Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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The PMFers and TrueJustice are two of those groups. It took me a few posts to get booted from the PMF. I never even got to post on TrueJustice. Has anyone here been a member of Truejustice?


I was a member of true justice about last March,I got about four posts printed,after that they invited me to leave.

Now and again I type up a post when I hit the submit button I get told I am not allowed to post

Anybody know what the background story is for truejustice.org?
Was Truejustice.org started by the Kertcher family or their lawyers?
Was Truejustice.org started by an agency of the Italian government?
 
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Fine,

I strongly question whether either Amanda or Raffaele has used the word amnesia to describe their state of mind. I agree that their accounts of that evening were not perfectly consistent, and I suspect that the use of cannabis had something to do with this. However, their interrogations would be expected to produce a great deal of confusion if they are innocent and yet they kept being told that they were not remembering things correctly, etc.

The luminol prints were probably not made in Meredith's blood for reasons already discussed. How, specifically, do you tie them to the crime? How do you answer the criticisms of the knife and bra clasp as put forth in the Johnson/Hampikian open letter?

_____________________________________

Halides,

In my opinion that Open Letter is full of vague truisms about "possibilities" with no mention of the frequencies which would contribute substance to their statements. Just a couple cheerleaders waving their tissue pom-poms. Let's look at the resounding conclusion they draw:

_______________________________________________
"Summary:
DNA testing results described above could have been obtained even if no crime had occurred. As such, they do not constitute credible evidence that links Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to the murder of Meredith Kercher."

_______________________________________________


The first sentence would be true of most any DNA testing results, given the possibility of lab contamination and "innocent" transfer. And it's true of virtually all evidence. (Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle could have been found in the Texas Book Depository even if no crime had been committed.) So it's just a vague truism. So how can they conclude ---as such---from this that the results don't constitute credible evidence against the lovebirds? They can't draw any such conclusion. (Finding Oswald's rifle there wasn't credible evidence?) It's a textbook fallacy that---if followed--- would make most DNA results useless in most criminal cases.

I hope the two experts appointed by the APPEALS Court can present a more persuasive document than the Johnson/Hampikian Open Letter. Otherwise the lovebirds ain't goin' nowhere.

Personally, if I were on the Judicial Panel ---"the jury"---in the APPEALS court, I'd be impressed if I were shown some video demonstrations of "innocent" transfer. Say, in the case of the bra clasp, a video of college kids sharing a joint---and therefore spit---which led to one of the smokers, a girl, later depositing a guy's DNA onto her bra as she removed it later. Or, in the case of the kitchen knife, a cop quickly removing his gloves from one location, going to another where he puts on another pair of gloves, and in doing so transfers DNA from the first pair of gloves to the second pair, and then onto a knife he handles. Nothing proves possibility better than actuality.

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That has been the essence of most of the discussions here. The Anti-guilters believe very emphatically that the argument from the authority of the Italian courts is the weakest of all arguments. Conversely, the guilters frequently seem to argue that authority is truth. As evidence slips from their grasp, they seem to be growing silent. However, the appeal ramps up soon...

I think there is a few things going on:

First, AK and RS have been more successfully politically than legally. And they are fairly optimistic about the appeal, so they tend to think they are close to the end. And if it stays in the legal realm, and the DNA evidence doesn't fall apart, I would tend to agree. Amanda's strategy has always been to conduct 2 defenses, and clearly they stand to benefit if they can move this case out of the legal and into the political realm. So if conversely your goal is to enhance or extend the suffering of Amanda Knox, then obviously you want her isolated as possible which means you want to argue that her case should be entirely handled by the judicial.

For example
TJMK said:
Mr. Girlanda should read some books on international relations instead of writing novels. He should also learn some basic concepts of the principle of the division of power. He will understand that the executive (and legislative) branch is completely independent from the judiciary and that politicians must not interfere in any judicial procedure, directly or indirectly.

Which is of course false on many grounds in particular no one argues for complete independence. And of course politicians need to interfere directly and indirectly in cases which are political. Meredith Kercher's home country just had a major dispute last quarter about a criminal case with political impact that the government deliberately undermined.

The second reason is an attack on the right to petition government for a redress of grievances which in a broad sense is what Amanda's parents are exercising. This is what the whole "groupies" or veneration of Meredith is really about. The elected branches act as a check on the abused of the judicial branches for good reasons. Iran is a good example of a society where the judicial branch is not subjected to reasonable checks on its power. In most western countries, there is no right to effective redress within the judicial branch. Which is basically another way of saying, that no one has the right to be anything but supportive of a justice system. The guilters seem to hold this position, though when I've brought up other cases for example Taliban trials they back off. So I'm not sure how sincerely they hold this position. But they do seem genuinely shocked that lots of the people on here freely complain about trials in their home countries that complaints about the Knox verdict aren't unique and aren't based in "xenophobia".

Third of course was until recently the guilters had better authorities. The FOA had a school principle and they had judges and prosecutors. Its moved up the political chain and I would argue a sitting US Senator trumps everyone else; so that's changed. But I'm not sure they would agree with my assessment (I think because they may not know enough American politics) and regardless I can see how the argument evolved. I imagine if Cantwell does attach a rider and get Amanda out, the antiauthority stuff will come up. You can see that with the attacks on Girlanda who clearly is acting directly in the interests of his station. Things like Seattle permanently deciding against Perugia park I think will enhance Girlanda's ability to make the case that Italy is likely to suffer negative international consequences for no apparent gain. Once that happens again I'd expect to see guilters to become much more specific about what authorities they support.
 
Before Saturday

Any predictions about what happens tomorrow in court with the DNA experts? Do we have testimony? Any shockers? Anyone want to gaze into the crystal ball?
 
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Any predictions about what happens tomorrow in court with the DNA experts? Do we have testimony? Any shockers? Anyone want to gaze into the crystal ball?

Given the glacial pace of what can laughingly be called the Italian 'justice' system, I doubt anything of significance will happen.

I just hope they can get Curatolo back on the stand before he keels over with a heroin overdose.
 
Anybody know what the background story is for truejustice.org?
Was Truejustice.org started by the Kertcher family or their lawyers?
Was Truejustice.org started by an agency of the Italian government?

None of the above. It was started by a real estate guy named Peter Quennell from New Jersey. He may be a jerk but he is not taking money AFAICT. His motivation seem political, a genuine disgust with the innocentisti and a kinda fascination with Meredith.
 
Any predictions about what happens tomorrow in court with the DNA experts? Do we have testimony? Any shockers? Anyone want to gaze into the crystal ball?

The defense is surely going to ask for the information on Curatolo's heroin case. There may be some motion or discussion about lack of discovery on this as well. The judge will probably decide on a deadline for the expert DNA report and move on to the Curatolo issue in the meantime.
 
I have a theory about the lamp cord, where and when it was plugged in that also has a bit of mystery to it. I would like to get everyone's opinions first based on these three pictures:

Rose,

In the middle photo there is an outlet on the wall by the door. It could have been plugged in there. There is also a bunch connected together on the floor.
 
Rose,

In the middle photo there is an outlet on the wall by the door. It could have been plugged in there. There is also a bunch connected together on the floor.

The plugs on the floor in photo 3 are UK plugs which don't fit into Italian wall sockets without an adapter. I don't know if Americans are aware that the UK has different electrical plugs and sockets. I don't know if this is of any significance, almost certainly not.
 
Charlie, have you seen the wounds on her hands? The Massei report is somewhat vague in regards to them, and I'm curious to know if they were on the back or front side and if they were actually cuts. The report implies that they were not "stabs" but rather light pricks - not causing blood loss.

Yes, I have the photos and the pathologist's report. There were two cuts on her right hand - one on her thumb and one on her palm. There was one cut on her left hand, on her forefinger. They were minor wounds, but sufficient to cause some bleeding.
 
Plug ins / adapters

The plugs on the floor in photo 3 are UK plugs which don't fit into Italian wall sockets without an adapter. I don't know if Americans are aware that the UK has different electrical plugs and sockets. I don't know if this is of any significance, almost certainly not.


Withnail,

It looks like the computer and whatever is on the wall shelf are attached to adapters as you said. Did the lamp need an adapter though? It was probably an Italian lamp.


 

Ron Hendry is quite sure it was torn rather than cut, and he convinced me. He showed me a bra with similar construction. The fabric to which the clasp is attached is a separate, stitched-on piece that also attaches to the shoulder strap.
 
Ron Hendry believes the floor was wiped in several spots as I posted earlier. Perhaps it was to obscure what would possibly have been recognizable shoe or foot prints. Couple this with the luminol prints and how they were sporadic and the theory has legs. Even if the luminol prints were unrelated to the murder, why are they sporadic and not continuous as Amanda for instance, left the shower one day and walked back to her room with rusty water on her feet? Why are Raffaele's there?

The problem with the highlighted portion is this. There was no evidence of Knox or Sollecito leaving shoe or footprints when leaving the room. When you look at the smear mark which could have just as easily happened naturally, there is no clean up towards the door. There is just the smear marks at the far end of the room. Rudy's bloody shoeprints heading towards the door and blood on the door handle proves that there was no clean up leading away from the body. So if there was an attempt to clean up a spot, I personally dont think it was shoe prints that were being cleaned. I would guess it was the killers bloody handprint on the floor.
 
lamp plugin

I believe Italy runs 220v and the lamp appeared to already be setup for that.


I agree Chris. The lamp's plug looks the same as on the adapters with two prongs. Rose I would say the lamp was plugged into the wall.


 
Perhaps I misunderstood then. You're saying you think she was concussed and thus 'stunned' momentarily, perhaps causing collapse? That can happen easily with the brain bouncing around in all that cerebrospinal gunk, and would obviously have made her more malleable, thus explaining the lack of defensive wounds.

When describing Meredith's bruises and cuts as a lack of defensive wounds is really a matter of opinion. As an example, wounds that could be considered defensive or not.

Bruises on forearms and elbows. Could have happened as a result of a fall to floor. Could also have happened as a result of attempting to block blows thrown by the assailant. Any bruising or cuts on arms or hands can in some form be considered defensive wounds. It just depends on a persons theory on how they were received.

Cuts on Meredith's face. Could have happened by getting punched. Could also have happened during a struggled with the attacker causing her face to get cut.

Here is A definition of defensive wounds:

Defensive wounds are any type of injuries that result from an attempt, or repeated attempts, to defend against an assailant using such sharp edged weapons as knives or blunted instruments such as fists and clubs.

So when considering what injuries are considered defensive or not. You first have to determine when the victim quit defending oneself. Even the 2 puncture wounds in her neck could be considered defensive if she was still fighting. What someone declares as hesitation on 1 of the puncture wounds could just as easily be declared as a partial block thus resulting in the knife not being fully thrust in the neck.
 
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Re-reading Frank's blog from the beginning, I came across the following explanation for Meredith's room being in such a disaster. The ordinary police tossed, oops, searched Meredith's room 3 times after the initial scientifica police took their samples but before the Dec. 18th return to the cottage to pick up the bra clasp and other items.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/10/raffaele-was-watching-cartoons.html

"If all this is true it would become even useless to try to explain the DNA on the bra. But they insisted with the contamination. It's not the police's fault, according to Bongiorno. It's just that the piece wasn't found at the first inspection made by scientific police. After the scientifica the ordinary police went three times into the room to do searches and they didn't respect the same protocols because they are not scientifica and because it wasn't necessary anymore since all findings were already taken. But the scientifica had lost that little bra clasp and when it was found, on December 18, it was already contaminated, and in some way Raffaele's DNA went on it, as well as the DNA of (now) 4 other people. In conclusion, that evidence can't be used against Raffaele."
 
Re-reading Frank's blog from the beginning, I came across the following explanation for Meredith's room being in such a disaster. The ordinary police tossed, oops, searched Meredith's room 3 times after the initial scientifica police took their samples but before the Dec. 18th return to the cottage to pick up the bra clasp and other items.

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/10/raffaele-was-watching-cartoons.html

"If all this is true it would become even useless to try to explain the DNA on the bra. But they insisted with the contamination. It's not the police's fault, according to Bongiorno. It's just that the piece wasn't found at the first inspection made by scientific police. After the scientifica the ordinary police went three times into the room to do searches and they didn't respect the same protocols because they are not scientifica and because it wasn't necessary anymore since all findings were already taken. But the scientifica had lost that little bra clasp and when it was found, on December 18, it was already contaminated, and in some way Raffaele's DNA went on it, as well as the DNA of (now) 4 other people. In conclusion, that evidence can't be used against Raffaele."

I wish there were proof for these undocumented entries. The Nov 14th photo comes the closest to that. The Massei report says it was sealed until Dec 18th. That is obviously not true because of the way the cottage was trashed by Dec 18th.

Bongiorno said it wasn't the police's fault?? Why would she say this? Was she perhaps trying to avoid a slander charge?

It's crazy to say they 'lost' the bra clasp and that is why it wasn't collected. Did they also 'lose' the blue jacket, shoes, both socks, brown leather purse, tote bag and rock? Is that because these items were also so 'little'. It was negligently not collected until Dec 18th - that is the fact.
 
Given the glacial pace of what can laughingly be called the Italian 'justice' system, I doubt anything of significance will happen.

I just hope they can get Curatolo back on the stand before he keels over with a heroin overdose.

Tomorrow judge Hellmann will set the terms of reference for the DNA review,he will be expected to limit the review by his colleagues to prevent the possibility of the DNA experts been able to tell the world what a corrupt bunch of idiots the Perugian judiciary are,these judges are after all used to lawyers telling them what gods gift to humanity they are,they have been told this by defence lawyers and prosecutors so often that some of them might even believe it.The last thing they want the world to find out is how easy a fat bald little criminal and a few liars made fools out of them.Who knows what Hellmann is thinking,one thing he must know,is that more films are going to be made about this case and he has the chance to be portrayed as a hero in maybe the ultimate film on this case,to do that he needs to bring this case to a decisive result one way or another

As regards Curatolo there are definitely top police officers in Perugia who don't want the world to know how a homeless heroine addict gave false testimony at not just one but probably three murder trials,the dealing charges that have just been initiated against him,are I suspect just one part of a very sinister plot to somehow remove him out of the picture.I expect the men who framed Amanda and Raffaele to one way or another find a way to prevent Curatolo been interviewed by big American news corporations or taking the stand
"people who live rough usually die young"
 
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