Who started both World Wars?

[9/11-investigator]

Not sure what you want to say with your wikipedia article quote, but I have to admit I was too quick while glancing over the IHR Remer article. My mistake, my apologies. I had never heard of Remer before.

My observation that he arrives at the same conclusion as Suvorov, namely that Barbarossa was a preemptive attack, still stands. And that is what is most important in the context of this thread.

 

[MG1962]

So you are claiming that Soviet forces were not amassing along the western border?!

Got any evidence?

I mean, the Naval Institute and Hudson Institute are taking Suvorov seriously and C-Span as well.

Why does anyone have to supply proof. It is your theory. You have demonstrate the force existed. You have to supply the projected OOB and you have to explain why this force failed so totally when the Germans attacked

 

[Hans]

Mind you, this general Remer was not a Nazi die-hard, but he was involved in the plot to kill Hitler!
And it is him who says that Barbarossa was a forced pre-emptive attack.

Tell us 9/11 when did Hitler tell his generals to start planning for an invasion of Russia? When was that date again? LOL

Remer also claims that:

Q: Is it true that the Germans referred to the Russians as "subhumans"?
A: Nonsense! The Russians are human beings just like everyone else.
Your question, whether we called the Russians "subhumans," is nonsense. We had a first-class relationship with the Russian people. The only exception, which was a problem we dealt with, was with the Soviet Commissars, who were all Jews. These people stood behind the lines with machine guns, pushing the Russian soldiers into battle. And anyway, we made quick work of them. That was according to order. This was during a war for basic existence, an ideological war, when such a policy is simply taken for granted.
There was sometimes talk about the so-called Asian hordes, and ordinary soldiers sometimes spoke about subhumans, but such language was never officially used.

This is of course a lie...

"Der Untermensch", edited by Himmler and distributed by the Race and Settlement Head Office. Published in 1942 after the start of Operation Barbarossa, it is around fifty pages long and consists for the most part of photos casting an extremely negative light on the enemy (see link below for the title page). 3,860,995 copies were printed in the German language. It was also translated into Greek, French, Dutch, Danish, Bulgarian, Hungarian and Czech and seven other languages. The pamphlet states the following:
Just as the night rises against the day, the light and dark are in eternal conflict. So too, is the subhuman the greatest enemy of the dominant species on earth, mankind. The subhuman is a biological creature, crafted by nature, which has hands, legs, eyes and mouth, even the semblance of a brain. Nevertheless, this terrible creature is only a partial human being.
Although it has features similar to a human, the subhuman is lower on the spiritual and psychological scale than any animal. Inside of this creature lies wild and unrestrained passions: an incessant need to destroy, filled with the most primitive desires, chaos and coldhearted villainy.
A subhuman and nothing more!

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/deruntermensch.html


Well so much for Remers creditability

 

[9/11-investigator]

Why does anyone have to supply proof. It is your theory. You have demonstrate the force existed. You have to supply the projected OOB and you have to explain why this force failed so totally when the Germans attacked

I was not around at the time, let alone in the Soviet neighbourhood to carry out reconnaisance myself. But even if I was, you would not believe me anyway since I am an 'evil Nazi and anti-semite', right?

I have Suvorov. I have Remer. I have Walter Post and a host of modern historians. I have a host of post-Soviet historians like Chmelnizky (Überfall auf Europa), who say the same, based on research in archives.

http://www.weltnetzladen.com/printable/images/ueberfallaufeuropa_160.gif

Can you point to a source that explicitly denies that Soviet troops were amassing along the western border?

 

[Hans]

Why does anyone have to supply proof. It is your theory. You have demonstrate the force existed. You have to supply the projected OOB and you have to explain why this force failed so totally when the Germans attacked

Where is the Soviet Staff study? What were the objectives. Oddly knowing of this has been found in the archieves - nor commented on by Soviet or Russian planners. American historians who have access to the Soviet records find no record of it either....why is that I wonder?

 

[MG1962]

Can you point to a source that explicitly denies that Soviet troops were amassing along the western border?

Sorry history does not work that way. It is not my job to prove a negative. It is your job to show evidence of an event. Hans and I have given you a list of the sort of detail we need to see, any one or two of them would do. So rather than duck and weave I suggest you get on with your homework

 

[Hans]

On July 21 1940 Hitler directed General Field Marshal Walthier Von Brauchchitsch to begin planning to invade the Soviet Union the plan was initially called Fritz and later Directive 21 in December 1940 Hitler gave it its famous name and order it for May 1941.

So how did Hitler know in July 1940 that the 'Soviets were going to invade'

LOL

 

[Hans]

I noticed that a similar discussion is going on at rodoh.

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/10804/WW2-revisionist-claims?page=6

I should remember that in case I defeat you all, uhhh... I mean to say I am banned here, so that I can go there and subject 'my' theories to further hostile examination.

Feel free to leave at anytime with your reputation for a stunning lack of historical knowledge, verified and confirmed!

So Remer says that the nice old Hitler didn't think the Russian were sub humans - what about that Himmler document?? Any comments? What silence. Denial by silence? LOL

 

[Hans]

Here is another question 9/11 will run away from. What was Stalin's reaction to Hitlers attack against him.

Come on 9/11 TRY and do so research, tell us what Stalin did, did he immediately order his attack to go in?

Did the Soviet artillery immediately implement their prep plan? If not why not?

I look forward to either a stunning inept reply or total denial by silence......

 

[9/11-investigator]

Sorry history does not work that way. It is not my job to prove a negative. It is your job to show evidence of an event. Hans and I have given you a list of the sort of detail we need to see, any one or two of them would do. So rather than duck and weave I suggest you get on with your homework

Why don't you read the transcript of a recorded discussion between Hitler and Finnish Marshal Mannerheim:

Nobody doubts it authenticity...

He does not talk about Soviet troops amassing near the border (nor denies it), yet he says:

If I had an idea - then I would have been even more difficult for me, but I would have taken the decision [to invade] anyhow, because - there was no other possibility.

This does not sound like Djenghis Kahn 2.0 conquering Russia just for the heck of it, now does it?... "there was no other possibility"

Our whole armament - you know, was - is a pure good weather armament. It is very capable, very good, but it is unfortunately just a good-weather armament. We have seen this in the war. Our weapons naturally were made for the west

There you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. Hitler expected a possible war in the West against those who could not tolerate the existence of a large German state in the first place. Hitler wanted to reverse Versailles, remember? And who had imposed Versailles on Germany? Right, the western powers. Who was he dealing with all the time, like in Munich? Right, British and French politicians.

Is there still anybody who wants to defend the ludicrous idea of a planned German attack on the USSR on the basis of this A1-quality of evidence?

No?

 

[MG1962]

Why don't you read the transcript of a recorded discussion between Hitler and Finnish Mannerheim:

http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-general/10807-conversation-between-mannerheim-hitler.html

Nobody doubts it authenticity...

But I doubt it contents. How many tanks does Hitler claim his army had destroyed?

He does not talk about Soviet troops amassing near the border (nor denies it), yet he says:

Why bring it up. History is about relevance. By your own addmission this interview carries no relevance to the point up for debate

this does not sound like Djenghis Kahn 2.0 conquering Russia just for the heck of it, now does it?... "there was no other possibility"

So then do I take it you consider Hitler the worst military leader in history? Even a lowly corporal knows that unless an invading force can achieve a 3:1 ratio they will be defeated by a prepared enemy

There you have it, straight from the horses mouth. Hitler expected a possible war in the West against those who could not tolerate the existence of a large German state in the first place. Hitler wanted to reverse Versailles, remember? And who had imposed Versailles on Germany? Right, the western powers. Who was he dealing with all the time? Right, British and French politicians.

We have nothing except Hitler expected war with the West, given this discussion point is about pre-emptive Soviet actions in the East, it has no relevence

Is there still anybody why wants to defend the ludicrous idea of a planned German attack on the USSR on the basis of this A1-quality of evidence?

No one is debating a pre-emptive strike by German forces, we are asking you for evidence for plans of a Soviet pre-emptive strike

 

[Hans]

Is there still anybody why wants to defend the ludicrous idea of a planned German attack on the USSR on the basis of this A1-quality of evidence?

You don't have any evidence

What did Hitler order planned on July 21 1940?

 

[9/11-investigator]

But I doubt it contents. How many tanks does Hitler claim his army had destroyed?

Why bring it up. History is about relevance. By your own addmission this interview carries no relevance to the point up for debate

So then do I take it you consider Hitler the worst military leader in history? Even a lowly corporal knows that unless an invading force can achieve a 3:1 ratio they will be defeated by a prepared enemy

We have nothing except Hitler expected war with the West, given this discussion point is about pre-emptive Soviet actions in the East, it has no relevence

No one is debating a pre-emptive strike by German forces, we are asking you for evidence for plans of a Soviet pre-emptive strike

Once again, this time slowly...

My position: Hitler was forced to attack the USSR preemptively, because Stalin was preparing for war against Germany, seizing the opportunity since Germany was tied in a war with Britain.

Your position: Hitler attacked the USSR merely for territorial gain.

Your position is untenable in the light of the statements made by Hitler in Finland, recorded clandestinely.

Now do not loose yourself in obfuscating side issues whether how many tanks you doubt Hitler destroyed or if Hitler is a good or bad military leader.

Ok?

So, now that your position has been thoroughly debunked, what are you going to do in order to find a new interpretation for what really happened in 1941? You could of course adopt my position but that is a psychological too big a hurden. I understand that. I wish you success anyway while you maneuver yourself in yet another hopeless intellectual position.

 

[Hans]

Once again, this time slowly...

My position: Hitler was forced to attack the USSR preemptively, because Stalin was preparing for war against Germany, seizing the opportunity since Germany was tied in a war with Britain.

Your position: Hitler attacked the USSR merely for territorial gain.

Your position is untenable in the light of the statements made by Hitler in Finland, recorded clandestinely.

Now do not loose yourself in obfuscating side issues whether how many tanks you doubt Hitler destroyed or if Hitler is a good or bad military leader.

Ok?

So, now that your position has been thoroughly debunked, what are you going to do in order to find a new interpretation for what really happened in 1941? You could of course adopt my position but that is a psychological too big a hurden. I understand that. I wish you success anyway while you maneuver yourself in yet another hopeless intellectual position.

Hey 9/11 how come you haven't provided quotes from the Barbarossa plan itself it covers the status of the Soviet troops - who were in the defense and not in assembly areas for assault

How do you explain that? Why wasn't the Soviet army able to respond to the attack with a counter-attack?

Do you have any actual knowledge of the plan - on either side?

What you don't!

That's a surprize, LOL

 

[MG1962]

Once again, this time slowly...

My position: Hitler was forced to attack the USSR preemptively, because Stalin was preparing for war against Germany, seizing on the opportunity since Germany was tied in a war with Britain.

It matters nought how slow you say things - evidence is the final arbitor

Your position

: Hitler attacked the USSR merely for territorial gain.

Your position is untenable in the light of the statements made by Hitler in Finland, recorded clandestinely.

Sorry you need to read Mein Kampf - He mentions his need to attack the Soviets in Chapter 13 (IIRC)

Now do not loose yourself in obfuscating side issues whether how many tanks you doubt Hitler destroyed or if Hitler is a good or bad military leader.

Sorry if you want to try and introduce the Finnish recording you cant pick or choose. I make no claim of how many tanks Hitler destroyed. he did state a number, in his own voice recorded for history.

So, now that your position has been thoroughly debunked,

One thing you definately share with Hitler - lack of understanding. He thought he'd beaten Britian in Dec 1940 - History shows another outcome

what are you going to do in order to find a new interpretation for what really happened in 1941?

When you show something that suggests a new interpretation should be considered, I definately will

You could of course adopt my position but that is a psychological too big a hurden. I understand that. I wish you success anyway.

I have no emotional attraction to any of the combatants of WW2 - History is history - If someone suddenly discovers "My secret plan to invade Germany" J Stalin, I would read it with great interest and change my thinking to "Stalin was the worst military leader of the modern era, not Hitler.

 

[MG1962]

911 for you to sell your story. I need to see things like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Khalkhin_Gol_Soviet_map_of_battle_1939.jpg

 

[VonKleist]

Where is the Soviet Staff study? What were the objectives. Oddly knowing of this has been found in the archieves - nor commented on by Soviet or Russian planners. American historians who have access to the Soviet records find no record of it either....why is that I wonder?

I believe Rezun/'Suvorov's invasion plan is based on a document of May 1941 which included a reference to 2 proposed counter-offensives, one towards Cracow and one towards Lublin. The nature of this document is apparently explored in W.Spahr's book on Zhukov.

Incidentally, Rezun's 'Icebreaker' is available to read online though it may well be infringing copyright so I'm wary of posting a link. If you do find it, and if you know anything about Soviet armour, don't read chapter 3 it will make you cry.
But I do recommend doing a ctrl+F for 'Schickelgruber'. . . .

 

[Hans]

911 for you to sell your story. I need to see things like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Khalkhin_Gol_Soviet_map_of_battle_1939.jpg

Really MG1962 asking 9/11 for evidence? That's like asking a box of fluffy ducks if they can spell detergent.

 

[Hans]

I believe Rezun/'Suvorov's invasion plan is based on a document of May 1941 which included a reference to 2 proposed counter-offensives, one towards Cracow and one towards Lublin.

So you figure they misrepresented the concept of counter-attacks as proof of an attack?

 

[9/11-investigator]

I believe Rezun/'Suvorov's invasion plan is based on a document of May 1941 which included a reference to 2 proposed counter-offensives, one towards Cracow and one towards Lublin. The nature of this document is apparently explored in W.Spahr's book on Zhukov.

Incidentally, Rezun's 'Icebreaker' is available to read online though it may well be infringing copyright so I'm wary of posting a link. If you do find it, and if you know anything about Soviet armour, don't read chapter 3 it will make you cry.
But I do recommend doing a ctrl+F for 'Schickelgruber'. . . .

Forget about 'Icebreaker' from 1990 (for $750,- !).
Read the 2007 evolution from that book:

Chief Culprit