Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?

[DeadFish]

I'm trying to be as critical as I can and not just brush something off quickly with the most simple explanation I can find. I want to be very thorough and open minded before I discard claims. This is not the only event that has gotten me more interested in exploring phenomenon like this, and I can post some others later.

Surely a simple explanation is the best kind?

Presumably the events of the dinner did not happen exactly as described.

Until I was given some good evidence that the simplest and most plausible version was wrong I have little reason to doubt it.

Maybe then I'd attempt to come up with more convoluted explanation like Swedenborg had an accomplice with a flame thrower in one hand and a fire extinguisher in the other, all the while wearing a radio receiver to pick up the dinner party conversation. All these devices were presumably created by Swedenborg while he was a scientist.

 

[Aepervius]

"Swedenborg was relatively unknown until 1759 when a fire broke out in Stockholm, Sweden, which threatened to burn down his house and all his writings. At the time Swedenborg was at a dinner in Gothenburg, 480 kilometres away. He suddenly turned pale and described to the guests exactly what was happening, until the fire was put out three houses down from his house."

From Most likely to least likely :
* lot of wood at that period. How many house burning down on regular basis ?
* complice get paid a few shilling/crown/whatever to set fire. Why try to predict when you can make SURE the prediction turn true
* joke and attempt to attract attention turn out to be not-so-a-joke
* he predicted that every day, but only the day it turn true is recorded, bias in recording
* the story is made up from zero to start
* unlikely due to the distance but maybe he looked at stockholm with a good optical instrument (J/K)

and almost certainly impossible, as far as science model of the world is :
* he really predicted the fire

 

[paximperium]

I found a page with a little more information on it.

"Swedenborg made no effort to establish a religious sect or to induce people to form themselves into a church following. In fact, his efforts to remain anonymous with regard to his theological works lasted until 1759. In that year an incident occurred in Sweden which brought him considerable notoriety and which eventually led many to connect Swedenborg for the first time with his unusual theological works, particularly Heaven and Hell. In July, in the city of Gothenburg, approximately 300 miles from Stockholm, while he dined with friends at the home of William Castel, a wealthy local merchant, Swedenborg became pale and disturbed, withdrew for a time to the garden, and returned with news that a great fire had broken out in Stockholm not far from his home. He said that the fire was spreading rapidly and he feared that some of his manuscripts would be destroyed. Finally, at 8:00 p.m. he spoke with relief: "Thank God! The fire is extinguished the third door from my house!"

Persons present, disturbed by the incident since some had homes or friends in Stockholm, were impressed by Swedenborg's apparent clairvoyance. The same evening one of them told the story to the provincial governor and he, in turn, requested that Swedenborg render him a full account. The next day, Sunday, Swedenborg gave the governor details regarding the nature and extent of the fire and the means by which it had been extinguished. News of the alleged fire spread widely in the city of Gothenburg and the subject became the general topic of conversation.

Not until Monday evening did a messenger arrive, from the Stockholm Board of Trade, with details on the fire. Since they agreed with those Swedenborg had given, the general curiosity aroused made him a public figure, and not long afterwards his authorship of Heaven and Hell and the Arcana Coelestia became known. A variety of prominent persons, curious to meet with a man who claimed to be able to see into the spiritual world, began to write accounts of Swedenborg and his habits. Those who had not yet had an opportunity to meet him tended to conclude that Swedenborg had become insane. After meeting and talking with him they found him, on the contrary, to be quite reasonable. They frequently ended in a quandary, not willing to accept his sweeping claims, yet convinced of his sanity."

Also, go to the "Veracity" section on his wikipedia page. One of the things that makes it special is that the specific detials he gave were confirmed, such as it being stopped three doors down from his house.

Who are these witnesses?
When was this supposed dinner party?
Who were the dinner guests?
What exactly are their accounts of the events?

 

[Marduk]

I found a page with a little more information on it.

"Swedenborg made no effort to establish a religious sect or to induce people to form themselves into a church following. In fact, his efforts to remain anonymous with regard to his theological works lasted until 1759. In that year an incident occurred in Sweden which brought him considerable notoriety and which eventually led many to connect Swedenborg for the first time with his unusual theological works, particularly Heaven and Hell. In July, in the city of Gothenburg, approximately 300 miles from Stockholm, .

One detail here gives the game away

Gothenburg is less than 250 miles from Stockholm not "approximately 300 miles" as is claimed, and this was a time before any street lighting,
Swedenborg came in from the garden and announced there was a large fire in Stockholm.
So I'm guessing his paranormal power included an ability to look east at night and a very special ability to see clouds lit by fire
he then manipulated the claims by adding to them the detail about it stopping three doors from his house after the fact, after all the amazing thing here was that he knew there was a fire, not the specific details. He then used this claim of paranormal powers to establish his reputation as a mystic and sold a load of books on the power of peoples ignorance.

 

[Aepervius]

LOL good one I changed my psot to reflect this .

 

[paximperium]

Most logical and simplest explanation.
It did not happened as claimed.

 

[Zanders]

One detail here gives the game away

Gothenburg is less than 250 miles from Stockholm not "approximately 300 miles" as is claimed, and this was a time before any street lighting,
Swedenborg came in from the garden and announced there was a large fire in Stockholm.
So I'm guessing his paranormal power included an ability to look east at night and a very special ability to see clouds lit by fire
he then manipulated the claims by adding to them the detail about it stopping three doors from his house after the fact, after all the amazing thing here was that he knew there was a fire, not the specific details. He then used this claim of paranormal powers to establish his reputation as a mystic and sold a load of books on the power of peoples ignorance.

Him lying to make money of of the books would make sense if that didn't completely contradict his personality.

"Swedenborg had a lifelong aversion to hypocrisy and duplicity, and such false living is impossible in the spirit world. What is “real” about someone are his or her intentions, and in the spirit world, “absolutely everyone is resolved into a state in which he speaks the way he thinks, and displays in his expression and gestures what his intentions are.”"

But hey, it wouldn't be the first time that somebody did that.

 

[PixyMisa]

Also, go to the "Veracity" section on his wikipedia page. One of the things that makes it special is that the specific detials he gave were confirmed, such as it being stopped three doors down from his house.

Confirmed by Kant, who was a thousand miles away at the time.

It's just a story.

 

[PixyMisa]

Him lying to make money of of the books would make sense if that didn't completely contradict his personality.

Swedenborg was, by that time, a loony.

"Swedenborg had a lifelong aversion to hypocrisy and duplicity, and such false living is impossible in the spirit world. What is “real” about someone are his or her intentions, and in the spirit world, “absolutely everyone is resolved into a state in which he speaks the way he thinks, and displays in his expression and gestures what his intentions are.”"

Colour me unconvinced.

 

[paximperium]

I'm still trying to figure something out.
In the entire world of myths, stories, frauds and silly stories, why is this even "fascinating"?

 

[Marduk]

Him lying to make money of of the books would make sense if that didn't completely contradict his personality.

"Swedenborg had a lifelong aversion to hypocrisy and duplicity, and such false living is impossible in the spirit world. What is “real” about someone are his or her intentions, and in the spirit world, “absolutely everyone is resolved into a state in which he speaks the way he thinks, and displays in his expression and gestures what his intentions are.”"

But hey, it wouldn't be the first time that somebody did that.

Graham Hancock claims to be a genuine author, its just everyone else who knows hes a psueudo historian

its in his interests to keep up the deception to his fan base, or they won't buy his books
there is a reason we have words for fraud and charlatan and of course dupe
in Swedenborgs case the fact that hes claming there is a spirit world and that he interacts in it shows him for what he really is
self deluded or just lying

 

[PixyMisa]

I'm still trying to figure something out.
In the entire world of myths, stories, frauds and silly stories, why is this even "fascinating"?

Well, you see, someone said that someone said something, and then some philosopher (who wasn't present and whose major work was wrong from beginning to end but whose name is familiar) didn't say it didn't happen.

That's usually enough.

 

[Marduk]

ok threads done, start feeding the fish with it

 

[Zanders]

In response to the person that said he added the information about it stopping three doors down after the information became available, the above information stated that he mentioned that two days before the messenger arrived and anyone there could have known. But, this whole story afterward could be twisted up like many legends are.

There are many stories with multiple witnesses that claim other psychic powers that Swedenborg possessed, just google "Swedenborg predicted his death" and there are a ton of sites. But like many people have stated earlier, exaggerated stories like this do happen, and there are complete lies that supposedly have "many witnesses". Most of this is really just legend, and after a man has one supposed "psychic" or paranormal event, many others are usually claimed. Thanks for the responses guys, it really does put it in perspective. This was not originally going to be the only thing that I posted in this thread, but it kind of became the focus. There is another story (unrelated to Swedenborg) that I find more interesting than this one, but I might make a whole other thread for it. (and it is not as simple and silly seeming as this one)

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Most logical and simplest explanation.
It did not happened as claimed.

Yep. Most likely just a sort of an urban legend or an exaggerated story like you hear all the time.

I think Marduk and Aepervius are reaching too far. I think autumn1971 is probably on the right track.

Did you see Dan with his green pointy hat? That is the best!
I have to get going.
Why? Stay!
I have to get back to my manuscripts.
No, they are fine. Have another pastry.
Really, I have to go home. There could be a fire near my house or something like that that I need to attend to. I need to get going.
Just stay for a little bit. Have a pastry.
OK. Just a few minutes. But I really have to get going then.
Aren’t the green pointed hats just the most darling fashionable hats?
I have to step outside for a minute.
I’ve never seen HIM wearing a fashionable green pointed hat. He is a bit odd with his whole manuscripts and “maybe there is a fire” bit. Have you noticed?
OK. I really have to get going. Maybe things are fine at home, but I just have to go home now.

Turns out, there was a fire near his home. Ain’t that odd? He totally predicted it! He “saw” the fire and then “knew” that the fire was out and everything was “fine”. That’s what he said. It was totally freaky. He knew that there was fire and that it was about to burn down his house, but then he went out and came back and said that the fire stopped three houses down from his and then it turned out he was EXACTLY right. Must be paranormal, huh?

 

[PixyMisa]

Certainly a possiblity - things like that happen all the time. Principle of Oddmatches plus the Tale that Grew in the Telling.

 

[Zanders]

Even if the psychic account ended up being true, that doesn't say much about his "visions", some of which are almost ridiculous to the point of taking away all of his credibility.

"In Earths in the Universe Swedenborg claimed that the moon is peopled by a race which speaks through its stomachs – the sound is like belching."

 

[Marduk]

Even if the psychic account ended up being true, that doesn't say much about his "visions", some of which are almost ridiculous to the point of taking away all of his credibility.

"In Earths in the Universe Swedenborg claimed that the moon is peopled by a race which speaks through its stomachs – the sound is like belching."

what was your other example, this ones done, plenty of room for a new one

this is fun btw
thanks

 

[Zanders]

Next is something related to a man named "Wallace Fard Muhammad", the man that started "The Nation of Islam" (which barely has anything to do with Islam and is a racist cult) The information he gives is startlingly accurate for a man like him to know so long ago (unless I am misinformed)

""In 1930, when Master Fard Muhammad came, He told us that, “The total area of the land and water of the planet Earth is 196,940,000 square miles.” He said, “The circumference of the planet Earth is 24,896 miles,” and, all of us had to memorize this. “The diameter of the earth is 7,926 miles; the area of land is 57,255,000 square miles; the area of water is 139,685,000 square miles.” He said “The Pacific Ocean covers 68,634,000 square miles and the Atlantic Ocean covers 41,321,000 square miles.”

“The Indian Ocean,” He said, “covers 29,430,000 square miles, and the lakes and rivers cover 1,000,000 square miles. The hills and the mountains cover 14,000,000 square miles; the islands are 1,910,000 square miles; and the deserts are 4,861,000 square miles. Mount Everest is 29,141 feet high, and the producing land is 29,000,000 square miles. The earth weighs 6 sextillion tons—a ‘6' followed by 21 zeros—and is 93,000,000 miles from the sun, traveling at the rate of 1,037 1/3 miles per hour. Light travels at the rate of 186,000 miles per second, and sound travels at the rate of 1,120 feet per second. The diameter of the sun is 853,000 miles.”

We were just students under a Master Teacher who asked us to study. Then, Master Fard Muhammad began to tell us about the distance of the planets and the life that is on the planets. He taught Elijah Muhammad, who was from the cotton fields of Georgia, and, who only went to the fourth grade of school. If you compare what Master Fard Muhammad said in 1930 (now 79 years ago), with the dimensions that the scholars have given, every year they have gotten closer and closer, until now their computations are similar with Master Fard Muhammad's. He is the man Who taught Elijah Muhammad, and came to raise us up from a dead level and make us rulers over those who once ruled us—not by guns and sticks, but by giving us a superior knowledge."

The information is not spot on, but some of it is still way closer than anyone should have been able to know at the time, especially somebody like him. Look the man up on wikipedia to get his back story, and also google his name along with "measurements earth water" and such to see more information on his supposed super knowledge.

 

[PixyMisa]

The information is not spot on, but some of it is still way closer than anyone should have been able to know at the time

Nope.