Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

[ProbeX]

You got it wrong when you tried to describe delusions as something we "can never really understand why they believe what they believe". I posted links to two research papers discussing the cultural influence on the content of the delusion of a schizophrenic and on the categories delusions can be classified in. It's not totally disconnected and random. There are themes which can be described and understood to some extent.

Your problem is you'll never be able to conclusively show precisely what his overall pattern of speech said about his motive in killing people.

Rather you continue to insist that YOU somehow magically are endowed with the ability to understand his speech patterns and the instrinsic meaning each word has held for him.

Let me tell you as someone educated and degreed in psychology; who has years of field experience: you DON'T have that understanding and it's mighty arrogant and naive of you to assume you do.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think we should take the time to pay respects to the real victim here.........

Sarah Palin.

 

[ProbeX]

I think we should take the time to pay respects to the real victim here.........

Sarah Palin.

And oddly, I agree. She victimized the Hell out of herself with that bit about blood libel. What a classy lady.

 

[ProbeX]

"In multiple instances, he uses the precise talking points sovereign-citizen theorists teach via a thriving cottage industry of books, websites, bogus legal companies, and seminars; one popular theorist, David Wynn Miller, told the New York Times that Loughner has "probably been on my website." (It's important to note that the sovereign-citizen movement is a philosophy, not an organized movement; ..."
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/sovereign-citizens-jared-lee-loughner

Even if he actually did get the words in this way (there's no clear way to know, really), so what? What is your point? Would it have mattered if he'd quoted something about the Constitution, the Bible or Dr. Seuss?

The man killed because he was insane and homicidal; not because of some or other words he read somewhere.

 

[Pardalis]

You got it wrong when you tried to describe delusions as something we "can never really understand why they believe what they believe". I posted links to two research papers discussing the cultural influence on the content of the delusion of a schizophrenic and on the categories delusions can be classified in. It's not totally disconnected and random. There are themes which can be described and understood to some extent.

Yes, but one can't understand exactly why one thinks something in particular, one can never enter completely the mind of someone who has lost his.

Some connections and associations one makes in his mind can be very arbitrary, and I'd say it's almost impossible to map it precisely, even for people with regular brains (heck, I don't even know why some things make me tick).

It was random which unstable person would react to the fear mongering campaign, but not random that the campaign risked triggering an unstable person.

And again, you can say the same of movies and books that play on themes of government conspiracies.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...(there's no clear way to know, really)....
The man killed because he was insane and homicidal; not because of some or other words he read somewhere.

I don't suppose you see the irony there?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, but one can't understand exactly why one thinks something in particular, one can never enter completely the mind of someone who has lost his.

Some connections and associations one makes in his mind can be very arbitrary, and I'd say it's almost impossible to map it precisely.

You don't need the specifics you are suggesting. The theme of 'fear the dangerous government', which is false and based on a political marketing campaign, has potentially dangerous consequences.

And again, you can say the same of movies and books that play on themes of government conspiracies.

You are back to repeating your false premise that if someone kills for jealousy it proves the other person didn't kill for money.

 

[Pardalis]

You don't need the specifics you are suggesting. The theme of 'fear the dangerous government', which is false and based on a political marketing campaign, has potentially dangerous consequences.

You are back to repeating your false premise that if someone kills for jealousy it proves the other person didn't kill for money.

You still haven't proved that this is what motivated Loughner, and you have long ways to go to prove it, and I don't see how you could.

So this is again all your speculation, based on your own political agenda.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You still haven't proved that this is what motivated Loughner, and you have long ways to go to prove it, and I don't see how you could.

So this is again all your speculation, based on your own political agenda.

You still have addressed the "fear the government" campaign tactic that is out of hand on the right.

 

[Pardalis]

You still have addressed the "fear the government" campaign tactic that is out of hand on the right.

I'm not American, so I only get a vision of your country through what I find in papers, the internet and television, and you guys here, so I don't think I've got enough first-hand experience of what's going on in your country to make that determination.

 

[ProbeX]

I don't suppose you see the irony there?

I don't suppose you've found irrefutable evidence yet for your claim yet?

 

[BenBurch]

Was Judas Priest responsible for teen suicide in the 80s?

Was The Matrix responsible for Columbine?

Are each of the child-stabbings in China responsible for the next one?

Is violent Republican rhetoric responsible for Tucson?

No, no, no, and no.

Was "The Protocols of The Elders Of Zion" responsible for persecution of Jewish people?

Was "Unintended Consequences" responsible for the OK City bombing?

Ultimately people are responsible for what they do, but it's bordering on delusional to think that words have no effect on them.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not American, so I only get a vision of your country through what I find in papers, the internet and television, and you guys here, so I don't think I've got enough first-hand experience of what's going on in your country to make that determination.

So all this time you've been arguing from a position of ignorance about the political fear mongering?



Fits with what I think of your arguments anyway.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Was "The Protocols of The Elders Of Zion" responsible for persecution of Jewish people?

Was "Unintended Consequences" responsible for the OK City bombing?

Ultimately people are responsible for what they do, but it's bordering on delusional to think that words have no effect on them.

And if those words are legit, or the actions justifiable, then preventing the consequences may not be something that is worth forgoing speaking the truth or taking a justifiable action.

But if those words are a trumped up campaign of creating unjustified fear for the sake of gaining political power, then those unintended consequences take on a different meaning.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't suppose you've found irrefutable evidence yet for your claim yet?

Do you have a clear idea yet in your mind what my claims are? That's where you need to start.

 

[BenBurch]

And if those words are legit, or the actions justifiable, then preventing the consequences may not be something that is worth forgoing speaking the truth or taking a justifiable action.

But if those words are a trumped up campaign of creating unjustified fear for the sake of gaining political power, then those unintended consequences take on a different meaning.

People intend consequences when they speak.

Sometimes they get what they intended.

Sometimes they get ignored.

Sometimes they intend different consequences that they achieve.

Sometimes they get exactly what they intend, but pretend that they meant something else to deflect criticism...

 

[Pardalis]

So all this time you've been arguing from a position of ignorance about the political fear mongering?



Fits with what I think of your arguments anyway.

I still see no evidence that this is what motivated this shooting.

Try again.

This time, don't confuse your speculations with reality.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I still see no evidence that this is what motivated this shooting.

Try again.

This time, don't confuse your speculations with reality.

No way, dude. You cannot have it both ways. Either you know the situation in the US or you don't. Either you understand what motivates a schizophrenic or you don't.

You can't just declare the world to be what you want it to be because you say so.

 

[Pardalis]

You can't just declare the world to be what you want it to be because you say so.

So what's your evidence that he was motivated by Republican rhetoric?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So what's your evidence that he was motivated by Republican rhetoric?

Please re-read all the evidence that Loughner's very specific delusional content closely matched the Repub theme of an unconstitutional government, a need to read the constitution, and the often publicized belief of Ron Paul that the currency is illegal because it is no longer backed by gold.

Then re-read all the evidence that while delusions of persecution are consistent among paranoid schizophrenics, needing to "read the constitution" is not common.