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Chaos Magic

……people are unreliable, can’t be trusted, need evidence, question assumptions, discount first-hand experiences…etc. etc.

…how’s this for a claim:

I love my wife.

….let’s see, gotta be at least a couple of billion people who are married. We can’t trust first-hand experiences and not a single one of them could actually prove they love each other. Ergo: the world is overrun by fools.

Y'know Pixy, I understand your points, but there are bigger points.
 
Just thought I'd point asomething out here.

If one knows what they don't know (i.e.-they are aware of their ignorance), then, by simple elimination, they also know what they do know.

All your quotes come down to saying "I know what I know and I don't know what I don't know".

Not exactly as mind-blowing as they appear at first glance, eh?

And here, since you asked before, you're suggsting, implicitly, that you know more than, well, all the experts that study in the field of psychology, psychiatry, and neurology (since you seem to know what they don't).

But please, continue to sort fortune cookies for more nuggets of wisdom to enlighten the masses.

Actually Hellbound, I don’t think Socrates quote means that, I think it is a comment on the nature of knowledge and the nature of being itself. A rather fundamental reality. There is, I think, a point where self-identity is simply revealed as lacking something fundamental. The rational understanding upon which identity is founded is flawed (what is the meaning of ‘is’). It would seem possible to intuit that awareness in some way without actually proceeding beyond it (which would involve a complete redefinition of identity). Socrates likely had abilities beyond what most of us posses. That is my interpretation of the statement.

….and if I gave the impression of omnipotence I certainly apologize (I’m sure I must have corrected that before). I only attempt to find the right shoulders to perch upon.
 
Actually Hellbound, I don’t think Socrates quote means that, I think it is a comment on the nature of knowledge and the nature of being itself. A rather fundamental reality. There is, I think, a point where self-identity is simply revealed as lacking something fundamental. The rational understanding upon which identity is founded is flawed (what is the meaning of ‘is’). It would seem possible to intuit that awareness in some way without actually proceeding beyond it (which would involve a complete redefinition of identity). Socrates likely had abilities beyond what most of us posses. That is my interpretation of the statement.

….and if I gave the impression of omnipotence I certainly apologize (I’m sure I must have corrected that before). I only attempt to find the right shoulders to perch upon.

You're lacking something personally and find that lack filled by god?
 
Really tsig, and you know this how? Where have I ever mentioned that I even believe in this thing you refer to as 'god'? Never, as far as I know. My understanding of what I believe is not something I share here. Do you have any idea what you even mean by the word 'god'? Why don't you give it a try there tsig. After 12,000 posts at this place one would think you might actually have some idea what you're talking about (although reading your posts that might not be immediately apparent). Be a good little atheist and define 'god' for us. While you're at it, take a stab at that other word I mentioned....'is'. How are they related, or are they even?
 
……people are unreliable, can’t be trusted, need evidence, question assumptions, discount first-hand experiences…etc. etc.

…how’s this for a claim:

I love my wife.

….let’s see, gotta be at least a couple of billion people who are married. We can’t trust first-hand experiences and not a single one of them could actually prove they love each other. Ergo: the world is overrun by fools.

Y'know Pixy, I understand your points, but there are bigger points.

And you misunderstand, completely, the point that others make.

Firs,t define what you mean by "love" (because the word means different things to different people, and generally covers a range of emotions and behaviors), and we can test for it. And we can prove it to the same extent as science proves anything...provisionally, based on likely possibilities and the available evidence, and relying on the shared subjective nature of experience to identify the common elements that reflect objective reality.

Science doesn't say "first-hand experience is worthless" or that the subjective is necessarily wrong. But that first-hand experiences, singly and unconfirmed, are wrong. The process of science is, basically, just the extension and codification of leaning over to you buddy and asking "Did you see that, too?"

First-hand experiences are what science is based on, as AkuManiMani pointed out...but not individual first-hand experiences. We have definitive evidence that people are often wrong. We also have evidence that when large groups of people report on the same event, and when the event can be repeated and reported on by other groups, and the answers match up between them, it's likely to be true. And that's the major difference.

Any study with N=1 is unreliable. Any research that can't be replicated is unreliable. Any observation that can't be made by others trying to reproduce the research is unreliable.

And that's why much of this is excluded. Not because it's wrong (although evidence certainly suggests that in the case of spirits, psychic powers, and similar), but because there's no way to determine if it's right. And at the basic level, when one drills down into it, anythign that cannot cause a detectible effect cannot, in any meaningful fashion, be said to exist.
 
I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius
The small part of ignorance that we arrange and classify we give the name of knowledge.
Ambrose Bierce
To know anything well involves a profound sensation of ignorance.
John Ruskin
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.
Thomas Sowell
I know nothing, except the fact of my ignorance.
Diogenes
Sixty years ago I knew everything; now I know nothing; education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.
Will Durant
Nice quotes. They kind of sum up the sceptic & scientific approach. In order to learn, you need to be as sure as you can be of what you do know and as aware as you can be of your ignorance and the ease with which you can fool yourself and be fooled. That is why scepticism and critical thinking is important, why evidence is required, why the scientific method has been developed. The results speak for themselves.
 
Nice quotes. They kind of sum up the sceptic & scientific approach. In order to learn, you need to be as sure as you can be of what you do know and as aware as you can be of your ignorance and the ease with which you can fool yourself and be fooled. That is why scepticism and critical thinking is important, why evidence is required, why the scientific method has been developed. The results speak for themselves.

And you know, this is the other side of my earlier quip.

Taking these quotes at their meaning (rather than a literal interpretation) is the idea behind science and scientific method. "Know what you don't know". Science learns to accept the answer "I don't know" and takes it on to the next step of "but let's see if we can find out". Most of the paranormal, in contrast, comes to the step "I don't know" and immediately jumps to "so it's aliens/psychics/ghosts/spirits/god/bigfoot/<insert favorite woo here>".

And while we don't fullyunderstand consciousness yet, we do know a lot about it, and how the brain works, and we can most definately set certain limits on the capabilities, based on knowledge we currently have. Just because we don't understand everythign, does NOT mean we understand nothing. I can confidently claim that a 2010 Dodge Charger can't fly under it's own power, even though I don't fully understand the car. It's asinine to claim I can't make this statement without being able to draw up the blueprints for manufacturing one.

Could there be more to it? Sure. There could also be invisible, intangible, undetectable dragons in everyone's garage.
 
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Actually Hellbound, I don’t think Socrates quote means that, I think it is a comment on the nature of knowledge and the nature of being itself. A rather fundamental reality. There is, I think, a point where self-identity is simply revealed as lacking something fundamental. The rational understanding upon which identity is founded is flawed (what is the meaning of ‘is’). It would seem possible to intuit that awareness in some way without actually proceeding beyond it (which would involve a complete redefinition of identity). Socrates likely had abilities beyond what most of us posses. That is my interpretation of the statement.

….and if I gave the impression of omnipotence I certainly apologize (I’m sure I must have corrected that before). I only attempt to find the right shoulders to perch upon.

You're lacking something personally and find that lack filled by god?

Really tsig, and you know this how? Where have I ever mentioned that I even believe in this thing you refer to as 'god'? Never, as far as I know. My understanding of what I believe is not something I share here. Do you have any idea what you even mean by the word 'god'? Why don't you give it a try there tsig. After 12,000 posts at this place one would think you might actually have some idea what you're talking about (although reading your posts that might not be immediately apparent). Be a good little atheist and define 'god' for us. While you're at it, take a stab at that other word I mentioned....'is'. How are they related, or are they even?

In the first post you say "self-identity is simply revealed as lacking something fundamental" so that's how I knew you felt something was lacking.

If you don't mean god then what do you mean by "something fundamental"?
 
Really tsig, and you know this how? Where have I ever mentioned that I even believe in this thing you refer to as 'god'? Never, as far as I know. My understanding of what I believe is not something I share here. Do you have any idea what you even mean by the word 'god'? Why don't you give it a try there tsig. After 12,000 posts at this place one would think you might actually have some idea what you're talking about (although reading your posts that might not be immediately apparent). Be a good little atheist and define 'god' for us. While you're at it, take a stab at that other word I mentioned....'is'. How are they related, or are they even?

As soon as you use the right trigger words, or make statments suggestive of "woo-woo", certain individuals here automatically cast you in their minds as an amalgam of every -ism they oppose. For the most part, they aren't debating you so much as they're arguing with their own shadows.
 
And you misunderstand, completely, the point that others make.

Firs,t define what you mean by "love" (because the word means different things to different people, and generally covers a range of emotions and behaviors), and we can test for it. And we can prove it to the same extent as science proves anything...provisionally, based on likely possibilities and the available evidence, and relying on the shared subjective nature of experience to identify the common elements that reflect objective reality.

Science doesn't say "first-hand experience is worthless" or that the subjective is necessarily wrong. But that first-hand experiences, singly and unconfirmed, are wrong. The process of science is, basically, just the extension and codification of leaning over to you buddy and asking "Did you see that, too?"

First-hand experiences are what science is based on, as AkuManiMani pointed out...but not individual first-hand experiences. We have definitive evidence that people are often wrong. We also have evidence that when large groups of people report on the same event, and when the event can be repeated and reported on by other groups, and the answers match up between them, it's likely to be true. And that's the major difference.

Any study with N=1 is unreliable. Any research that can't be replicated is unreliable. Any observation that can't be made by others trying to reproduce the research is unreliable.

And that's why much of this is excluded. Not because it's wrong (although evidence certainly suggests that in the case of spirits, psychic powers, and similar), but because there's no way to determine if it's right. And at the basic level, when one drills down into it, anythign that cannot cause a detectible effect cannot, in any meaningful fashion, be said to exist.

“Define what you mean by love…”…yeah, I think that’s about as far as I need to go with that one. Perhaps you ought to go and read that entire talk by Mr. Attran.

You suggest I misunderstand your points, on the contrary, I understand them very well. The issue is that you don’t understand your own points. To illustrate I will ask one very simple question:

What explains human ignorance?

.....and guess what, I’m not actually talking about people not knowing the capitals of every state in the union, or all the elements of the periodic table etc.etc. I’m talking about human identity. Socrates went there with that quote I posted. Everybody (you included) inhabits this condition. It is indisputable evidence of something. What?

I nice simple science question. In one corner we have evidence (you need look no farther than you for the evidence [can you see it] or if it is not apparent there, it’s everywhere else and has been ever since people have been here). There’s lots and lots and lots and lots of direct and indirect arguments (evidence) that directly and indirectly implicate this very clear and indisputable fact. The condition of the life of every single person individually, and the current state of the world and it's entire history collectively is a result of this single condition. So there's lots of evidence.

…and in the other corner, we have the uber skeptic scientist types at JREF. The evidence is overwhelming and has been in for a long time. Human beings…me, you…everyone, are singularly defined by one word: ignorance (or was Socrates and idiot?). Why?....what are we ignorant of, and why are we ignorant of it?

You may think it’s irrelevant to all these discussions but it’s not. It’s fundamentally relevant.
 
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Really tsig, and you know this how? Where have I ever mentioned that I even believe in this thing you refer to as 'god'? Never, as far as I know. My understanding of what I believe is not something I share here. Do you have any idea what you even mean by the word 'god'? Why don't you give it a try there tsig. After 12,000 posts at this place one would think you might actually have some idea what you're talking about (although reading your posts that might not be immediately apparent). Be a good little atheist and define 'god' for us. While you're at it, take a stab at that other word I mentioned....'is'. How are they related, or are they even?

Gosh, that hardly reads as condescending or superior at all. No, wait, that's exactly how it reads.
 
Y'know Pixy, I understand your points, but there are bigger points.
No. No, you don't understand them, or you wouldn't have responded with something completely irrelevant; and no, there aren't bigger points, as demonstrated by the complete transformation of human life since people started applying these principles.
 
No. No, you don't understand them, or you wouldn't have responded with something completely irrelevant; and no, there aren't bigger points, as demonstrated by the complete transformation of human life since people started applying these principles.

Preach it brotha, Pixy -- preach it! Hallelujah! Science be praised!
 
As soon as you use the right trigger words, or make statments suggestive of "woo-woo", certain individuals here automatically cast you in their minds as an amalgam of every -ism they oppose. For the most part, they aren't debating you so much as they're arguing with their own shadows.
But change one word and it describes you:
As soon as you use the right trigger words, or make statments suggestive of skepticism, certain individuals here automatically cast you in their minds as an amalgam of every -ism they oppose. For the most part, they aren't debating you so much as they're arguing with their own shadows.​
See your comment above and your comment at the bottom of page 7 for example.
 
In the first post you say "self-identity is simply revealed as lacking something fundamental" so that's how I knew you felt something was lacking.

If you don't mean god then what do you mean by "something fundamental"?

What do I mean by something fundamental? You’re a skeptic tsig, be skeptical…go and look at the evidence. It’s all there. All you’ve got to do is make the effort. Maybe if you didn’t waste so much time posting nonsense at JREF you might have some time to actually take stock of the world you live in and ask a few fundamental questions about who you are. Just a suggestion.

Gosh, that hardly reads as condescending or superior at all. No, wait, that's exactly how it reads.

Could I possibly have meant it to sound like that? What do you think?

No. No, you don't understand them, or you wouldn't have responded with something completely irrelevant; and no, there aren't bigger points, as demonstrated by the complete transformation of human life since people started applying these principles.

Well I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree then Pixy.

…but while we’re on the subject of Pixy, why don’t you take a stab at my big big question. I know it kind of sounds like it might be one of those nonexistent bigger points, so let’s just take it right down to earth shall we.

Are you ignorant of anything? You can answer yes, or no. ‘Maybe’ would have to be a yes, since it is an implicit admission of ignorance.
 
The skeptical approach may be to live rationally (which may answer the question about why there is such an impetus to discount, recast, and reinterpret someone else’s account of their own firsthand experiences). The human approach is to realize that life is infinitely bigger than our understanding of it (thus we have Socrates famous admonishment) and trust yourself.
Life is certainly much bigger than our understanding of it.

But that does not mean that we have to take seriously any claim that goes beyond our understanding of life.

Especially not in cases where there are things already in our understanding of life that would explain them.
 
Preach it brotha, Pixy -- preach it! Hallelujah! Science be praised!
But science has been - by far, by orders of magnitude - the most successful epistemology in human history.

That is not to shout hallelujahs and praise science - that is simply to state a plain an inescapable fact.

(And one with which I think you probably agree).
 
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But change one word and it describes you:
As soon as you use the right trigger words, or make statments suggestive of skepticism, certain individuals here automatically cast you in their minds as an amalgam of every -ism they oppose. For the most part, they aren't debating you so much as they're arguing with their own shadows.​
See your comment above and your comment at the bottom of page 7 for example.

And how does the aforementioned description not fit posters like Pixy? There have been several participants in this thread who have demonstrated actual skepticism [I've already mentioned a few] and at least as many who have not. Like I said before, its not skepticism I'm objecting to -- its scientism posing as skepticism. I find it hard to believe that you've been following my posts closely enough to recall what I said several pages back yet you still don't know what my position is.
 
The irony of someone posting this on the internet sarcastically, and me reading it via WiFi, is pretty strong.

Dude, you've no idea what you're arguing against, do you? :rolleyes:


But science has been - by far, by orders of magnitude - the most successful epistemology in human history.

That is not to shout hallelujahs and praise science - that is simply to state a plain an inescapable fact.

(And one with which I think you probably agree).

Then you should be able to pick up on what it is I'm actually mocking.
 
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