Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RoseMontague]

Why is it perfectly understandable for AK and RS to be confused and "misremember" stuff but it's not acceptable for anyone else in this case to do the same?

The correct question should be why does Massei find witnesses that are confused and "misremember" stuff as credible but doesn't give the same consideration to Raffaele and the Knox girl? Nara is confused about the next morning, Curatolo is confused about the previous evening and the next morning and the disco buses, a police inspector can't remember whether he walked into the murder room, Filomena can't remember if the shutters were open or closed, Stefanoni can't remember to change gloves, Quintavalle can't remember his TV interview, the list just goes on and on.

 

[JREF2010]

Why is it perfectly understandable for AK and RS to be confused and "misremember" stuff but it's not acceptable for anyone else in this case to do the same?

or likewise, some who get confused are liars, while others are equally as confused and are deemed credible..why?

this situation is why I prefer cell phone logs and technical evidence instead of someones "gut instinct" on credible or not.

 

[RoseMontague]

I have compiled a list of quotes on the lamp issue from the various reports (not mentioned in the Matteini report that I saw:

Rudy on lamp (Micheli report)

Described the entity in question as little lower than him, of similar build, with light jeans, a black jacket brand Napapijri «which had seen the logo, a white cap on a red stripe in the middle and his hair - which could be seen below - pale brown: was not able to provide a better description precisely because of the aggression in place, which prompted him to be careful not to be hurt, even if the man had drawn his hand grazed right.Moreover, the lighting was quite low, because there was only on a lampshade in the bedroom of the victim.

Then (Rudy) repeated the version already presented last, returning to describe the young man he saw and out - in addition to the availability of any respect - that he made a «conviction seeing pictures in the papers» then added that as far as he could remember, the lamp black had seen some photographs of the procedural, set in the ground in the room of M., there was probably when he had lent her aid, having had the impression that the beam of light came from a different direction.
The lamp in question, meanwhile, was recognized by R. and M. as part of the allocation of furniture in the room of K., who had no lights (and in fact, in the survey, were not found other sources of lighting in the room).

It is incorrect to say that there are things that brought the victim out of the room, returned there after being placed elsewhere, perhaps in places where they could be (somehow, then) biological traces of S. It is true that the lamp black ( belonging to K, and it happens in the chamber of M.) Nov. 2 that was near the bed, with cable and plug door, or by the plug inward, you are found outside the December 18 over the desk, and the thread would end just below the pad, near the famous strip of cloth with the hook, but - seeing the same images - we understand that the cable was a few inches from the hook, not above or contact .

From Rudy appeal doc (Borsinsi)

He said traces of their presence in the apartment the evening of 1 November 2007, testified by the traces of D NA urge on the piece of cloth with bra hooks the victim's home by the discovery of Sollecito, where the victim not, had never been (Romanelli heads) of the knife, the experts considered compatible with the wounds, at least with the deeper introducing traces of Knox on the handle and traces of Kercher on the blade * presence supported by the discovery of the lamp in Amanda room of Meredith (Romanelli and Mezzetti declarations of May 7, 2008), their lies, including that of Sollecito isp. Battistelli had called the police, call, however, was made after the arrival of the police post, the interruption of telephone traffic of the two phones, detected by printouts from approximately 21.00 .1 November morning the next day, from the impression of the foot, consistent with that reminder on the bath mat (advice Bohemia-Rinaldi), the footprints of the two detected by Luminol. by the discovery in blood stains on the sink and washed on the bidet, the genetic material due not only to the victim, the Knox (see Stefanoni deposition), the phrase "I was there," Amanda let slip in conversation intercepted with parents in the home district

Massei report:

As for the black lamp discovered in Meredith’s room, she couldn’t give an
explanation. She remembered that she had an identical lamp, but she didn’t know if it was still there, since she didn’t pay attention to it.

for her own room, she hadn’t taken note of the missing table lamp. The main light didn’t work. In order to get dressed she didn’t need to turn on the light because it was late morning and natural light came in from the front balcony to her room.

(Stefanoni)
104

She specified that during the search she touched various objects with the same gloves without stopping to change gloves each time an individual object was touched. She insisted on having searched Meredith’s room: that she was in the corridor and left without going into any other rooms, adding that "every time we entered and left the house we changed shoe covers and gloves" (page 261). She recalled that when she entered Meredith’s room "there was a black lamp that had fallen behind the door. Then there was Meredith’s lamp, which was by the bedside; it was on the floor between her bedside table and bed" (page 268).

Meredith's lamp is shown in this picture:

There is some questioning from both Mignini and the Kercher's lawyer in Amanda's testimony where both seem to imply that the attempt to break down the door was to retrieve the lamp. Amanda sticks to her story that she does not even notice it was missing from her room.

There is a lot of detail in the Micheli report concerning various things seen on the floor in Meredith's room but neither lamp is mentioned in that long descriptive.

 

[Withnail1969]

Apparently the prosecution are going to claim that the buses Curatolo claimed to have seen with young people getting on them going to discos were actually 'tourist buses'. Napoleoni's going to testify.

'Tourist buses' which wait until 11:30 pm and then depart, going who knows where? On an Italian national holiday? Do tourists normally travel overnight? Great way to see the countryside and get charged for an additional day in your hotel.

 

[katy_did]

Why is it perfectly understandable for AK and RS to be confused and "misremember" stuff but it's not acceptable for anyone else in this case to do the same?

Alt, I wouldn't consider Raffaele to be a credible witness if he claimed to have seen a murder suspect in a particular location on 1 November either - his memory isn't clear enough, and he seems (like Nara and Curatolo) to have become confused with a previous night. It's "perfectly understandable" that any of them might become confused and misremember things, but if they do, it isn't safe to rely on their eyewitness testimony to help convict someone of murder.

 

[katy_did]

Apparently the prosecution are going to claim that the buses Curatolo claimed to have seen with young people getting on them going to discos were actually 'tourist buses'. Napoleoni's going to testify.

Maybe she is going to testify that Curatolo didn't see young people getting on disco buses, he just saw young people getting on buses to go to discos. LOL.

I'm curious as to what tourist buses would have been running at 11:00 at night too. Guess we'll see.

 

[Matthew Best]

The experts have requested to be able to break open the knife handle - yes! Now come on judges, grant that request, please grant it. It cannot be right not to look at the possibility and if (it's a large if) it is granted then imagine the possible scenario - traces of Meredith's DNA/blood are found in the cracks...

If I was a judge in that court, I would be watching the reactions to any granting of that request closely.

[The] defence did not raise any objections as predicted. But the other parties, prosecution and Meredith's lawyer did raise strong objections.

No comment necessary.

 

[Katody Matrass]

No comment necessary.

The prosecution really protested against dismantling the knife? That's pathetic.

Looks like apart from reviewing Stefanoni's methods they'll test the knife thoroughly again. It could be they'll find there DNA of various individuals, ILE including, but none of Meredith's.

 

[Withnail1969]

Maybe she is going to testify that Curatolo didn't see young people getting on disco buses, he just saw young people getting on buses to go to discos. LOL.

I'm curious as to what tourist buses would have been running at 11:00 at night too. Guess we'll see.

I'm no longer optimistic about the appeal. If Napoleoni goes on the stand, whatever rubbish she says about non-existent tourist buses will be accepted. If anyone questions her statements they'll be jailed for calunnia. It's impossible to win against this insane mediaeval system.

 

[katy_did]

No comment necessary.

The request had the prosecution and the Kerchers' lawyers practically jumping out of their seats, apparently, especially Manuela Comodi. Curious - you would think that if they believed in the knife DNA result, they'd be keen to have the rest of the knife tested to try and find a stronger trace of Meredith's DNA. What possible reason could they have for being unhappy about it?

Wonder why the experts made the extra request to have the handle of the knife removed. IIRC this is a request also made by the defence in their appeal documents. Positive for the defence, perhaps, since it may indicate the experts have already decided the knife evidence is weak on its own?

 

[Matthew Best]

What possible reason could they have for being unhappy about it?

I can't quite figure out what their objection would be. It's not as though finding nothing more on the knife is going to prove anybody's innocence (though I agree it would be good news for the defence), but finding more Kercher DNA would be a terrible blow to the defendants - so why would the defence be requesting the tests and the prosecution objecting to them?

 

[Alt+F4]

I'm curious as to what tourist buses would have been running at 11:00 at night too. Guess we'll see.

It could have been buses dropping tourists back in Perugia after day trips in Assisi, Gubbio or other "medieval" towns in Umbria. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard for someone fluent in Italian to read the bus schedules.

The question then becomes how much do the tourist buses look like the disco buses?

 

[billyryan]

I can't quite figure out what their objection would be. It's not as though finding nothing more on the knife is going to prove anybody's innocence (though I agree it would be good news for the defence), but finding more Kercher DNA would be a terrible blow to the defendants - so why would the defence be requesting the tests and the prosecution objecting to them?

I think it is pretty simple Matthew Best,the police collected a knife from Raffaele house took it to the police station,took it out of whatever container it was in rubbed the blade on something belonging to Meredith and the handle on something belonging to Amanda then repackaged it and sent it to Stefanoni to test,the blood that would have soaked into the handle if it was involved in a murder,if the outburst of Camodi and the Kerchers lawyer was not just an act,was not taken care of at the time and has not been possible since

 

[Justinian2]

Why is it perfectly understandable for AK and RS to be confused and "misremember" stuff but it's not acceptable for anyone else in this case to do the same?

Stuff is what? Are we talking about relevent stuff for both?

Is the stuff something that you can remember? I can't remember what I ate for breakfast that morning or even where I was that morning. I could probably piece together where I was by looking at my resume, but I can't even remember what city I was in.

Thirdly, Amanda and Raffaele are responsible for their alibi. They aren't trying to prove their own guilt. The prosecution has to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, so it is their responsibility to get their own facts straight.

Amanda and Raffaele work to prove and defend their alibi.
The prosecution works to prove and defend their case.

A good alibi or absence of evidence by the prosecution would normally get Amanda and Raffaele off.

 

[Dan O.]

Was there really an objection with any kind of merit or did the prosecution just object that retesting the knife would be a waste of the courts time? I'm worried that they already know what the results are going to be and the objection was just for show. The prosecution has had that knife in their possession for 3 years and we already know that certain police officers are willing to open sealed evidence bags containing knives for no justifiable reason.

 

[Withnail1969]

Was there really an objection with any kind of merit or did the prosecution just object that retesting the knife would be a waste of the courts time? I'm worried that they already know what the results are going to be and the objection was just for show. The prosecution has had that knife in their possession for 3 years and we already know that certain police officers are willing to open sealed evidence bags containing knives for no justifiable reason.

It's probably irrelevant for either side. It's a cheap kitchen knife with the plastic handle moulded onto the blade. Nothing's going to get in that gap because there isn't a gap.

 

[Justinian2]

Was there really an objection with any kind of merit or did the prosecution just object that retesting the knife would be a waste of the courts time? I'm worried that they already know what the results are going to be and the objection was just for show. The prosecution has had that knife in their possession for 3 years and we already know that certain police officers are willing to open sealed evidence bags containing knives for no justifiable reason.

Then we are both are afraid that the police will contaminate the evidence.

 

[Withnail1969]

It could have been buses dropping tourists back in Perugia after day trips in Assisi, Gubbio or other "medieval" towns in Umbria. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard for someone fluent in Italian to read the bus schedules.

The question then becomes how much do the tourist buses look like the disco buses?

I took a look at the bus schedules. The buses to other towns in Umbria don't arrive or depart from Curatolo's hangout in Piazza Grimana.

 

[katy_did]

It could have been buses dropping tourists back in Perugia after day trips in Assisi, Gubbio or other "medieval" towns in Umbria. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard for someone fluent in Italian to read the bus schedules.

The question then becomes how much do the tourist buses look like the disco buses?

Except that I think Curatolo said he saw young people getting on disco buses, not getting off them. Well, he said that during the first trial anyway, though perhaps he's remembered something different since. Would he really have gotten tourists mixed up with young people going clubbing?

Interesting decision by the prosecution to call Curatolo to the stand again. Bit risky, could go either way (like Aviello/Alessi for the defence).

 

[Justinian2]

Amanda's step dad said:

"It's hard not to be impatient but what can you do? Amanda's not getting any younger and she has been in jail now for well over three years and she doesn't deserve being in there.

"She's doing all right but I think the days of her relaxed attitude are behind her.

"She could relax during the last trial because she felt she would be released because she is innocent but she knows that the truth didn't matter then and so now she is more apprehensive. She just wants to get this all out of the way."

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...eal-hearing-15061308.html?r=RSS#ixzz1BmkF2NWN

Amanda is only eye witness to her own actions that night. If she's innocent, then she would say things like this.