be able to make a ham sandwich?

One more thing. If I had some ham then I think I'd be able to do it. Or some bread.

I know it's probably impossible, but still . . .

This link shows some ham sandwiches.

It really bothers me sometimes that I can't make a ham sandwich, but I'll bet if I did have some ham I could manage it. If I had some bread.


ad infinitum
 
Next is something related to a man named "Wallace Fard Muhammad", the man that started "The Nation of Islam" (which barely has anything to do with Islam and is a racist cult) The information he gives is startlingly accurate for a man like him to know so long ago (unless I am misinformed)

""In 1930, when Master Fard Muhammad came, He told us that, “The total area of the land and water of the planet Earth is 196,940,000 square miles.” He said, “The circumference of the planet Earth is 24,896 miles,” and, all of us had to memorize this. “The diameter of the earth is 7,926 miles; the area of land is 57,255,000 square miles; the area of water is 139,685,000 square miles.” He said “The Pacific Ocean covers 68,634,000 square miles and the Atlantic Ocean covers 41,321,000 square miles.”

“The Indian Ocean,” He said, “covers 29,430,000 square miles, and the lakes and rivers cover 1,000,000 square miles. The hills and the mountains cover 14,000,000 square miles; the islands are 1,910,000 square miles; and the deserts are 4,861,000 square miles. Mount Everest is 29,141 feet high, and the producing land is 29,000,000 square miles. The earth weighs 6 sextillion tons—a ‘6' followed by 21 zeros—and is 93,000,000 miles from the sun, traveling at the rate of 1,037 1/3 miles per hour. Light travels at the rate of 186,000 miles per second, and sound travels at the rate of 1,120 feet per second. The diameter of the sun is 853,000 miles.”

We were just students under a Master Teacher who asked us to study. Then, Master Fard Muhammad began to tell us about the distance of the planets and the life that is on the planets. He taught Elijah Muhammad, who was from the cotton fields of Georgia, and, who only went to the fourth grade of school. If you compare what Master Fard Muhammad said in 1930 (now 79 years ago), with the dimensions that the scholars have given, every year they have gotten closer and closer, until now their computations are similar with Master Fard Muhammad's. He is the man Who taught Elijah Muhammad, and came to raise us up from a dead level and make us rulers over those who once ruled us—not by guns and sticks, but by giving us a superior knowledge."

The information is not spot on, but some of it is still way closer than anyone should have been able to know at the time, especially somebody like him. Look the man up on wikipedia to get his back story, and also google his name along with "measurements earth water" and such to see more information on his supposed super knowledge.

The information listed by Fard could have come from any decent almanac or Encyclopedia of the time. It is not impressive in the slightest.

The fact is we know very little about Fard he apparently was not even black and may have thought up the whole Nation of Islam thing to fleece desperate and oppressed blacks.

Fard claimed to have studied at Oxford along with being Allah along with his father being black and his mother white. It appears that Fard was born in 1891 in New Zealand of Indian (as in India) parentege and to have emigrated to the USA. He got married and then ran out on his then wife and kid. Fard eventually married again. Fard apprantly was involved in criminal activities and was jailed in 1926. After his release Fard was involved with the Moorish Science Temple, an organization that had some Nation of Islam like beliefs.

While as a clothing peddler, in Detroit, Fard combined selling religion with selling clothes. and he presented himself as a mulatto. Because of his apparent sympathy for plight of his customers he found a ready audience. His Nation of Islam teachings found a ready audience with his desperate and poor audience and he soon attracted lots of converts. By ruthlessly tithing his desperate followers Fard was able to amass grerat sums of money. He eventually started grooming Elijah Mohamed. In late 1933 Fard had to leave Detroit after several run in with the police. Fard went to Chicago and for a few months was visited by Elijah Mohamed. In 1934 he disapeared. What happened to Fard later was until recently a mystery.

It appears that Fard turned up on one of his wives doorsteps in 1934 with a new car and plenty of money and may have over the years worked under some pseudonymns. Fard may have died in 1971.

As for the beliefs of the Nation of Islam. Describing them as nuts would be a underestimate. Like the idea that white people were a creation of a evil black scientist named Yacub. Or that the Universe is 76 trillion years old ouut od primeval atom out of which the first man (black naturally) was created and he was Allah. At this time blacks ruled the world and for trillions of years everything was peaceful with many Allahs bringing peace and security. There were a few instances of evil like 66 trillion years ago a evil black scientist tried to destroy humanity but created the moon instead. Oh yes and the original white people were created by evil scientist Yacub by him and his followers systematically killing off all the darker of their offspring until after many generations everyone of them was "white" and of course wicked and evil. However one day a mother plane will turn up and wipe out all the evil white people and assure blacks of their rightful domination of the earth.

Nothing remotely impressive about any of this.
 
I am not saying that was worth following due to that, I was just trying to see if it was something paranormal. He certainly doesn't have a good track record, though.

The thing that made me wonder about Swedenborg so much is that is would contradict him character to acknowledge that he actually did those things when he didn't. Of course, after reading more cases you can never really tell when a person is completely honest, no matter how much or how many people think they are.

I moved on from there to talk about similarities among mystical movements and experiences, which is where I find it really strange.
 
Last edited:
I moved on from there to talk about similarities among mystical movements and experiences, which is where I find it really strange.

Swedenborg was quite famous. Why wouldn't it be reasonable for people to copy his ideas later? Or, why wouldn't it be reasonable for him to have copied earlier ideas?
 
Swedenborg was quite famous. Why wouldn't it be reasonable for people to copy his ideas later? Or, why wouldn't it be reasonable for him to have copied earlier ideas?

Well, there is this one statement here (In the section "Swedenborg and Bohme"), But it does not prove anything.

Reading this again he never said he didn't read any mystic writings, just "dogmatic and systematic theology".

But there is also this.
 
Last edited:
Well, there is this one statement here (In the section "Swedenborg and Bohme"), But it does not prove anything.

Reading this again he never said he didn't read any mystic writings, just "dogmatic and systematic theology".

But there is also this.


There was also the fact that he was a "Protestant fundamentalist who, late in life, became a spiritualist and Sweden's most famous trance medium". That's quite a big shift, and it all seemed to happen that one Easter night. A very coincidental time to have strange visions. Although I beleive I read that his most original concept of "correspondences" was already developed before his "visionary phase". I can't be certain how many ideas of his he had developed before his supposed vision, though.

I also posted earlier about how great of a scientist he was, he was a man of incredible intelligence and claimed to have investigated his experiences thoroughly and scientifically. Of course, this wouldn't mean anything if he was a liar. But there is no sign of him being a liar, and he seemed to to beleive what he wrote. He even published his first works either anonymously or under a pseudonym (I don't remember which, but he still wasn't looking to make his name famous)

On top of that, there are the similarities to other mystical traditions, and there have been writings comparing him to hermeticism.

Does anybody know any works critical of Swedenborg's character and writing? There was a small page about him written by Martin Gardner in relation to Dr. Oz being a follower of him that was posted by ExMinister in another one of my threads.

But even if some of his visions were ridiculous and flawed, that wouldn't mean that something genuinely paranormal was occurring. Lots of people like to find flaws with the messages people supposedly receive and use those to say nothing ever happened. I don't see why the messages people like Swedenborg receive being flawed would be a proof that something strange did not happen to them.
 
Last edited:
If that Martin Gardner article you linked to doesn't convince you this stuff is bunk, then I don't know what will. Human inhabitants on the moon? Fertile land on Jupiter?

I also posted earlier about how great of a scientist he was, he was a man of incredible intelligence and claimed to have investigated his experiences thoroughly and scientifically. Of course, this wouldn't mean anything if he was a liar.

How could he investigate his experiences thoroughly and scientifically? He had no way of visiting these planets to confirm his visions were accurate.

Besides, being intelligent doesn't mean you can't be mentally ill or deluded.
 
<snip more of the same>


<snip even more of more of the same>


Srsly???


If that Martin Gardner article you linked to doesn't convince you this stuff is bunk, then I don't know what will. Human inhabitants on the moon? Fertile land on Jupiter?

How could he investigate his experiences thoroughly and scientifically? He had no way of visiting these planets to confirm his visions were accurate.

Besides, being intelligent doesn't mean you can't be mentally ill or deluded.


Verily.

Hi there Skepdan.





Welcome to Recursive Land™, the most tiresome kingdom of them all.
 
There was also the fact that he was a "Protestant fundamentalist who, late in life, became a spiritualist and Sweden's most famous trance medium". That's quite a big shift, and it all seemed to happen that one Easter night. A very coincidental time to have strange visions. Although I beleive I read that his most original concept of "correspondences" was already developed before his "visionary phase". I can't be certain how many ideas of his he had developed before his supposed vision, though.

Coincidental time, how so? Easter is a movable feast, you know;), the dates are dependent on the moon, and the vernal equinox, not on anything that might or might not have happened 2000 years ago. And of course someone with a mystical/religisous bent would be more prone to introspection and visons on such days, don't you think?

I also posted earlier about how great of a scientist he was, he was a man of incredible intelligence and claimed to have investigated his experiences thoroughly and scientifically. Of course, this wouldn't mean anything if he was a liar. But there is no sign of him being a liar, and he seemed to to beleive what he wrote. He even published his first works either anonymously or under a pseudonym (I don't remember which, but he still wasn't looking to make his name famous)

On top of that, there are the similarities to other mystical traditions, and there have been writings comparing him to hermeticism.

Here I would like to take the opportunity to quote what a really wise person said to you a few eons ago:p
Zander, even if people in Swedenborg's time knew less about the world than we do now, perhaps, they still did not live in complete isolation. Linné and his followers travelled extensively, and interest in strange, exotic customs was high at the time. Swedenborg was educated and read extensively.

Also, you seem to believe that he either tricked people knowingly, or believed in what he said himself. It would seem more than likely to me that it might be a bit of both.

And really, if you still believe there is something in all this, it's because you want to believe.


But even if some of his visions were ridiculous and flawed, that wouldn't mean that something genuinely paranormal was occurring. Lots of people like to find flaws with the messages people supposedly receive and use those to say nothing ever happened. I don't see why the messages people like Swedenborg receive being flawed would be a proof that something strange did not happen to them.

You are right, ridiculous and flawed visions do not prove him wrong. But they certainly do not prove him right either. And perhaps the flaws and the ridiculousness may just indicate which is more likely?

Zander, once more: If you believe, it is because you want to. Why not apply the critical thinking skills you show elsewhere to this subject as well? You haven't done that so far, so it might be worth a try.
 
Coincidental time, how so? Easter is a movable feast, you know;), the dates are dependent on the moon, and the vernal equinox, not on anything that might or might not have happened 2000 years ago. And of course someone with a mystical/religisous bent would be more prone to introspection and visons on such days, don't you think?



Here I would like to take the opportunity to quote what a really wise person said to you a few eons ago:p




You are right, ridiculous and flawed visions do not prove him wrong. But they certainly do not prove him right either. And perhaps the flaws and the ridiculousness may just indicate which is more likely?

Zander, once more: If you believe, it is because you want to. Why not apply the critical thinking skills you show elsewhere to this subject as well? You haven't done that so far, so it might be worth a try.


I guess it's because all of this is what freaked me out and made me come here looking for an explanation. For some reason different aspects of his story keep coming back to me and end up making me wonder if the explanations are good enough. I'm still slightly unsure about the similarities in his work to other mystical movements, but even that has been answered.

If there hasn't been any mystic or person with such amazing abilities in modern times, I need to just let the case of Swedenborg go. I just don't know how so many remarks were made about his abilities then, but many fake or exaggerated stories come up all of the time. Especially back as long ago as his time. I just wonder why he acknowledged some. Is it possible that his responses in letters could either be twisted or fake? I could read through the letters in the documents again to see if it says they had copies of the actual letters.

I want to be completely certain I didn't miss something, and I want to thoroughly consider everything before I discard it. The last thing I am wondering about is the book I linked to, and that I wonder if I should read or not. I'm wondering if putting it off and dreading reading it is worse than just reading it.
 
Last edited:
Hi there Skepdan.

Thank you for the friendly wave, Akhenaten.

The last thing I am wondering about is the book I linked to, and that I wonder if I should read or not.

Please don't. You remind me of someone trying to quit smoking, but can't stop helping themselves to having one 'final' cigarette. You can't stop an addiction or obsession by having more of what you're addicted to.

The way out that you seem to be seeking is to accept that uncertainty is simply part of life, and we can't know everything for sure.
 
Last edited:
I guess it's because all of this is what freaked me out and made me come here looking for an explanation. For some reason different aspects of his story keep coming back to me and end up making me wonder if the explanations are good enough. I'm still slightly unsure about the similarities in his work to other mystical movements, but even that has been answered.

If there hasn't been any mystic or person with such amazing abilities in modern times, I need to just let the case of Swedenborg go. I just don't know how so many remarks were made about his abilities then, but many fake or exaggerated stories come up all of the time. Especially back as long ago as his time. I just wonder why he acknowledged some. Is it possible that his responses in letters could either be twisted or fake? I could read through the letters in the documents again to see if it says they had copies of the actual letters.

I want to be completely certain I didn't miss something, and I want to thoroughly consider everything before I discard it. The last thing I am wondering about is the book I linked to, and that I wonder if I should read or not. I'm wondering if putting it off and dreading reading it is worse than just reading it.

You seem to have already made up your mind that there's something going on and are seeking to confirm it.
 
Thank you for the friendly wave, Akhenaten.



Please don't. You remind me of someone trying to quit smoking, but can't stop helping themselves to having one 'final' cigarette. You can't stop an addiction or obsession by having more of what you're addicted to.

The way out that you seem to be seeking is to accept that uncertainty is simply part of life, and we can't know everything for sure.


I feel that there might be valuable information in there that I should see.
 
Valuable how?

Outlining the mystical "truths" contained in the writings. And I think that it might take some understanding of the character of Swedenborg to really get the full importance of what it points out.
 
Outlining the mystical "truths" contained in the writings. And I think that it might take some understanding of the character of Swedenborg to really get the full importance of what it points out.


'Mystical truths' is an oxymoron.

That you put quote marks around the word 'truths' yourself seems to indicate that you at least partially understand this already.

Your OP asked "Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?" but it's looking more and more as though what you should have written was "No matter how many people give me a logical explanation for this stuff, I'm going to keep believing it anyway."
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom