Can anybody help me find a logical explanation for this stuff?

[Zanders]

What about renowned architect Sir Christopher Wren, 90 (20 October 1632 – 25 February 1723) or clock maker John Harrison, 83 (24 March 1693 – 24 March 1776)?


If he believed what he said, would that make any of his claims true? Many people are deluded even today.


I really fail to see why this is interesting, except for a historian or theologian. Satan does not become real because someone thinks there are more of them, nor does the concept angels become real because someone thinks they are normal people.


Which would make him a first, but not give any of his visions credibility.


So the man was versatile. Odd breathing techniques can enhance your ability to have hallucinations, but would there is no indication that this was anything more than hallucinations.

He actually said that there was no Satan. His concepts were very strange for Christians at the time, and he was originally a Protestant. His visions made him change a lot around, and it fits a lot of what spiritualists and mystics say.

I should have known the age thing was completely stupid. Please post some more old people from that time period if you can.

On the breathing technique, I was thinking the same thing. That could be a good explanation for what made him have so many delusions while seeming perfectly sane to others.

I just wonder why he said that he actually did the things like the finding the lost receipt or talking to the person's brother. I guess there is the chance that what he did was a trick, but he thought it was divinely inspired. Some people today do cold reading and such but think it is through help from spirits. But if you look in the documents for the testimony of "Cuno" he mentions him knowing about somebody not being dead when everyone else thought so, because he talked to spirits about it. This was written by somebody that didn't even mention it as miraculous, and wasn't on his side. He was neutral, and even criticized his theology a little bit.

And then we get to the singular message supposedly shared by all of these people. The book I linked to says that the interpretations and message is strikingly similar between all of the people mentioned in it. But I read a letter from Swedenborg where he said that he never read any mystics writings. I have only read a small bit, and I know I should probably read through all of it it and I will realize that it's nothing special, but I am a little worried it might be presented in a say that makes it look too convincing.

 

[Helen]

Zander, even if people in Swedenborg's time knew less about the world than we do now, perhaps, they still did not live in complete isolation. Linné and his followers travelled extensively, and interest in strange, exotic customs was high at the time. Swedenborg was educated and read extensively.

Also, you seem to believe that he either tricked people knowingly, or believed in what he said himself. It would seem more than likely to me that it might be a bit of both.

And really, if you still believe there is something in all this, it's because you want to believe.

 

[Sledge]

Zanders, please stop. You want to believe in this stuff. I have no idea why, it seems to be ********* from start to finish, but that's up to you. I don't understand why you feel the need to bring every story about some long dead dude to the forum and say "But this MUST be true, right?" No. It's not true. He was just a man. He had no special powers or abilities, with the possible exception of a good ability to make people believe crap.

 

[wardenclyffe]

And I don't understand why it's important that he seemed sincere at the time. We can trot out all kinds of people who will tell you that John Edward, Sylvia Browne, James van Praagh, etc. are sincere and real and would never lie or try to trick people. Now we learn once again, through your careful research, that this phenomenon is nothing new.

The dots are all there, you just seem to have trouble connecting the last two.

Ward

 

[wardenclyffe]

John Adams 91
Benjamin Franklin 84
Thomas Jefferson 83
Issac Newton 84
Pope Clement X 86
Daniel Boone 86

 

[Zanders]

No, I am not reading any more in to this and I have discontinued doing any more research on paranormal and mystical stuff like this. My current goal is to get the things that are lingering and bothering me out of the way. I am mostly out of it but a few things keep me feeling stuck. (Mostly this here and Fatima)

What concerns me the most now is what I mentioned in this post here.

From what I have seen the mystical interpretations of these books and messages supposedly received by supernatural means is extremely consistent in it's themes and meaning. I don't actually want to beleive this stuff, I just obsess over the little details wondering if I am missing something or ignoring it. (I even got worried about the fact that his name was Emmanuel, thinking that the Biblical prophecy about the name could be related. Even though he never claimed it was, and that was the reason he got that name in the first place) I don't know why this subject makes me so irrational.

And what about this?.

"Swedenborg stated that there were a set of sacred texts among an "Ancient Church" in the Middle East which preceded Judaism, which he called the Ancient Word. These were divinely inspired, but they were falsified by many[who?], until the texts became lost over time. Some of these are quoted in the Bible, such as The Wars of Jehovah (Num. 21:14-15) and another book similar to those in the Prophets (Num. 21:27-30).[20] Another work that Swedenborg said belonged to the Ancient Church was the Book of Jasher, which is also quoted in the Bible (Josh. 10:12-13, 2 Sam. 1:17-18), which Swedenborg stated was still extant in Tartary.[21] A Hebrew midrash called Jasher (see Sefer haYashar) was published in Venice in 1625, and an English translation was published in 1840. The Hebrew text was examined by the 19th century biblical scholar George Bush a relative of the Bush political family, who later became a Swedenborgian minister. Although the New Church has no official position on this Hebrew text, Swedenborg stated that the first portions of Genesis was taken from the Ancient Word,[22] and these portions do happen to be found in the book of Jasher.[citation needed] Scholars, however, have identified late additions to this Hebrew text." (the wikipedia page)

An older post I would still like people to take a look at and comment on is this post. It was not related to Swedenborg, but got passed over due to all the talk of him.

 

[steenkh]

What concerns me the most now is what I mentioned in this post here.

What did you not understand in the replies you got at that time?

From what I have seen the mystical interpretations of these books and messages supposedly received by supernatural means is extremely consistent in it's themes and meaning.

Why is that impressive?

(I even got worried about the fact that his name was Emmanuel, thinking that the Biblical prophecy about the name could be related. Even though he never claimed it was, and that was the reason he got that name in the first place)

Good thing that you are not worried over this any more. Lots of people are called Biblical names: that is absolutely not supernatural.

"Swedenborg stated that there were a set of sacred texts among an "Ancient Church" in the Middle East which preceded Judaism, which he called the Ancient Word. These were divinely inspired, but they were falsified by many[who?], until the texts became lost over time. Some of these are quoted in the Bible, such as The Wars of Jehovah (Num. 21:14-15) and another book similar to those in the Prophets (Num. 21:27-30).[20] Another work that Swedenborg said belonged to the Ancient Church was the Book of Jasher, which is also quoted in the Bible (Josh. 10:12-13, 2 Sam. 1:17-18), which Swedenborg stated was still extant in Tartary.[21]

What is impressive about Swedenborg making claims about "lost texts" that nobody can check?

A Hebrew midrash called Jasher (see Sefer haYashar) was published in Venice in 1625, and an English translation was published in 1840. The Hebrew text was examined by the 19th century biblical scholar George Bush a relative of the Bush political family, who later became a Swedenborgian minister. Although the New Church has no official position on this Hebrew text, Swedenborg stated that the first portions of Genesis was taken from the Ancient Word,[22] and these portions do happen to be found in the book of Jasher.[citation needed] Scholars, however, have identified late additions to this Hebrew text." (the wikipedia page)

Swedenborg seems to have read a book published in 1625, and makes a claim about this book that is not accepted by modern scholars. Why would this indicate that he could visit supernatural worlds?

An older post I would still like people to take a look at and comment on is this post. It was not related to Swedenborg, but got passed over due to all the talk of him.

OK, Wallace Fard Muhammad. You asked if knowledge of the distance to the planets was common at the time? The planet Neptune was discovered in the 1840's on the basis of calculations of the planet orbits that showed the existence of an unknown planet. Surely this detailed knowledge of planet distances and orbits was available in the 1930's.

 

[Zanders]

If Swedenborg was just seeking attention, why did he publish is earliest work anonymously? I mentioned this back on page 2. He also had a religious background before he started going in to his visionary faze.

And one thing that still seems fascinating is the similar outline for what the spirit world is like. The way it is divided in to all of these separate planes with certain types of people dwelling on certain plains higher or lower. It wasn't a usual Christian concept then, but many mystics mention the spirit world as being like that now.

 

[tsig]

If Swedenborg was just seeking attention, why did he publish is earliest work anonymously? I mentioned this back on page 2. He also had a religious background before he started going in to his visionary faze.

And one thing that still seems fascinating is the similar outline for what the spirit world is like. The way it is divided in to all of these separate planes with certain types of people dwelling on certain plains higher or lower. It wasn't a usual Christian concept then, but many mystics mention the spirit world as being like that now.

Delusional people share delusions therefore spirit world?

 

[wardenclyffe]

If Swedenborg was just seeking attention, why did he publish is earliest work anonymously? I mentioned this back on page 2. He also had a religious background before he started going in to his visionary faze.

Perhaps for money, perhaps to see what kind of outcry there would be---to see if it was safe to publish at all, perhaps because he was crazy. Remember the old "Jesus was either a criminal, crazy or the Son of God" thing? Well that applies to Swedenborg, L. Ron Hubbard, Sylvia Browne, etc., etc.. With more recent people, it might be easier to tell because there's more evidence. The fact that Swedenborg lived so long ago means that there's less evidence to show that he was either crazy or a conman or that he was really divinely inspired. We use our judgement based on what evidence we have. I know you are trying to do that. I don't understand why you are struggling so much with it.

And one thing that still seems fascinating is the similar outline for what the spirit world is like. The way it is divided in to all of these separate planes with certain types of people dwelling on certain plains higher or lower. It wasn't a usual Christian concept then, but many mystics mention the spirit world as being like that now.

How would you create a fantasy world? Just like in the real world, there would be some sort of hierarchy. Some people would be richer, or live on a higher level or live on a higher plane or have more powerful magic than others. Just like the land of Oz or Narnia or Hogwarts. Some achieve higher levels than others. It's pretty standard fare. Why do the authors of these fantasies (or mystical afterlives or 7th Heavens) all seem to create these hierarchies? It's because they want their readers to relate to the fantasy world, so they make it like our own world with ranks and levels and castes.

Ward

 

[Jack by the hedge]

An older post I would still like people to take a look at and comment on is this post. It was not related to Swedenborg, but got passed over due to all the talk of him.

My recollection is that it was not passed over at all. I seem to remember it was pointed out at the time that the facts and figures quoted could have been lifted from any decent encyclopedia of the time, freely available in any public library.

 

[Zanders]

There was also the fact that his concept of what God is fits with what sufis and other mystical movements thought and think today. It was very different from the traditional Christian God. Of course, you have already said that he could have read those works and just not admitted to it. Also, a coincidence is possible. I linked to the actual book its self here, but I accidentally called both links reviews.

But when it comes to people with powers. Evidence does suggest that there is really no such thing. But if there were, would it not be possible that they are extremely few and far between? Like they only show up once in over a hundred years when somebody would be needed to do a certain mission, and given some specific abilities. Is it not possible that even if there are mostly frauds out there, there could be a few people with a mission, uninterested in proving anything to anyone by using powers for the very same Swedenborg said that using miracles was bad?

If I had posted the official documents on the life and character of Swedenborg, this thread would not be as messy. It has all of the stories I talked about, and with multiple takes on them by different people, and they could all be searched for by keyword.

I have a quick question about something, even though some people tried to go over it earlier. Most of what Swedenborg did could be called cold and hot reading stories that just got elaborated on, but how do you think the fire event came about? And there is not good proof that it happened, but how would he have gotten the idea to send a letter to Wesley when Wesley didn't tell anyone that he wanted to talk to him?

The last story most likely didn't happen since Wesley never talked about it, but the fire is still the most confusing one. Oddly enough the reason I even thought about this story again was because it popped up in a dream, even though I hadn't thought of it in a while.

 

[Sledge]

But when it comes to people with powers. Evidence does suggest that there is really no such thing. But if there were, would it not be possible that they are extremely few and far between?

Do you ever stop and look at what you've just written? You're asking people to speculate on how something that doesn't exist would work. We're not a Star Trek technical manual.

 

[Zanders]

Do you ever stop and look at what you've just written? You're asking people to speculate on how something that doesn't exist would work. We're not a Star Trek technical manual.

Right, I didn't say that right. What I meant was that there is a lack of good evidence for "psychic powers", but what about prophets that only come about hundreds of years apart who are not given consistent abilities. Still that doesn't make much sense, sorry.

But discussing the similarities, Swedenborg says that we have at least two guardian angels.

"Another special use is their ministry with each individual in this world protecting us (so far as we allow them) against selfish thoughts and desires coming from the activity of evil spirits by bringing counterbalancing influences leading us to make spiritually healthy choices.

We are generally unconscious of this process except when difficult choices trouble our conscience - the tip of the spiritual temptation "iceberg". At least two guardian angels are constantly with us and it is this presence, bringing teaching, healing and comfort, of which we can become directly aware, but only if that is what is best for our eternal, spiritual welfare."

I googled "two guardian angels" and this seems to be a common belief now. Lots of people even say "at least two". So I'm wondering where this started. I thought most Christians believed in a single guardian angel.

One person said "have worked with thousands of people over the last 15 years and every person I have met has had at least two Guardian Angels.", so again this is something that seems to be in line with modern spirituality. (Maybe he was responsible for it catching on)

Edit: I did a search for Guardian angels + Kabballah and I saw the "at least two guardian angels thing". Islam also has the Kiraman Katibin, which are two angels assigned to every human being. These angels don't do anything other than record people's deeds without ever interfering with the person, so they certainly aren't the same. It is also specifically two of them, not "at least".

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Swedenborg says that we have at least two guardian angels.


I googled "two guardian angels" and this seems to be a common belief now.

How do you judge by Googling if a thing is commonly believed?

Lots of people even say "at least two". So I'm wondering where this started. I thought most Christians believed in a single guardian angel.

Belief in guardian angels started before Christianity did. However I wouldn't be surprised if most Christians don't actually believe in guardian angels at all. It's not an article of faith.

One person said "have worked with thousands of people over the last 15 years and every person I have met has had at least two Guardian Angels.", so again this is something that seems to be in line with modern spirituality. (Maybe he was responsible for it catching on)

Maybe he was delusional and seeing things which weren't there. That happens. There's evidence for people having hallucinations. Angels, not so much.

 

[Zanders]

How do you judge by Googling if a thing is commonly believed?Belief in guardian angels started before Christianity did. However I wouldn't be surprised if most Christians don't actually believe in guardian angels at all. It's not an article of faith.

Maybe he was delusional and seeing things which weren't there. That happens. There's evidence for people having hallucinations. Angels, not so much.

Actually, the concept of a guardian angel was first introduced in Zoroastrianism, but then it was further developed in the Bible to become what it is today.

I was talking about the specific "two or more" thing.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I was talking about the specific "two or more" thing.

How do you judge by Googling if the two or more thing is commonly believed?

 

[wardenclyffe]

So, if two angels is a belief of Islam, it certainly did not start with Swedenborg. Perhaps he embellished it, but he certainly didn't invent it.

And the fire thing, if you go back and read the beginning of this thread, was not that well documented. And if he got a lucky guess, so what?

How would you tell the difference between a prophet who is "not given consistent abilities" and someone who wins the lottery?

Ward

 

[dlorde]

I was talking about the specific "two or more" thing.

Is that how many they say can dance on the head of a pin these days?

 

[Zanders]

So, if two angels is a belief of Islam, it certainly did not start with Swedenborg. Perhaps he embellished it, but he certainly didn't invent it.

And the fire thing, if you go back and read the beginning of this thread, was not that well documented. And if he got a lucky guess, so what?

How would you tell the difference between a prophet who is "not given consistent abilities" and someone who wins the lottery?

Ward

That part isn't that similar. The thing on Swedenborg stated that it was "two or more", and the Islamic ones were specifically two non guardians that just kept records.

And on the fire, much more information is in the documents I linked to. If you search for "Stockholm" and "fire" or "Kant" you can find the multiple sections on it. I have forgotten a lot that was said in it because I tried to get it off of my mind and stay away from it for a bit.

How do you judge by Googling if the two or more thing is commonly believed?

It isn't. I will have to do more reading on the subject, but I don't feel like doing it now. It really wears me down.