Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris C]

Don't know what to make of this:

http://www.asca.it/news-MEREDITH__D...ESE_CONDANNATO_PUSHER_AMANDA-981715-ORA-.html

Google Translation:

MEREDITH: ENGLISH DEATH INVESTIGATION ORDERED BY AMANDA PUSHER
(AGI) - Perugia, Jan. 14 - The murder of Meredith Kercher, and the context in which 'emerged, one related to approvals''of youth between behavioral, values and deviance,''continues to talk about'. Back to highlight this morning, the local daily newspaper''The Umbria''(always attentive to each other in investigation and trial) that giving notice of the sentencing to 2 years and 8 months in prison for a drug dealer of cocaine, which would known and popular Amanda Knox, wonders whether this has had on crime investigation and assessments, especially if, now, could have implications in the appeal process in respect of the American and Raffaele Sollecito. At the pusher and the police 'came through the mobile phone number found in the list stored on the phone to Amanda. Calls between the two utilities would that occurred in the days before and after the murder of Mez encouraging, therefore, a study that led to the discovery of a drug ring for college students and professionals. A traffic featuring 3 guys (hypothesized as a provider and a lover of the American) and in respect of which 'opened a case file. In particular, disclosure of the police reports attached to the file which stresses''in the course of 'criminal investigation on the 9066/07 (the one for murdering Kercher, ed) is established that an Italian person. ..

would supply the drug occasionally Amanda Knox, as well as having allegedly had with her sexual relations.'' The activity 'of the police also carried out through wiretaps found that the three supplied the acropolis of the capital and also part of the periphery of cocaine, in response to customer orders and also to meet the demand of the Maghreb.

The defendants (defended by counsel Maria Laura Antonini, Angelo Pugliese and Aurelio Frioni), have opted for different strategies, a request for continuation of proceedings in criminal matters pending with other positions, a request for settlement, rejected by the court and a fast-track trial, concluded precisely with a sentence of 2 years and 8 months.

pg / gc / lv

Only Speculation:

I guess that would be the 3 guys downstairs who were caught with pot plants? Though one of the guys down stairs was Meredith's boyfriend, not Knox's.

 

[el buscador]

Only Speculation:

I guess that would be the 3 guys downstairs who were caught with pot plants? Though one of the guys down stairs was Meredith's boyfriend, not Knox's.

There were no names mentioned but I suppose the names will come. I would also suppose that if the phone call/s after the murder were taped and could provide any evidence that Amanda had purchased cocaine that the call/s would have been brought up in court.

 

[TomCH]

1) Why break down a door they themselves had locked?

Because they threw away the keys the night before.

2)Since they murdered Meredith, and have taken her keys, they have her keys and could unlock the door.

Not if they threw them away.

 

[Alt+F4]

Don't know what to make of this:

http://www.asca.it/news-MEREDITH__D...ESE_CONDANNATO_PUSHER_AMANDA-981715-ORA-.html

Google translate sucks but it seems to be saying that one of three convicted Perugian drug deals has stated that he sold cocaine to Amanda and had sex with her. I can't figure out if he's saying that this happened the night of the murder or sometime before.

 

[Chris C]

There were no names mentioned but I suppose the names will come. I would also suppose that if the phone call/s after the murder were taped and could provide any evidence that Amanda had purchased cocaine that the call/s would have been brought up in court.

Well they definately didn't testify they sold cocaine to Knox or Sollecito at Knox/Sollecito's trial. They could have easily got a plea bargain for that. Though according to the PMF crew, it seems that Knox having their phone number is worse than Curatolo selling heroin. The Machine feels that curatolo is the victim for selling heroin.

 

[Fuji]

Fuji,

In one study the Innocence Project found that false confessions played a role in 24% of the cases of wrongful convictions. The total number of cases was small, but I suspect that is because proof of innocence is often not available. Proof of innocence via DNA is only a possibility in cases involving DNA evidence, which is a small subset of all cases. Cell phones can sometimes provide proof of innocence, but again, not in every case. The question everyone should be asking is whether there are innocent people in prison on the basis of false confessions who are unable to provide proof of innocence. Putting it another way, the number of provably false confessions is surely smaller than the total number of false confessions.

Hi halides1. I saw that 24% figure when I was doing my (admittedly) cursory research into the issue of false confessions. However - as you note, that 24% figure refers to cases of wrongful convictions, not all convictions - or even arrests. Surely, the percentage of actualy internalized false confessions relative to all statements made to the police during criminal investigations is far lower than 24%.

I know this might be hard for some to accept, but I honestly do have a great deal of respect for the good work that the Innocence Project does. I just don't think that Knox and Sollecito merit consideration as wrongful convictions.

 

[Fuji]

OK, so you have grounds for suspicion, but suspicion is not proof.

Fair enough. You are correct. I have not and never would assert that - in and of itself - lying to the police during a criminal investigation constitutes conclusive evidence of guilt or involvement. However, it certainly is, as you note, cause for suspicion.

 

[Fuji]

Well no, obviously you can't reason quite well on your own, because you keep making errors like this. You don't know what a false dilemma is, you don't know what sophistry is, you can't parse a logical argument, and you don't know the difference between a logical contradiction and something that is merely highly improbable...

If you don't understand something ask about it. Pretending you understand and taking a guess at what might be a rational rebuttal is about as likely to succeed as pretending you understand Japanese and trying to respond to a Japanese speaker by making noises that you think sound like they might be Japanese...

I resent the implication that my snark is contentless - I present rigorous arguments and accurate appraisals of failures to be rational, and the snark is a bonus.

This will be my last post to you. Unlike others who are, as you snidely insinuate, "retreating to their own echo chambers for comfort", I will not be abandoning the JREF or even this thread. I am, however, abandoning any hope of having a civil discourse with you.

I will talk with just about anyone else in this thread on the "other side". Though I disagree with many of their conclusions, I hold halides1, Charlie Wilkes, and Rose Montague, among others, in high esteem as those who are able to have a rational discussion of this case without resorting to condescension and rudeness.

It is really unfortunate that this must be the case, as you are obviously an intelligent fellow, but I cannot and will not abide discourse with an individual who apparently feels the incessant need to personally insult and demean his rhetorical opponents. Your persistent tone of nastiness in these threads has transformed what could otherwise have been a stimulating discussion into an exercise in conversational masochism.

Congratulations. You "won".

 

[Dan O.]

Don't know what to make of this:

http://www.asca.it/news-MEREDITH__D...ESE_CONDANNATO_PUSHER_AMANDA-981715-ORA-.html

A crime, trial, sentence, lawyers... but none of the three defendants are named.

We've heard earlier allegations that Amanda had called Rudy Guede in the days before and after the murder. Whatever became of that?

We know that Amanda's calls were being recorded. What kind of conversation could Amanda have had with this supposed dealer that did not lead to suspicion in the murder investigation but triggered a side investigation into a drug ring?

The timing of this news is very suspicious.

 

[el buscador]

A crime, trial, sentence, lawyers... but none of the three defendants are named.

We've heard earlier allegations that Amanda had called Rudy Guede in the days before and after the murder. Whatever became of that?

We know that Amanda's calls were being recorded. What kind of conversation could Amanda have had with this supposed dealer that did not lead to suspicion in the murder investigation but triggered a side investigation into a drug ring?

The timing of this news is very suspicious.

Reading around there is some speculation that it could be Raffaele because the article says that the dealer was Amanda's lover. Certainly Amanda called him both before and after the murder. But how could her calls link to a drug dealer then? Unless there will be claims and evidence that Raffaele was a dealer. But Amanda also slept with Daniel so could he be part of this?

It's all curious but I don't see how this ties into the murder. It's seems to be just more peripheral information that doesn't mean anything when there is still no evidence of Amanda nor Raffaele in the murder room.

 

[babycondor]

A crime, trial, sentence, lawyers... but none of the three defendants are named.

We've heard earlier allegations that Amanda had called Rudy Guede in the days before and after the murder. Whatever became of that?

We know that Amanda's calls were being recorded. What kind of conversation could Amanda have had with this supposed dealer that did not lead to suspicion in the murder investigation but triggered a side investigation into a drug ring?

The timing of this news is very suspicious.

Right, just after the revelation of alleged heroin dealing by the prosecution's super witness, Curatolo. I'm speculating that this latest sensational news, which as far as I can tell based on the translation, attempts to link Amanda to a cocaine dealer, represents a counter-strike by the prosecution. What a circus.

 

[JREF2010]

one theory of the lamp was Merediths bulb was burnt out and
maybe she borrowed Amandas lamp. who knows?

 

[el buscador]

Right, just after the revelation of alleged heroin dealing by the prosecution's super witness, Curatolo. I'm speculating that this latest sensational news, which as far as I can tell based on the translation, attempts to link Amanda to a cocaine dealer, represents a counter-strike by the prosecution. What a circus.

It looks like one of the reasons the story came out now is that one of the 3 dealers went for a fast track trial and his sentence was handed down today, 2 years and some months I believe.

 

[colonelhall]

Very amusing. You want me to point to evidence that backs up claims for any of my mere suggestions. At the same time you are supporting wild conjecture that you think backs up your claims.

It's a laugh a minute with you guys!

 

[CDHost]

Intro from CD-Host

A quick hello.

Hi. I'm not sure if it is the tradition here on JREF to do introductions or not. I'm the moderator for the defunct (though possibly coming back to life) Church Discipline blog (not allowed to link yet): I've recently become interested in the Amanda Knox case and have been posting about it. This seems to be an active forum for conversation.

Examine the list of posters I think I know some of you from my few hours on PMF before being banned for not being part of the group think, and a few of you from elsewhere. I'll jump in on the drug dealer issue for today in a separate post. If this intro is inappropriate I'm new here, so feel free to delete.

 

[LondonJohn]

Reading around there is some speculation that it could be Raffaele because the article says that the dealer was Amanda's lover. Certainly Amanda called him both before and after the murder. But how could her calls link to a drug dealer then? Unless there will be claims and evidence that Raffaele was a dealer. But Amanda also slept with Daniel so could he be part of this?

It's all curious but I don't see how this ties into the murder. It's seems to be just more peripheral information that doesn't mean anything when there is still no evidence of Amanda nor Raffaele in the murder room.

Even if one of these three is Sollecito (and from the tone and content of the article, I don't think this is the case), we're not discussing whether or not he's a coke dealer. If he did deal coke (and, again, I don't think he did), then he should be prosecuted and convicted of this offence if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But it wouldn't (and shouldn't) materially add to the issue of whether he (and Knox) were participants in the murder of Meredith Kercher - unless the prosecution were able to show that a drugs deal played a part in the murder.

And before "some people" start to shout something along the lines of "Oh, so different standards would apply to Sollecito and Curatolo, even if both were rightfully convicted of dealing class A drugs?", well in relation to the murder charges against Sollecito and Knox, different standards most certainly would apply to Sollecito and Curatolo. If Curatolo is a key witness whose testimony might have contributed to the conviction of Sollecito (and Knox), then it's clear that his evidence must be completely untainted by suspicions of untrustworthy conduct, unreliability and/or low credibility in order for it to help convict people of murder.

Whereas even if Sollecito had run an international drugs empire from his apartment, or if Knox had been a brothel keeper with 100 illegal Albanian girls working under duress for her, this would be irrelevant in a trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher (unless, as I said before, either of these activities had a direct relevance to the murder itself). Of course, if either of these scenarios (international drug overlord, seedy brothel madam) had been the case, then Sollecito or Knox should have been charged accordingly and convicted if the evidence proved their guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But they'd still not be worthy of being found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the murder of Meredith Kercher. There's simply not sufficient evidence (in my view) that they were involved in that crime.

Lastly, I'd also add that evidence that Knox called one of these convicted coke dealers "before and after" Meredith's murder is a very long way from being a problem for Knox. Drug dealers have lives outside dealing drugs, and it's perfectly feasible that Knox was communicating with this guy in nothing more than a "casual friend" capacity. Imagine, for example, if the person in question was Knox's friend "Shaky" - or for than matter any of the men Knox knew and/or worked with in the bars in Perugia? There are plenty of reasons why Knox might have known and phoned one of these men, only one of which is that she was obtaining hard drugs from him.

Oh, and the report says that the police seemed to think that the guy had been a "lover" of Knox's - yet this mystery man categorically doesn't seem to appear in Knox's prison HIV list of previous lovers - amongst whom the only two Italian entries are Daniel (an infrequent visitor to the boys below, who lived in Rome) and Sollecito. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[Alt+F4]

A quick hello.

Hi. I'm not sure if it is the tradition here on JREF to do introductions or not. I'm the moderator for the defunct (though possibly coming back to life) Church Discipline blog (not allowed to link yet): I've recently become interested in the Amanda Knox case and have been posting about it. This seems to be an active forum for conversation.

Examine the list of posters I think I know some of you from my few hours on PMF before being banned for not being part of the group think, and a few of you from elsewhere. I'll jump in on the drug dealer issue for today in a separate post. If this intro is inappropriate I'm new here, so feel free to delete.

Hello and welcome!

 

[CDHost]

Drug dealers

I'm not sure how linking Amanda to a coke dealer is bad for her. The trial is over.

Meredith's boyfriend was growing and she was at least tangentially involved day of the murder (watering)
Amanda was a user
Filomena Romanelli and Laura Mezzetti seemed to be party chicks

There was a robbery of Meredith money, if it was just rent no biggie. If it was a lot of money. The prosecution's case is done based on the sex, jealousy.... angle. Drug dealers killing other drug dealers over money is like 10,000 more common then roommates of 3 weeks offing one another over sexual jealousy. Since Meredith was never investigated we don't know much about how involved she was in Giacomo Silenzi's business. I don't want to engage in rampant speculation but Giacomo was the one who early on fingered Amanda for acting weird.

I'm not sure getting drugs involved at this phase of the case is not to Amanda's benefit.

 

[Chris C]

Very amusing. You want me to point to evidence that backs up claims for any of my mere suggestions. At the same time you are supporting wild conjecture that you think backs up your claims.

It's a laugh a minute with you guys!

I didn't ask you for evidence to back up your claims. I ask you what was dropped or what was cleaned up. I hear alot about the clean up in the bedroom. Yet I never hear what was cleaned up.

 

[Alt+F4]

If Curatolo is a key witness whose testimony might have contributed to the conviction of Sollecito (and Knox), then it's clear that his evidence must be completely untainted by suspicions of untrustworthy conduct, unreliability and/or low credibility in order for it to help convict people of murder.

What the double standard! In the appeal the defense wants to call a man serving a life sentence for murder (Allesi) and another man serving a 17-year sentence for Mafia activity (Aviello).

Who could be more accussed of "untrustworthy conduct" than Allesi, a man who murdered a baby with a shovel?

If it's ok for the defense to use vile criminals to prove their point, why can't the prosecution use small time drug sellers to prove theirs?