Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

[BeAChooser]

I honestly can not believe how vile you are being.

Because I express skepticism about there being no link between the slogan on the tshirts handed out at the memorial and the Obama administration, I'm more vile than the folks who have repeatedly tried to connect Palin and other republicans to the Tucson murders on this thread? I'm very curious why you have had nothing to say to them about that? Afterall, if this thread is really about being respectful to the victims of this tragedy and trying to heal, then casting assertions like that … from almost the very beginning of this thread … should have elicited *some* complaint from you.

The U of A put on this event on their own. You can not show any link between our memorial and a 3 year old blog post.

Yet any real skeptic would believe there is some link given what I have posted. It's just too coincidental that the exact same slogan as appeared on that OFA website in 2008 was the theme of this event and that they managed to create those tshirts in such short order. Now there really isn't a problem if there is a link, the slogan is somewhat fitting. But at least be honest and admit there is a link, if there is one.

There was not any political or economic message delivered.

Obama's message was this: "Rather than pointing fingers or assigning blame, let us use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations, to listen to each other more carefully, to sharpen our instincts for empathy, and remind ourselves of all the ways our hopes and dreams are bound together." But apparently many democrats on this thread, in the media and in the audience weren't listening. Perhaps I'm doing a service by pointing that out.

By the way, there was WILD cheering (even shouts of "we love you") when Obama was introduced (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QK4uMgZSN0&feature=player_embedded#! ). Did you not listen to glowing introduction he got?

America has been blessed through it's glorious history by visionary and committed Presidents who often, at great personal sacrifice, step forward to lead us to better futures and greater hope. Barack Obama assumed the Presidency at a perilous time in our history. And we are fortunate to have someone with his intellect, his energy and his heart to lead us forward.

Do you really want to claim there was no political aspect to this given an introduction like that? And if there was no underlying political rational to his attendance at the event, then why was the audience asked to applaud Obama via a jumbotron during his speech? You can see the sign asking for applause in the above video. Maybe you don't, but I call that a bit tacky given what this event was supposed to be about.

 

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by Pardalis
The shooting was done by a lone nut, and some people are trying to pin this on the Republicans ... snip ...

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how/why the blame applies.

Tell us Biscuit. Tell us I Am The Scum. Do you have *anything* to say to Skeptic Ginger?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a delusion is.

A delusion is by definition unreal, and there is no way we can predict what a schizophrenic is going to believe, and we can never really understand why they believe what they believe, because they are not rational. They make associations nobody else would, they see things nobody can see, because they re not there.

Pard, I said before, you really shouldn't be speaking on the nature of schizophrenia without doing a little more homework on the nature of this mental illness. And now here you are again speaking from ignorance.

So we should ban all movies, music and literature that follow that theme?

[snipped examples]

All these examples are poor analogies. You are trying to discount the consequences of fear mongering by claiming other schizophrenics murder without direct fear mongering contributing to their actions. That's like saying because jealousy was the motive for one murderer, it is proof robbery cannot be to blame for another.

You are doing the same fear mongering you are accusing other of making. What you need to do is to solve your personal issues you have with Republicans. It's unhealthy.

And people said much sicker things about Bush 43. Some people think he's a reptilian.

I don't have issues with "Republicans". I have issues with a dangerous dishonest campaign of fear mongering that is being promoted by a few Repubs. And my goal is to expose these kinds of manipulating marketing tactics whether they are coming from corporate campaigns to deny the science of global warming or political campaigns to stir up radicals to vote a certain way.

And I think my concern about the lack of critical thinking skills underlying much of the problems here is very healthy. We need to address the propaganda techniques and effectiveness, not the underlying political sentiments. If people recognized when there were attempts to manipulate their beliefs and emotions, then the marketers (political, corporate, or salespeople) would not be effective.

Obama is not a socialist. If anything he's too pro-private business. The government is not unconstitutional. Switching to the gold standard is not going to fix the economy. That's why Ron Paul's view is not held by the majority of economists. Global climate change is supported by the scientific evidence. Glenn Beck's ideas are loony. Dr Tiller was not a baby killer. And Fox News has a purposeful policy of repeating lies on a regular basis on air.

You can have the opinion that you prefer a little more or a little less free market, or regulations. You can have the opinion the Fed is making bad decisions. You can believe abortions are wrong. You can disagree on what to do about global climate change.

But if a critical mass of people are convinced of any one of the numerous falsehoods promoted by some marketing campaign for whatever motive, then we are all at risk of being worse off. It can be a single individual murdering 6 people or an unfortunate political outcome like Obama reversing the legislation for Living Will counseling reimbursement because of the "death panel" lie.

What I'd like to see from the posts I've written, is one more person recognizing what the fear mongering campaign is all about, how it is carried out, and what it looks like. Then I'd like that one person to teach another.

 

[ProbeX]

And you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a delusion is.

A delusion is by definition unreal, and there is no way we can predict what a schizophrenic is going to believe, and we can never really understand why they believe what they believe, because they are not rational. They make associations nobody else would, they see things nobody can see, because they re not there.

So we should ban all movies, music and literature that follow that theme?

So no more The Conversation, The Matrix, The X Files, Jacob's Ladder, Megadeath, Pantera, Green Day, Robin Cook, Richard Condon, Michael Crichton, John Le Carré? We should ban them so that schizos don't get "ideas".

Yes, a common theme amongst conspiracy theorists. Should we ban all conspiracy theorist websites, should we ban Alex jones? Should we ban Ron Paul and Lyndon Larouche?

So we should ban all media that present themes about powerful women and rich kids?

Maybe we should ask Hillary Clinton to resign, so that schizos who have issues with women don't act upon their delusions.

Yes, America is a very schizophrenic nation, that's one of its quirks. So what?

I guess America has its own kind of schizos, so does France and South Korea, and Québec. I doubt schizophernics in Russia have delusions specific to the Federal reserve. We're all products of our culture, the insane included.

He read whatever he could find that would fuel his delusions. That's what he found, but he would have found another source for his delusions if it fitted him.

Again, you can't predict what will tick off a schizophrenic.

A TV commercial can tick them off, a verse in a song, a sign on a bus, a wrong number call.

Could anyone have predicted Björk's innocuous songs could generate such delusions and violence in one person?

And you're making such a racket about Republicans that you're not helping. Every post you make in the politics forums is about how evil the Republicans are.

You are doing the same fear mongering you are accusing other of making. What you need to do is to solve your personal issues you have with Republicans. It's unhealthy.

And people said much sicker things about Bush 43. Some people think he's a reptilian.

I've made the same basic points but she is simply not picking up what's being put down. And you're right about things said about Bush 43. I participated in several protest marches in SF when the Iraqi War kicked off. Some of my fellow protestors said some pretty violent she-ot.

 

[Pardalis]

Pard, I said before, you really shouldn't be speaking on the nature of schizophrenia without doing a little more homework on the nature of this mental illness. And now here you are again speaking from ignorance.

Pedantic evasion noted.

You are trying to discount the consequences of fear mongering by claiming other schizophrenics murder without direct fear mongering contributing to their actions.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

You said:

When your primary campaign message is one of, "fear the illegal government, they are a danger to you", and, "the government is so bad, an armed revolution could be needed", that is a message that can reinforce the beliefs of a paranoid schizophrenic whose delusions center around the same theme.

I'm saying those movies, books and bands promote the same theme and ideas about oppressive governments, they too reinforce the schizophrenics beliefs, and yet nobody blames them for when schizophrenics act after reading/watching/listening to them.

Why do you think that is?

I don't have issues with "Republicans". I have issues with a dangerous dishonest campaign of fear mongering that is being promoted by a few Repubs.

Yes you do, you just called them "Repubs".

If people recognized when there were attempts to manipulate their beliefs and emotions, then the marketers (political, corporate, or salespeople) would not be effective.

The problem is that Loughner is a schizophrenic. He will believe what he will believe, and nobody can predict what that will be, and stop him from believing it.

Obama is not a socialist. If anything he's too pro-private business. The government is not unconstitutional. Switching to the gold standard is not going to fix the economy. That's why Ron Paul's view is not held by the majority of economists. Global climate change is supported by the scientific evidence. Glenn Beck's ideas are loony. Dr Tiller was not a baby killer. And Fox News has a purposeful policy of repeating lies on a regular basis on air.

And what does that got to do with this shooting?

You could explain all this to Loughner all day and night, for months, he will still keep to his delusions. He will not respond to rational enquiry and evidence, ever (unless medicated I suppose).

Just like the case of Björk's stalker you keep ignoring. A team of psychiatrists could have tried for decades to explain to him that the songs weren't addressed to him personally, he would still believe it, because his beliefs are not based on reality.

Do you have another definition of "delusion' I am not aware of?

What I'd like to see from the posts I've written, is one more person recognizing what the fear mongering campaign is all about, how it is carried out, and what it looks like. Then I'd like that one person to teach another.

What I'd really like is for you to address the topic, which is the shooting, and Loughner's schizophrenia, and answer my question about Björk's stalker.

 

[I Ratant]

...
But if a critical mass of people are convinced of any one of the numerous falsehoods promoted by some marketing campaign for whatever motive, then we are all at risk of being worse off...

.
That's termed "political campaigning"...
Fooling just enough people at the right time to get elected. Or re-elected.

 

[I Ratant]

...
I'm saying those movies, books and bands promote the same theme and ideas about oppressive governments, and yet nobody blames them for when schizophrenics act after reading/watching/listening to them.

Why do you think that is?

....

.
Most of us can separate theater from reality. Those movies, books and bands are usually theater.
Come campaign time, then it gets serious, and not easily dismissed as entertainment, when the theme is inflated to danger to the society or the personal level, to rouse the rabble.

 

[Pardalis]

Most of us can separate theater from reality.

And schizophrenics do?

Come campaign time, then it gets serious, and not easily dismissed as entertainment, when the theme is inflated to danger to the society or the personal level, to rouse the rabble.

And most of us see that for what it is, political posturing and belligerence. The usual flame wars.

 

[Pardalis]

Untreated schizophrenics are experiencing a world of hallucinations. Their brains are on the fritz. They are not thinking normally, rationally, realistically, or however one can describe it.
[...]
Yet when it is the brain that is totally malfunctioning, you hold the individual responsible. It's sad that people misunderstand how jumbled untreated schizophrenic brains are.

That's pretty much my understanding of schizophrenia.

Tell me what I got wrong Skeptigirl?

(BTW, I made my comment about his execution before I found out about his condition, so obviously I have changed my mind since then about his fate)

 

[Toontown]

Pard, I said before, you really shouldn't be speaking on the nature of schizophrenia without doing a little more homework on the nature of this mental illness. And now here you are again speaking from ignorance.

All these examples are poor analogies. You are trying to discount the consequences of fear mongering by claiming other schizophrenics murder without direct fear mongering contributing to their actions. That's like saying because jealousy was the motive for one murderer, it is proof robbery cannot be to blame for another.


I don't have issues with "Republicans". I have issues with a dangerous dishonest campaign of fear mongering that is being promoted by a few Repubs. And my goal is to expose these kinds of manipulating marketing tactics whether they are coming from corporate campaigns to deny the science of global warming or political campaigns to stir up radicals to vote a certain way.

And I think my concern about the lack of critical thinking skills underlying much of the problems here is very healthy. We need to address the propaganda techniques and effectiveness, not the underlying political sentiments. If people recognized when there were attempts to manipulate their beliefs and emotions, then the marketers (political, corporate, or salespeople) would not be effective.

Obama is not a socialist. If anything he's too pro-private business. The government is not unconstitutional. Switching to the gold standard is not going to fix the economy. That's why Ron Paul's view is not held by the majority of economists. Global climate change is supported by the scientific evidence. Glenn Beck's ideas are loony. Dr Tiller was not a baby killer. And Fox News has a purposeful policy of repeating lies on a regular basis on air.

You can have the opinion that you prefer a little more or a little less free market, or regulations. You can have the opinion the Fed is making bad decisions. You can believe abortions are wrong. You can disagree on what to do about global climate change.

But if a critical mass of people are convinced of any one of the numerous falsehoods promoted by some marketing campaign for whatever motive, then we are all at risk of being worse off. It can be a single individual murdering 6 people or an unfortunate political outcome like Obama reversing the legislation for Living Will counseling reimbursement because of the "death panel" lie.

What I'd like to see from the posts I've written, is one more person recognizing what the fear mongering campaign is all about, how it is carried out, and what it looks like. Then I'd like that one person to teach another.

Ask, and you shall receive. ^This^ is what a political fear-mongering campaign looks like, everyone.

 

[bikerdruid]

Pard, I said before, you really shouldn't be speaking on the nature of schizophrenia without doing a little more homework on the nature of this mental illness. And now here you are again speaking from ignorance.

All these examples are poor analogies. You are trying to discount the consequences of fear mongering by claiming other schizophrenics murder without direct fear mongering contributing to their actions. That's like saying because jealousy was the motive for one murderer, it is proof robbery cannot be to blame for another.


I don't have issues with "Republicans". I have issues with a dangerous dishonest campaign of fear mongering that is being promoted by a few Repubs. And my goal is to expose these kinds of manipulating marketing tactics whether they are coming from corporate campaigns to deny the science of global warming or political campaigns to stir up radicals to vote a certain way.

And I think my concern about the lack of critical thinking skills underlying much of the problems here is very healthy. We need to address the propaganda techniques and effectiveness, not the underlying political sentiments. If people recognized when there were attempts to manipulate their beliefs and emotions, then the marketers (political, corporate, or salespeople) would not be effective.

Obama is not a socialist. If anything he's too pro-private business. The government is not unconstitutional. Switching to the gold standard is not going to fix the economy. That's why Ron Paul's view is not held by the majority of economists. Global climate change is supported by the scientific evidence. Glenn Beck's ideas are loony. Dr Tiller was not a baby killer. And Fox News has a purposeful policy of repeating lies on a regular basis on air.

You can have the opinion that you prefer a little more or a little less free market, or regulations. You can have the opinion the Fed is making bad decisions. You can believe abortions are wrong. You can disagree on what to do about global climate change.

But if a critical mass of people are convinced of any one of the numerous falsehoods promoted by some marketing campaign for whatever motive, then we are all at risk of being worse off. It can be a single individual murdering 6 people or an unfortunate political outcome like Obama reversing the legislation for Living Will counseling reimbursement because of the "death panel" lie.

What I'd like to see from the posts I've written, is one more person recognizing what the fear mongering campaign is all about, how it is carried out, and what it looks like. Then I'd like that one person to teach another.

...and the truth shall set [them] free.
well said.

 

[ProbeX]

It extremely unlikely to be a coincidence that Loughner's theme in his delusion of persecution was specifically about the gold standard ...

Or I was just bats**t crazy, listener?

 

[case#46cw39]

What was going on in Jared Loughner's mind? Based on his online rantings, the man who allegedly emptied a 31-round clip into Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) and dozens of bystanders Saturday was preoccupied with theories on a massive government fraud. Many of his seemingly random statements—on "grammar," "the ratifications," "the new currency," and more—echo the teachings of the "sovereign citizen" movement, a right-wing school of thought alleging that Americans have been surreptitiously stripped of their God-given rights.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/sovereign-citizens-jared-lee-loughner

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's pretty much my understanding of schizophrenia.

Tell me what I got wrong Skeptigirl?

You got it wrong when you tried to describe delusions as something we "can never really understand why they believe what they believe". I posted links to two research papers discussing the cultural influence on the content of the delusion of a schizophrenic and on the categories delusions can be classified in. It's not totally disconnected and random. There are themes which can be described and understood to some extent.

So it would be random that Giffords ended up as the focus of Loughner, but not random that it was a political figure who represented the unconstitutional government he believed was persecuting him. It was random which students Cho shot, but not random he went to the university to find them.

It was random which unstable person would react to the fear mongering campaign, but not random that the campaign risked triggering an unstable person. And Loughner is not the only unstable person the fear mongering provoked a reaction in. He's just the first one to get such publicity for it.

(BTW, I made my comment about his execution before I found out about his condition, so obviously I have changed my mind since then about his fate)

Glad to hear that.

 

[I Ratant]

And schizophrenics do?

.
Dense as usual.
'most of us' excludes some people.
Crazies are excluded.
.

And most of us see that for what it is, political posturing and belligerence. The usual flame wars.

.
And here you use it properly.
And the crazies don't see it as business as usual, but take it personally. QED, with the Tea Party and the Klan and other loopy groups.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how/why the blame applies.

When your primary campaign message is one of, "fear the illegal government, they are a danger to you", and, "the government is so bad, an armed revolution could be needed", that is a message that can reinforce the beliefs of a paranoid schizophrenic whose delusions center around the same theme.

They have now released an additional video made by Loughner before he was expelled from the community college. He repeats multiple times throughout the video that the government is unconstitutional and the currency is illegal. That is the same theme in his MySpace and YouTube videos. The specifics, (illegal currency and unconstitutional government) are not the themes in every homicidal schizophrenic who acts on their delusions.

·
·
·​

So, is this me claiming Palin's tiny piece of the whole picture is directly responsible for these homicides? No. To tell you the truth I find Karl Rove, Rupert Murdoch and the Repub Party leadership that has been intensely exploiting the fear mongering message much more culpable than Palin.

·
·
·​

And that fact should not be buried by the defensive conservatives who prefer not to think about the fact the fear mongering is a campaign lie. If you believe the false message Obama is a dangerous socialist and the government itself is dangerous and unconstitutional, you are unlikely to be able to see how that message has dangerous consequences.

In a free society—in order for such a society to remain free—government is not, and cannot ever be, above criticism and distrust.

Indeed, this nation was founded on distrust of—and ultimately violent rebellion against—the government which previously claimed authority to govern the people here.

There are many of us who rationally believe that our current government has far exceeded its legitimate authority in many areas, and needs to be brought back under control and in line with our Constitution.

It is you, and those like you, who are cynically, fraudulently exploiting a tragedy for political gain; and engaging in lies, hyperbole, and fearmongering, in a pathetic and despicable attempt to shame into silence, those whose opinions you do not like. Shame on you. Shame on you. People like you are an abject embarrassment to this nation and to those of us who believe in the principles upon which it was founded.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

What was going on in Jared Loughner's mind? Based on his online rantings, the man who allegedly emptied a 31-round clip into Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-Ariz.) and dozens of bystanders Saturday was preoccupied with theories on a massive government fraud. Many of his seemingly random statements—on "grammar," "the ratifications," "the new currency," and more—echo the teachings of the "sovereign citizen" movement, a right-wing school of thought alleging that Americans have been surreptitiously stripped of their God-given rights.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/sovereign-citizens-jared-lee-loughner

There was the additional content theme of the grammar, and I think the Southern Poverty Law Center may have found where that odd idea came from. There is very likely any number of things that ended up in Loughner's delusional system. And generally it is not a single message the schizophrenic person hears that triggers a homicidal event. Typically, they receive messages (in their mind) all the time.

But messages that reinforce the delusions contribute to the homicidal schizophrenic reaching the point of acting, (I posted a link on that earlier). More often than not some other trauma in the person's life, like being fired or kicked out of school or their house, things like that, are the actual trigger to act.

 

[ProbeX]

What was going on in Jared Loughner's mind? ...

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/sovereign-citizens-jared-lee-loughner

And yet there were so many things on his (disorganized) mind that were suggestive of anything But RW politics. This guy's mind is being Rorschached to death at this point.

... Let's say the gunman had quoted Revelation passages from the Bible before killing people, or cool snippets of Shel Silverstein poetry from a picture book? So what. The point is he killed because he was insane and homicidal; not because of some or other words he read somewhere.

(Then again I do find Silverstein's "Who Ordered the Broiled Face?" poem a bit disturbing. The accompanying illustration is great. ... And the Bible is more than just a little jarring so hmmm ... )

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

In a free society—in order for such a society to remain free—government is not, and cannot ever be, above criticism and distrust.

Indeed, this nation was founded on distrust of—and ultimately violent rebellion against—the government which previously claimed authority to govern the people here.


[personal attack snipped]

It's interesting that what I've been exclusively referring to is fear mongering based on falsehoods, yet you have conflated that with legitimate distrust or criticism of the government.

Have you bought the right wing Koolaid that Obama is a socialist despite not one shred of evidence? That's he's a Kenyan Muslim pretending to be an American born Christian? That they needed to read the Constitution the first day of this legislative session because the government during the last legislative session was acting so far beyond the Constitution that the country is at risk of falling into enemy hands (whatever that means)?

There are many of us who rationally believe that our current government has far exceeded its legitimate authority in many areas, and needs to be brought back under control and in line with our Constitution.

You answered my question.

 

[case#46cw39]

"In multiple instances, he uses the precise talking points sovereign-citizen theorists teach via a thriving cottage industry of books, websites, bogus legal companies, and seminars; one popular theorist, David Wynn Miller, told the New York Times that Loughner has "probably been on my website." (It's important to note that the sovereign-citizen movement is a philosophy, not an organized movement; ..."
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/sovereign-citizens-jared-lee-loughner