The closer abortion gets to being illegal

[bookitty]

No different than if he killed them before they were born, except under a corrupt system of laws that reuses to protect or even acknowledge the lives of the most innocent and defenseless of all human beings.

All abortionists are murderers of the very worst sort. It is a deep shame on our society that they are not treated as the foul criminals that they truly are.

And the anti-choice see women as nothing more than baby-factories and seek to deny them even the most perfunctory control over their own lives.

See, I can play too!

 

[Skwinty]

My personal opinion is that a woman who decides to abort, regardless of where in the pregnancy she is, probably has a good reason to. I'd rather that be done than babies be born into a situation that isn't healthy for them.

Or a baby that isn't healthy for any situation.

 

[KingMerv00]

No different than if he killed them before they were born, except under a corrupt system of laws that reuses to protect or even acknowledge the lives of the most innocent and defenseless of all human beings.

All abortionists are murderers of the very worst sort. It is a deep shame on our society that they are not treated as the foul criminals that they truly are.

Here's your chance. Explain to me why we should protect a cluster of cells without a brain when we don't do the same for mentally developed animals like pigs.

I will not accept the phrase "because the cell is human" as an answer unless you explain to me why a strand of human DNA is more worthy of life than a strand of pig DNA.

 

[bookitty]

I think women, if they are going to have an abortion, should do it ASAP.
I'm not entirely comfortable with elective late-term abortions either. But I recognize that I can't foresee all possible extenuating circumstances, and I can't see an obvious red line to draw other than birth. Or possibly viability.
Also, I'm not into the idea of adopting someone else's kid who doesn't want it. Therefore, who am I to say they can't have an abortion.

I am for the maximum freedom of reproductive choice as long as it is humane, without appeals to religious dogma or any other woo.

The ASAP falls under "safe" in "safe, legal and rare." Right now, safe and immediate is not an option for all women. It just not that easy to get an abortion in rural areas or areas with restrictive laws.

Unfortunately, it's also not always easy to get birth control either. It is not covered under all insurance policies. 14 states have the incredibly misnamed "conscience" clauses which allow pharmacists to deny medication if it goes against their religion. If a woman lives in a town with one pharmacy run by a prude or if the the closest pharmacy that will serve her is miles away, there is a barrier to effective family planning.

 

[sadhatter]

Appears to be a doctor who maybe wasn't following best practices.



I hope everyone remembers to elevate the discussion!
And don't use the incident for political purposes!

Not following best practices? If this is legit the guy is a friggen Gwar character.

 

[sadhatter]

No different than if he killed them before they were born, except under a corrupt system of laws that reuses to protect or even acknowledge the lives of the most innocent and defenseless of all human beings.

All abortionists are murderers of the very worst sort. It is a deep shame on our society that they are not treated as the foul criminals that they truly are.

Eh bob, as a fellow member of the " has a penis " society, i feel that i have as much right to tell a woman what to do with her body as she does mine.

Does this not seem reasonable?

 

[WildCat]

I in 3 pregnancies ends in a natural abortion.

Jus' sayin'.

And 3 out of 3 births eventually end in death.

 

[NoCoPilot]

I in 3 pregnancies ends in a natural abortion.

Right -- so if full human rights are granted to every cytoblast then any woman who miscarries will be up for 3rd degree manslaughter.

 

[fuelair]

No different than if he killed them before they were born, except under a corrupt system of laws that reuses to protect or even acknowledge the lives of the most innocent and defenseless of all human beings.

All abortionists are murderers of the very worst sort. It is a deep shame on our society that they are not treated as the foul criminals that they truly are.

Opinion Bob. and like various body parts, everyone has them. I am pro-abortion - technically pro-choice since I do not believe a woman should be forced into one, but I don't hide behind choice either.

I agree that abortionists like the thing in this case are criminals and I would happily assist them in an educational termination. But, I consider real, professional physicians providing needed abortion services to any woman wanting one to be quiet heroes - based on the acts of so many foul cowards who are against abortion (their right, which I have no problem with) and act against it by causing harm to people on the good side (draws my attention in a way they won't like and I consider them actively evil). YMCV

 

[fuelair]

:d

and 3 out of 3 births eventually end in death.

:d:d:d

 

[KingMerv00]

Right -- so if full human rights are granted to every cytoblast then any woman who miscarries will be up for 3rd degree manslaughter.

Technically, that's not true. Manslaughter requires negligence at the very least. A miscarriage is not the result of negligence.


OK, maybe if you smoke and drink while pregnant.

 

[NoCoPilot]

Okay maybe 2nd or 1st degree then. And something like 90% of fertilized eggs never implant so any sexually active woman would be prosecutable.

 

[themusicteacher]

Obviously, this is the sort of thing that riles up anti-choicers but this not the norm and should not be. If abortion were safe and legal for all women (that includes underage minors), I guarantee there would be next to no cases of this sort of thing happening and it would, indeed, be rare.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

To the OP:

You seem to argue in your original post that this horrendous situation with this repulsive quack who criminally lied to and exploited poor, black and Asian women arose because abortion in Pennsylvania is "close to illegal".

What do you mean? Pennsylvania, like every state in America, HAS legal abortion. Not legal late term abortions, no, but they allow an abortion for up to 24 weeks.

Which is actually, if lionking is correct, the same as what Australia has (barring extenuating circumstances, such as that the fetus is deformed, which a quick Google search tells me is grounds for a late term abortion in Australia ).

Unless you have a theory or evidence that Pennsylvania's abortion limits lead to this disgusting excuse of a human being's criminal practices, please don't make such a blanket and unsupported statement. Not necessarily saying that you are wrong but if you say something like that, you have to support it.

If you do have an argument linking one to the other, by all means, let's hear it.

So, basically, what I mean is: "Evidence?"

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

To the OP:

You seem to argue in your original post that this horrendous situation with this repulsive quack who criminally lied to and exploited poor, black and Asian women arose because abortion in Pennsylvania is "close to illegal".

What do you mean? Pennsylvania, like every state in America, HAS legal abortion. Not legal late term abortions, no, but they allow an abortion for up to 24 weeks.

Which is actually, if lionking is correct, the same as what Australia has (barring extenuating circumstances, such as that the fetus is deformed, which a quick Google search tells me is grounds for a late term abortion in Australia ).

Unless you have a theory or evidence that Pennsylvania's abortion limits lead to this disgusting excuse of a human being's criminal practices, please don't make such a blanket and unsupported statement. Not necessarily saying that you are wrong but if you say something like that, you have to support it.

If you do have an argument linking one to the other, by all means, let's hear it.

So, basically, what I mean is: "Evidence?"

I posted what I meant. There are restrictions on teens getting abortions. We know from the evidence that this specific restriction of requiring parental notification results in teens seeking alternatives to abortion. We know it leads to teens putting off a decision as their pregnancies progress.

And legal or not, abortion foes blowing up legal abortion clinics and shooting abortion providers results in fewer and fewer clinics that provide abortions. If you have money, you can access a clinic at a distant location. If you are poor, you need a clinic nearby.


Impact of Parental Notification Laws on Abortion and Births in Multiple States

Jones RK, Boonstra H. Confidential reproductive health services for minors: the potential impact of mandated parental involvement for contraception. Perspect Sex Reprod Health. 2004 Sep-Oct;36(5):182-91. Review. PMID: 15519960 Link to Full Text

Levine PB. Parental involvement laws and fertility behavior. J Health Econ. 2003 Sep;22(5):861-78. PMID: 12946463 Link to Full Text

Joyce T; Kaestner R. The impact of mandatory waiting periods and parental consent laws on the timing of abortion and state of occurrence among adolescents in Mississippi and South Carolina. Journal of Policy Analysis and Management. 2001 Spring;20(2):263-82. Link to Full Text

Tomal, A. Parental involvement laws and minor and non-minor teen abortion and birth rates. Journal of Family and Economic Issues.1999 Summer; 20(2):149-162. Link to Full Text

Ellertson C. Mandatory parental involvement in minors' abortions: Effects of the laws in Minnesota, Missouri, and Indiana. Am J Public Health 87 (8): 1367-1374 Aug 1997 Link to Full Text

Cohen S. Parental involvement in minors' abortions remains highly salient issue. State Reprod Health Monit. 1997 Mar;8(1):2-3, 5. PMID: 12347837 Link to Abstract

Haas-Wilson, D. The impact of state abortion restrictions on minors' demand for abortions. Journal of Human Resources. 1996 Winter; 31(1):140-58. Link to Full Text

Haas-Wilson, D. The economic impact of state restrictions on abortion: parental consent and notification laws and Medicaid funding restrictions. Journal of Policy Analysis and Management. 1993 Summer; 12(3):498-511. Link to Abstract

Rodman, H. Should parental involvement be required for minors' abortions? Family Relations. 1991 April; 40(2):155-160. Link to Full Text

Blum RW, Resnick MD, Stark TA. The impact of a parental notification law on adolescent abortion decision-making. Am J Public Health. 1987 May;77(5):619-20. Erratum in: Am J Public Health 1987 Oct;77(10):1355. PMID: 3565660 Link to Full Text

The first few links I checked are dead so let me look at few of these up manually.

 

[KingMerv00]

Okay maybe 2nd or 1st degree then. And something like 90% of fertilized eggs never implant so any sexually active woman would be prosecutable.

No. You couldn't be tried at all.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I posted what I meant. There are restrictions on teens getting abortions. We know from the evidence that this specific restriction of requiring parental notification results in teens seeking alternatives to abortion. We know it leads to teens putting off a decision as their pregnancies progress.

And legal or not, abortion foes blowing up legal abortion clinics and shooting abortion providers results in fewer and fewer clinics that provide abortions. If you have money, you can access a clinic at a distant location. If you are poor, you need a clinic nearby.

Maybe- but those aren't the issues in the Kermit Gosnell case.

As a matter of fact, it isn't related to what he was doing, one way or the other.

He may have had teenage clients, in violation of Pennsylvania law, but that was only the tip of the iceberg.

 

[plumjam]

Here's your chance. Explain to me why we should protect a cluster of cells without a brain when we don't do the same for mentally developed animals like pigs.

I will not accept the phrase "because the cell is human" as an answer unless you explain to me why a strand of human DNA is more worthy of life than a strand of pig DNA.

Maybe- but those aren't the issues in the Kermit Gosnell case.

Merv, if Kermit's gonna get it in the neck, why should Miss Piggy be let off scot free?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Maybe- but those aren't the issues in the Kermit Gosnell case.

As a matter of fact, it isn't related to what he was doing, one way or the other.

He may have had teenage clients, in violation of Pennsylvania law, but that was only the tip of the iceberg.

What was he doing? He had a horrendous coat hanger operation. Who were his patients? While there might have been a couple blue collar women, going by the comment he had a cleaner room for some patients, the majority were poor.

So what do you believe was the reason poor women would seek out care in such an awful place if they had other options? And if it was due to limited alternatives, why would the women's options be limited?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

But if the babies were born alive and he had to kill them, he was performing very late term abortions. If a baby is viable in the womb, I don't see why seven inches or so makes a difference. I have serious problems with late term abortions.

All the more reason why I support legal infanticide up until the stinking, worthless brat is capable of "aborting" his parents before they "abort" him/her.

Just remember... 6.9 Billion and climbing. Every time someone squirts another resource-sucking brat out of the mommy-hole the "value of human life" the Christards babble about just keeps getting cheaper and cheaper.

Not that human life matters a damn to begin with.