Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Part of Amanda's problem may have been her attempt to speak in Italian. She may have projected the image of being illiterate because she wasn't - at that time - totally fluent in Italian. Bilingual people always tell me that the second language is never as good as the native language.

The miscalculation of Amanda's intelligence and litteracy - due to the fact she was not speaking in her native tongue - hopefully will come back to hang the people that got her in this trouble.

I was going to remark on this.

It's easy to find yourself perceiving someone as stupid when they are trying to speak to you in your own language with barely any knowledge of it, and I always remind myself of this when I find myself in that situation.

Recall that the operatives bugging AK and RS were heard referring to them as "the cretins", and worse (Raff would have been trying tor keep his Italian as basic as he could when he was talking to Amanda).

Basically, this was a reflection of the operatives' stupidity, not AK's and RS's
 
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Ah, the tea and cookies timeline, the one Monica Napoleoni--In fairness to them, that hasn't been updated in a long time, they abandoned the timeline idea completely. However, outside the first entry it seems to correspond better to everything else than the first story.

Hmmm... You seem to be hinting here of a much larger disagreement? What's your theory of the timeline or events?
 
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Here's another one, Rose. An Italian Forum, begun two days after Meredith's death. More information on Raffaele, and his family, than in English-language Forums:

Vivicentro/Translated

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That actually looks more like a running editorial of an online newspaper than a blog.
 
Is there any propaganda machine for the Italian government? Where is the effort to trash Amanda's reputation coming from? Is it coming entirely from the prosectution?

Or is it coming from people that believe that people have to be scared into good behaviour by the gods of government.

I don't believe the government of Italy is any happier with some of the actions of the Italian Courts than anyone else. Those courts regularly try to embarrass and harass elected officials all the way up to the top guy himself.

Mind you some of those politicians probably have that coming to a certain extent, Italy's politics can certainly be entertaining to behold, but then again the people of Italy can actually get rid of the politicians that fail to amuse them any longer, which is not an option with their judiciary.

In the last few years there's been a number of cases that make you wonder if they still have a firm grip on reality. They convicted of murder a man who was in a cooking class in Staffordshire (yes, the one in England) at the time, and some of the details of the case are interesting being as the onus seemed to be on him to prove his innocence being as he was a 'convicted murderer.'

They've also decided to help the government of Italy manage foreign affairs, convicting twenty three American and two Italian intelligence officers for an operation they didn't approve of, which some might think was the business of the elected officials of Italy to decide. Having decided the world was not enough, they've determined that their jurisdiction should now extend to the ether, thus they convicted Google executives in absentia as well.



It is especially interesting that the Italian courts believe that crimes committed against Italians even in foreign lands fall under their jurisdiction, regardless of what the government of Italy thinks:

The ambassador replied that under Italian law crimes committed against Italians outside Italy were under Rome's jurisdiction and that while for the Washington and Rome "the case is closed", there was little hope that the Italian government could stop a trial.

It may not be entirely a coincidence that Italian parliamentarian Rocco Ghirlanda, (who met with Amanda several times in prison and wrote a book about what a nice person she is and said that he thinks she is innocent) is a member of the same party their premier is, while Raffaele's lawyer is also a top elected official in the top opposing party.

The naughty part of me can't help but wonder just how this Italian judiciary might benefit from the example of a little reciprocity regarding the last thing I quoted. Considering the percentage of foreign born in their jails, were other nations to decide that perhaps the Italian Courts or police had behaved improperly regarding one of their own citizens...

;)
 
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<snip>I don't believe the government of Italy is any happier with some of the actions of the Italian Courts than anyone else. Those courts regularly try to embarrass and harass elected officials all the way up to the top guy himself.

In the last few years there's been a number of cases that make you wonder if they still have a firm grip on reality. They convicted of murder a man who was in a cooking class in Staffordshire (yes, the one in England) at the time, and some of the details of the case are interesting being as the onus seemed to be on him to prove his innocence being as he was a 'convicted murderer.'

They've also decided to help the government of Italy manage foreign affairs, convicting twenty three American and two Italian intelligence officers for an operation they didn't approve of, which some might think was the business of the elected officials of Italy to decide. Having decided the world was not enough, they've decided that their jurisdiction should now extend to the ether, thus they convicted Google executives in absentia as well.
;)
Interesting that the judge in two of these cases - CIA & Google is one and the same one Oscar Magi - I wonder what his views on Amereica as the "Evil Empire" are. Are he and Mignini buddies? Just sayin...:)
 
Hmmm... You seem to be hinting here of a much larger disagreement? What's your theory of the timeline or events?

It has been my primary interest in this case and I'm afraid to say I'm still working on it. :p

I think the times of the statements are a good place to start, and being as we know when they got there the skeleton is in place. In her testimony Amanda said something to the effect of her not waiting in the hall very long, like she was on the first page of her homework or something. Now an interesting question that occurred to me is what does the time on the Micheli report actually mean? I initially assumed that 10:40 meant that's when the statement was taken, but what you posted from Napoleoni suggested it was when it started.

There's a number of unanswered questions that I've been pondering that might give further hints as to how that night went:

What were they up to calling Raffaele in after 10 PM? A common answer has been that because of his schedule they deferred it until night, and then gave him time to go to the service for Meredith. However that doesn't make much sense to me. If they really suspected Raffaele of anything they wouldn't have cared what his bloody schedule was, nor whether he went to the service. Raffaele didn't know Meredith anyway.

If they didn't suspect him, why would they call him in at such an odd hour just to give a witness statement? That suggests to me they brought him in as part of a plan, like they had that CCTV tape they released soon after the arrests saying it was Amanda (turned out it was Meredith actually) and the phone records of Amanda and Patrick. Thinking there was a connection there due to the unfortunate Italian phrase Amanda used due to her nascent Italian, and that Patrick was 'lying' due to him coincidentally changing his sims card that day. Thus they bring in Raffaele either knowing Amanda will tag along, or like Giobbi insisted on the stand, it was definitely the plan to interrogate them together.

They tell Raffaele who (believe it or not!), went to the interrogation stoned on hash that they have 'hard evidence' of Amanda leaving that night, and Raffaele who was also stoned the night of the murder soon decides the police must be right and that's where his story 'changes.' I think this is the easiest admission one could get in an interrogation, and Raffaele probably had no idea of the consequences of what he was saying, he just assumes they're right and his memory is wrong.

Shortly thereafter they have little miss cartwheels cooling her heels in the backroom with Perugia's finest. It probably doesn't go too well, thus they call in the interpreter who gets there around 12:30 if I recall correctly off the top of my head. At this point they are probably frustrated and angry, thinking Amanda is lying and as they think they have 'proof' that Raffaele confirmed that she left that night, and with the text and a couple other suspicious things (the mop and perhaps the 'black hair' that never showed up in evidence) have managed to convince themselves she and Patrick are in on it together and she's protecting her.

Then the gloves come off and they put the screws to her, culminating in them whupping her upside the head and breaking, having had her 'flashes' thinking at this point her real memories must be wrong. What's she have left now? The police are telling her they have 'hard evidence,' they've told her Raffaele has said she left, and now she has cause to question her memory. That produces the 1:45 statement.

Mignini is called in, he sees what a worthless statement they've produced and they start in after her again, finishing up at 5:45 and finally letting poor Amanda go to the bathroom, and maybe even Napoleoni at this point takes her to the snack bar. The latter might be the only bit of truth to have been in her testimony as far as I can tell.

I'm still working on it though, there's inconsistencies and contradictions everywhere trying to put it together, and I'm not entirely sure to take Giobbi's word on whether Amanda was to be there, or Monica's and Amanda's herself, though the latter may never have known it if Raffaele knew she'd be tagging along anyway, he never bothered to tell her. Or perhaps Napoleoni misunderstood Giobbi and didn't tell Raffaele.
 
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Bruce,

It is my understanding ---from reading the pathologists' testimony recounted in the Massei Report---that there was exactly one mortal wound, and that wound was the stab wound to the right side of her neck, which severed an artery. But---for purposes of discussion---let's suppose that the larger wound to the left side of her neck was mortal too. (Meaning sufficient to cause death, without medical intervention.) In that case Hendry would still be wrong, or very misleading, since he recognizes only one mortal wound:

_________________________________________________
Hendry:

"The knife inflicting the mortal wound was likely thrust with considerable force into the throat to the full depth of the blade. The killer then pulled the knife upward with maximum force increasing the length of the gaping wound. The last one fourth of the wound involved tearing brought about by an extreme upward force being applied by the killer.



I believe this is a description of the large wound Massei attributes to Knox:

... Dr. Lalli attributed to the action of a pointed cutting instrument. The main wound was located in the left lateral region of the neck, and was [105] 8cm in length; the width could not be measured because the edges had separated due to the elasticity of the tissues both in relation to the region and to the position of the head, which could have modified the width. These wounds had a small "ʺtail"ʺ at the posterior end. The wound "ʺpenetrated into the interior of the structure of the neck in a slightly oblique direction, upwards and also towards the right" (page 15).

Massei (PMF) p111

The point Hendry is making is that this wound must be made with the full force of the knife, which would not be the case with the kitchen knife. Most of the experts believed this wound to be mortal.

I know this is slightly different from the main point of your post... 'the' mortal wound, but it was at any rate 'a' mortal wound.



- Also to Bruce - Congratulations on writing and publishing a book! No mean feat.
 
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Angel Face

I have just finished reading Angel Face and there are numerous items mentioned that are not consistent with information that is commonly accepted on this thread. Does anyone know if there is a rebuttal to the book or maybe a list of erroneous items with cites for corrections?

For example on page 41 or so, Ms. Nadeau states that the Luminol footprints were not tested for blood, when in fact the later testimony in court stated that they were tested and the results were negative for blood.
 
Part of Amanda's problem may have been her attempt to speak in Italian. She may have projected the image of being illiterate because she wasn't - at that time - totally fluent in Italian. Bilingual people always tell me that the second language is never as good as the native language.

The miscalculation of Amanda's intelligence and litteracy - due to the fact she was not speaking in her native tongue - hopefully will come back to hang the people that got her in this trouble.

I was going to remark on this.

It's easy to find yourself perceiving someone as stupid when they are trying to speak to you in your own language with barely any knowledge of it, and I always remind myself of this when I find myself in that situation.

Recall that the operatives bugging AK and RS were heard referring to them as "the cretins", and worse (Raff would have been trying tor keep his Italian as basic as he could when he was talking to Amanda).

Basically, this was a reflection of the operatives' stupidity, not AK's and RS's


I believe Amanda Knox's central problem was her ability to communicate effectively to her interrogators, and even in court. After watching the videos of her testimony, I can guess that her manner reflects her highest level of respect, which for her means applying her intellect to the situation. She comes across like she is giving a report to an honors committee, at least at the start. I could see a young Hillary Cllinton acting in much the same way.

However, to her interrogators, Amanda's presentation, her demeanor, combined with her imperfect understanding of Italian, could be read as cold detachment instead of respectful involvement.

It wonder if that was not the beginning of her troubles.
 
(CDHost, as a matter of principle, I too have contributed to the Amanda Defense Fund. Whether she's guilty or not she's entitled to a first class defense---which is expensive---without bankrupting her family. Still, it's troubling that the family won't publicly disclose the amount contributed to the Defense Fund. Maybe Charlie will ask the family for a clarification on this matter???)

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Hi Fine,
I am in awe that you would do something such as this!
Whether you gave a single 1 Dollar bill or Hundreds, well your kind gesture speaks volumes, in my humble opinion...

I used to be a person who believed in the guilt of Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito and Patrick Lumumba, but changed my opinion a couple of years ago.

If the police were to ever test that possible semen stain and it were to belong to Raffaele, well I would change my opinion of this case very quickly.
Ditto if that huuuuge knife ever had its handle disassembled and there was dried blood from Meredith or DNA found that was re-testable, though not from a machine stating 'Too Low'...

Fine,
What would it take for you to change your opinion that Amanda Knox and Rafffaele Sollecito had nothing to do with the brutal, bloody murder of Meredith Kercher?
The cops suddenly discovering that an audio or video recording actually did exist of that fatefull, late night interrogation involving 12 police officers?
Or maybe Luciano Aviello coming up with Merdith's keys and a blood stained knife?
I wonder what could make you change your mind that 'the lovebirds' are innocent?

Take it easy,
RWVBWL
 
IThey've also decided to help the government of Italy manage foreign affairs, convicting twenty three American and two Italian intelligence officers for an operation they didn't approve of, which some might think was the business of the elected officials of Italy to decide.

That one is a little dicey. Because officially of course the Italian government didn't approve of handing over an immigrant to US intelligence to cart off to Egypt to be tortured. Everyone knows off the books of course they approved of this black opp. The government isn't even requesting extradition or information. Everyone knows what happened. Giorgio Napolitano should have just declared it a matter of national security and pardoned everyone before the courts did anything.

Really though for the Italian courts to do a trial and even an appeal in absentia shows how little concern for justice they have. As a judge you do not issue order the government has no intention of implementing. It creates a precedent for lawlessness. I wish Giorgio Napolitano had just pardoned preemptively here.

___

As for Google I think the battle European speech codes is going to be one of the biggest issues facing US / European relations. Its been a very good 50 years for free speech and I think the idea of common carrier will be implemented in Europe. I believe the EU already has a similar statute and I'm sure Italy has laws that treaty obligations trump domestic law. This one is annoying but it is a last gasp of this sort of idea that the internet is governed locally.
 
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The timeline for the night of the long interrogations is somewhat sketchy still. This is what I've collected so far:

== Nov 5, 2007 ==
Amanda and Raffaele have classes today.
After class Amanda "met Patrick in front of the Universita per Stranieri". (Amanda Testimony)​
CP: Listen, in the statement of Nov 6 at 5:45, you declared to the police that you met Patrick in the morning of Nov 5, in front of the Universita per Stranieri.​
14:00 Rosa Natalia Guman Fernendez de Calle, RS' cleaning lady, cleans RS' apartment for the last time.
??:?? AK and RS are having a pizza at a friends home, police call and ask Raffaele to come to the station.
15:00 Raffaele picked up
"police picked up Rafaele Sollecito for questioning, three days after Kercher's body was discovered. Police located Sollecito at a cafe. It was three in the afternoon and Sollecito was eating a pizza. But Sollecito wasn't alone. Amanda Knox was also sharing the pizza" [http://www.wctv.tv/news/headlines/88398897.html]
17:00 Student Memorial for Meredith [http://www.monstersandcritics.com/n...pects_over_British_students_murder__Roundup_]
"A picture taken on Monday night November, 5 2007 shows a tribute from Meredith Kercher's friends in Perugia who held held a candlelight vigil on the steps of the town's cathedral.The English girl was brutally murdered at her apartment late last week."​
??:?? AK and RS arrive at station.
22:29 Amanda makes a 3 minute phone call to Filomena
Amanda says she "Just arrived" and Raffaele is being questioned.
The call ends with Amanda saying: "Now somebody wants to talk to me."​
22:40 Raffaele's statement
On November 5 2007, at 22.40, Sollecito Raffaele was interviewed again, and he changed his version of events, saying that on the evening of November 1, after Meredith left the house, he was with Knox Amanda until 1800 when they had both left the apartment to go into the centre, around 2030 to 2100. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1568860/Meredith-Kercher-murder-Judges-report.html (Telegraph:Judges Report)]​
??:?? The infamous cartwheel.​

If anyone has more details of this night (with references) I'd like to flesh this out. This segment of the timeline cuts off at midnight. I'll pick up with Nov. 6 later.

I don't claim these times area accurate. When the timeline is better filled in I'll strike or grey the obvious errors that were reported.
 
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______________________

Here's another one, Rose. An Italian Forum, begun two days after Meredith's death. More information on Raffaele, and his family, than in English-language Forums:

Vivicentro/Translated

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Thanks Fine. I have never seen that one before. It is an interesting collection and I am going to read through it in the next few days.
 



http://truecrimeweblog.freeforums.org/the-murder-of-meredith-kercher-f1.html

No longer active, but still loaded with info from the days before PMF where lots of familiar names posted.

______________________

Here's another one, Rose. An Italian Forum, begun two days after Meredith's death. More information on Raffaele, and his family, than in English-language Forums:

Vivicentro/Translated

///

Ok, I should have everyone's additions in this post. Thanks for all that contributed to the list.
 
not exactly a rebuttal

I have just finished reading Angel Face and there are numerous items mentioned that are not consistent with information that is commonly accepted on this thread. Does anyone know if there is a rebuttal to the book or maybe a list of erroneous items with cites for corrections?

For example on page 41 or so, Ms. Nadeau states that the Luminol footprints were not tested for blood, when in fact the later testimony in court stated that they were tested and the results were negative for blood.

daydreamer,

I wrote a few comments on the subject (see below), but there is not an exhaustive list, as far as I am aware. I think everyone was initially under a misapprehension about the luminol footprints, courtesy of ILE.

14896
14742
14460
 
the paradox of Meredith's wounds

To all,

I have never understood one thing. The pro-guilt position claims that there were a total of 42 defensive wounds (I think that this includes small cuts and bruises). However the lack of defensive wounds is sometimes given as a reason to think that there was more than one attacker. This seems to be a paradox. Can someone resolve this for me?
 
To all,

I have never understood one thing. The pro-guilt position claims that there were a total of 42 defensive wounds (I think that this includes small cuts and bruises). However the lack of defensive wounds is sometimes given as a reason to think that there was more than one attacker. This seems to be a paradox. Can someone resolve this for me?

Exactly right. If there were 3 attackers, the victim would have less chance to defend themself, hence less defensive wounds.
 
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