The closer abortion gets to being illegal

[INRM]

Look, I understand an abortion in the first trimester; I think any abortion after that should be verboten unless it's necessary to save the mother's life.

If the baby can be delivered, abortion should be off the table and if the baby comes out alive I believe it's unconscionable to kill him/her. We're not talking about a fetus anymore; we're talking about a baby.

 

[Mycroft]

the more dangerous it gets for poor women.

DA: Pa. abortion doc killed 7 babies with scissors

Now you would think this was about a real doctor trying to do the right thing for desperate women like Dr Tiller was doing. But you'd be wrong.

It seems that the issue here is under-regulation, not over-regulation.

From the article:

"The inspections stopped completely in 1993 because of what prosecutors said was the pro-abortion rights attitude that set in after Democratic Gov. Robert Casey, an abortion foe, left office."

Given how over-the-top some of these descriptions are, I wonder if these "horrors" are not exaggerated by some anti-abortion prosecutor.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

 

[bookitty]

It seems that the issue here is under-regulation, not over-regulation.

From the article:

"The inspections stopped completely in 1993 because of what prosecutors said was the pro-abortion rights attitude that set in after Democratic Gov. Robert Casey, an abortion foe, left office."

Given how over-the-top some of these descriptions are, I wonder if these "horrors" are not exaggerated by some anti-abortion prosecutor.

Probably a little of both. The women were in a position that left them open to exploitation. This would allow the doctor to cut corners, like hiring untrained staff or slacking off on cleanliness. However, everything he did wrong would be easy to exaggerate. For example, it's a medical office, there very well could have been body parts, but they might have been out of sight for most people who came to his clinic.

In general it sounds a lot like the stories of clinics that operated before abortion became legal.

 

[Darat]

This sort of thing could be largely avoided, and we wouldn't even have to have an abortion debate in this country, if there were simply effective sex-ed and cheap, effective birth control for all.


...snip...

We pretty much have that over here yet we still have a lot of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies.

 

[Mycroft]

Probably a little of both. The women were in a position that left them open to exploitation. This would allow the doctor to cut corners, like hiring untrained staff or slacking off on cleanliness. However, everything he did wrong would be easy to exaggerate. For example, it's a medical office, there very well could have been body parts, but they might have been out of sight for most people who came to his clinic.

In general it sounds a lot like the stories of clinics that operated before abortion became legal.

Either way it's fine propaganda for the anti-abortion side.

 

[bookitty]

Either way it's fine propaganda for the anti-abortion side.

I don't know. One of the anti-choice talking points is that there would be less abortions if it was illegal. Since women were willing to go to a "house of horrors" for the procedure, it undercuts that argument. As well as the claim that women are casual about abortion.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It seems that the issue here is under-regulation, not over-regulation.

From the article:

"The inspections stopped completely in 1993 because of what prosecutors said was the pro-abortion rights attitude that set in after Democratic Gov. Robert Casey, an abortion foe, left office."

Given how over-the-top some of these descriptions are, I wonder if these "horrors" are not exaggerated by some anti-abortion prosecutor.

You cherry picked.

State regulators ignored complaints about Gosnell and the 46 lawsuits filed against him, and made just five annual inspections, most satisfactory, since the clinic opened in 1979, authorities said. The inspections stopped completely in 1993 because of what prosecutors said was the pro-abortion rights attitude that set in after Democratic Gov. Robert Casey, an abortion foe, left office.

So there was a pro-life Governor before 1993.

There's a lot of blame being thrown around that pro-abortion rights (which is a lie, people are pro-choice, not pro-abortion, or they support abortion rights, not 'pro-abortion' rights) had something to do with this. But when you read further, you see that's more likely than not a bunch of negligent health department personnel making excuses for their negligence.

Williams accused state Health Department officials of "utter disregard" for the safety of women undergoing abortion, and said the testimony of agency officials "enraged" the grand jury. But he said he could find no criminal offenses with which they could be charged, in part because too much time has elapsed.
"These officials were far more protective of themselves when they testified before the grand jury. Even (Health Department) lawyers, including the chief counsel, brought private attorneys with them — presumably at government expense," the report said.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

A sidenote: if these allegations are all true, it is utterly jawdropping that this man was investigated 5 times since 1972 (although one article says that his business used to be legitimate and respectable and has only been declining in recent years so there is that.) Five times since Nixon was President. Five times.

A superintendent in New York in a building of 70 or so people gets inspected several times a year- and by several different government agencies and on various different types of inspections.

As for the state letting this man practice even though he had forty six lawsuits against him- if a superintendent had one against him, he'd be out on his butt.

He would be out on his butt before the lawsuit even got to court.

LONG before.

And I don't mean a wrongful death suit (something this man was served with on at least one occasion and yet he was allowed to practice medicine). I mean a "I sprained my ankle because you didn't shovel the snow well enough" lawsuit.

 

[AvalonXQ]

The term "coat hanger abortion" has come up more than once in this thread.
I've been reading arguments that there is not one actual documented case of a coat hanger being used as an abortion implement and that the "coat hanger abortion" is actually an urban legend.
I was wondering if anyone who uses the "coat hanger abortion" argument could actually provide evidence documenting the use of a coat hanger as a self-administered or impromptu abortion implement?

 

[bookitty]

The term "coat hanger abortion" has come up more than once in this thread.
I've been reading arguments that there is not one actual documented case of a coat hanger being used as an abortion implement and that the "coat hanger abortion" is actually an urban legend.
I was wondering if anyone who uses the "coat hanger abortion" argument could actually provide evidence documenting the use of a coat hanger as a self-administered or impromptu abortion implement?

Back alley abortions use a long thin sharp object to go through the cervix, into the uterus to tear the amniotic sac. A straightened coat hanger would work for this purpose and may have been used. I don't know how it was adopted as the symbol of unsafe abortion procedures or whether it was a preferred tool.

Where have you been reading these arguments?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

We pretty much have that over here yet we still have a lot of unplanned and unwanted pregnancies.

Causes of unplanned pregnancies are not simple.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Back alley abortions use a long thin sharp object to go through the cervix, into the uterus to tear the amniotic sac. A straightened coat hanger would work for this purpose and may have been used.

So there's no actual evidence that a straightened coat hanger actually has been used, just that it would fill the need of a known (and documented) procedure?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The term "coat hanger abortion" has come up more than once in this thread.
I've been reading arguments that there is not one actual documented case of a coat hanger being used as an abortion implement and that the "coat hanger abortion" is actually an urban legend.
I was wondering if anyone who uses the "coat hanger abortion" argument could actually provide evidence documenting the use of a coat hanger as a self-administered or impromptu abortion implement?

Before your time, maybe?

Repairing the Damage, Before Roe; Essay by WALDO L. FIELDING, M.D.

The familiar symbol of illegal abortion is the infamous “coat hanger” — which may be the symbol, but is in no way a myth. In my years in New York, several women arrived with a hanger still in place. Whoever put it in — perhaps the patient herself — found it trapped in the cervix and could not remove it.

 

[bookitty]

So there's no actual evidence that a straightened coat hanger actually has been used, just that it would fill the need of a known (and documented) procedure?

Yes, there is evidence that a straighten coat hanger was used in some cases, as were knitting needles.

But why this pedantry?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Well, Dr. Fielding's story is an account of something that happened years and years ago, so it's possible that he's convinced himself of those earlier accounts (as people are known to do in many contexts). I know that if Fielding was describing an unrecorded psychic encounter he remembers from years ago his testimony wouldn't be convincing.
... but, spirit of skepticism aside, that article is good enough for me.

 

[bookitty]

Well, Dr. Fielding's story is an account of something that happened years and years ago, so it's possible that he's convinced himself of those earlier accounts (as people are known to do in many contexts). I know that if Fielding was describing an unrecorded psychic encounter he remembers from years ago his testimony wouldn't be convincing.
... but, spirit of skepticism aside, that article is good enough for me.

So what were you trying to prove?

 

[AvalonXQ]

But why this pedantry?

The "coat hanger" imagery is actively pushed to forward the legalized-abortion position. I'm interested to know how accurate the imagery is.

 

[bookitty]

The "coat hanger" imagery is actively pushed to forward the legalized-abortion position. I'm interested to know how accurate the imagery is.

The coat hanger is used to symbolize how dangerous an illegal and unprofessional abortion can be. Even if a coat hanger were only used in 1% of back-alley abortions, the other implements would have been similar and the risk of infection and death would have been the same.

 

[ponderingturtle]

So there's no actual evidence that a straightened coat hanger actually has been used, just that it would fill the need of a known (and documented) procedure?

Are you aware that icepicks were never used in icepick lobotomies either?