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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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So he has testified in 3 murder trials since his arrest for dealing heroin in 2003? Now 8 years later he is going to court for his drug charge. Do you think the other 2 murder trials are going to go back to the supreme court for a relook now that Curatolo has been charged with being a drug dealer and if his testimony gets ruled a load of BS? Makes you wonder if there are outstanding charges against Guede. Curatolo has been near the crime scene of 3 different murders. Guede's defense team must be loving this now. They can point the finger at Curatolo. I mean what are the odds to be present at 3 murder scenes and not be looked at as a suspect.
 
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The other interesting angle in this is that the investigation against Curatolo appears to have been conducted by the Carabinieri - who have a long-standing rivalry with the state police (and who tend to look down on the state police as "plods"). I wonder if the Carabinieri - perhaps in conjunction with their own "preferred" prosecutor in Perugia - have chosen this issue to expose the state police apparatus?

Just an idle thought.

Something is afoot. Why is he only now facing charges in connection with a surveillance operation conducted several years ago? It could not come at a better time for those of us who support Amanda and Raffaele.
 
So he has testified in 3 murder trials since his arrest for dealing heroin in 2003? Now 8 years later he is going to court for his drug charge. Do you think the other 2 murder trials are going to go back to the supreme court for a relook now that Curatolo has been charged with being a drug dealer and if his testimony gets ruled a load of BS? Makes you wonder if there are outstanding charges against Guede. Curatolo has been near the crime scene of 3 different murders. Guede's defense team must be loving this now. They can point the finger at Curatolo. I mean what are the odds to be present at 3 murder scenes and not be looked at as a suspect.

It really makes me wonder. Why charge him now for dealing heroin in 2003? The first thought that comes to mind is that someone has been blackmailing him. Like someone on the police force or a prosecutor has been telling Curatolo that he if does not testify as they want, they will bring this charge against him. I wonder.
 
It really makes me wonder. Why charge him now for dealing heroin in 2003? The first thought that comes to mind is that someone has been blackmailing him. Like someone on the police force or a prosecutor has been telling Curatolo that he if does not testify as they want, they will bring this charge against him. I wonder.

I'm guessing its part of the war between Giuliano Mignini and Silvio Berlusconi. Mignini has overstepped himself a few times and got tangled up with Berlusconi. I'm betting Berlusconi found some dirt(curatolo dealing Heroin) that would throw mud on Mignini and used his influence. I dont know how many times they openly crossed paths, but if I remember correctly, Mignini went after Berlusconi's girlfriend and Berlusconi got involved in the Mario Spezi fiasco. Mignini is already facing a conviction for abuse of office. If the Knox/Sollecito case gets tossed, Mignini might loose what allies he has in the Judical system. Which could result in the rest of the judges leaving Miginini to the wolves.
 
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All of which makes me wonder: How can a rational person still refuse to see reasonable doubt in the Knox case?

Ditto.

You think thats irrational, the perugian authorities spent 3 months of surveillance on a homeless guying selling Heroin. They spent 3 months of manned surveillance and tailing. There should have been all kinds of red flags about this guy.

1st: How does a homeless afford Heroin to sell.
2nd: If this guy can afford to deal Heroin, why doesn't he have a place to stay.
3rd: Why would they let this guy spend 3 months selling Heroin in public outside of the university.
4th: Someone posted the Demsey article at PMF, but the discussion on Saint Curatolo is complete silence. I figure soon they will be making excuses that he is framed or set up.
 
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Post deleted. Do not import arguments from other forums, even if they are posted by former, or even current JREF members. Go to their forum if you wish to discuss their posts.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
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Oh gawd, the danger of a very little knowledge...

This snark contibutes nothing to rational debate. However, it is an example of the tone of discourse that has driven many good posters away from this thread (or the JREF forum entirely).

This is just wrong. You've made two different things P. Let me help you out here.

I do not need your assistance. I can reason quite well on my own.

X = Knox was deliberately lying and she deliberately produced a statement that had all the characteristics we would expect to see in an internalised false confession.
P = Knox is far more knowledgeable about how police interrogations can go wrong than the vast majority of the public, and hence knows that internalised false confessions get people long prison sentences.
Q = Knox is a complete, barking idiot.

X -> P&Q

P and Q are not mutually exclusive, hence you can't call them P and -P.

It is sophistry to assert that being "far more knowledgable..." and being "a complete, barking idiot" are not in fact mutually exclusive.

If you want to set the actual argument I made in formal notation you need a bit more than first year content to do it and I'm sure it would bore and annoy non-mathematical readers so I will skip it. In informal terms the argument would be "If X is true then P and Q must also be true, but Q is very improbable, especially if P is true. Hence X is also very improbable".

I am not a trained logician. I do not care if you are one yourself. Regardless, your phrasing of your argument here is incorrect.

I won't bother pulling this apart in detail, it all falls over as soon as you get the initial equation right anyway.

You won't because you can't.

As previously noted, you evidently lack the ability to correctly identify a false dilemma in the first place.

I struggle for any response to this assertion which can not in essence be expressed as "no u". So I'll go with that for now.

No u.

No you didn't. You have not posted one scrap of evidence that her statement was not exactly what we would expect of an internalised false statement. This is because you have no such evidence, which in turn is because her statement as "internalised false statement" written all over it.

Yes I have. No it doesn't.

What you tried to do was resurrect the mole that Amanda Knox didn't fit the profile of the kind of person who would give an internalised false statement. However that mole was already hammered down: Knox was indeed the type,

Was she developmentally delayed? Was she mentally ill? Was she cognitively impaired? Did she have a poor memory? Did she exhibit low self-esteem? Did she exhibit a lack of assertiveness? Was she a juvenile?

and moreover people who aren't the type can and do make internalised false statements sometimes.

At an even lower rate of frequency, which should incline a rational observer to assign an even lower likelihood of this being the case in regards to Knox.
 
This is like having an argument with someone who doesn't know the meaning of most of the words they are using, but won't admit that their lack of language skills is a problem.

Again with the contentless snark. Is it possible for you to reply to a post from someone with whom you disagree without doing this?

Improbable claims require proportionately strong evidence, okay? However proportionately strong evidence is not impossible to find, or even that hard in some cases. If there is only a one in a thousand chance of seeing an orange-headed duck at my local pond, but I get clear video footage of an orange-headed duck, boom, claim supported. The p=0.001 chance of me having seen a duck (knowing nothing at all except that I went to the pond) is now a p=0.99 or similar chance, depending on how likely you think I am to have gone to extraordinary lengths to have faked the footage.

No, this is not proper skeptical enquiry. If the video is of, let us say, a white-headed duck which is observed at a rate of 30% or 50% within a given population, then a simple video of said duck would suffice as evidence for a rational observer to conclude that you more than likely did see a white-headed duck. However, at your rate of one-in-a-thousand for orange-headed ducks, if you produce a video which purports to show one, a rational observer is going to demand more information before concluding that an orange-headed duck is actually what you saw. Was there possibly a lens artifact? Was there some peculiar lighting at the time? Is it fact orange paint, not plumage, which is observed? Has the video been altered in any way? And so on.

So saying "Well, internalised false confessions aren't that common, therefore you can't be a skeptic and think this is an internalised false confession" is manifestly foolish. If I knew absolutely nothing about the case except that Knox confessed, and I knew no details about the confession, yes it would be an unsupported belief. If I know a lot about it, then it can be (and is) a thoroughly supported belief.

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that: 1) internalized false confessions are rare, 2) her statements do not even satisfy all the criteria which scientists observe in actual internalized confessions.

Moreover, I also know quite a bit about the case and base my judgments of whether her statements are genuine internalized confessions upon that knowledge as well. I disagree with you about most of your interpretations of the facts of this case, but I will at least recognize that you are knowledgable about the case. I would appreciate the same consideration.

Further you are trying to compare apples to oranges. Internalised false confessions are rare but there are no shortage of documented examples. That makes them orders of magnitude more likely than Mignini's theory which is, as you say, unprecedented.

"No shortage of documented examples?"

from Leo:

"... only a small number of alleged false confessions contain the independent case evidence or circumstances that allow the confessor to prove his innocence beyond dispute. Nevertheless, researchers have documented approximately 300 proven false confessions in recent decades."

300 cases out of a universe of how many interrogations? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

And I did not assert that Mignini's theory was "unprecedented". I have previously noted on more than one occasion that this is a ridiculous, unfounded claim.

Lastly, you need to bear in mind that this is a court case where the prosecution has the burden of providing proof beyond reasonable doubt. If the best you can say about the prosecution case is that it's possible but wildly unlikely, it can't support a justified conviction. You need at least p>0.9, even if your standards for a conviction are Lionking low.

This is nonsense. There is no court in the world that would instruct its jury members to formulate a guilt probability beyond an arbitrary numerical percentage.

We already said this - the police told her that the trauma of the event gave her amnesia. It's a common pop psychological idea that this can happen, hence quite likely to be satisfactory to Amanda in the relevant sense if delivered by an authority figure. What's the problem?

Yes - they told her it was the trauma of the event. And she did not contradict them or offer any other explanation for her selective amnesia.
 
from Leo:

"... only a small number of alleged false confessions contain the independent case evidence or circumstances that allow the confessor to prove his innocence beyond dispute. Nevertheless, researchers have documented approximately 300 proven false confessions in recent decades."

300 cases out of a universe of how many interrogations? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

What is your larger point? Everyone agrees that Amanda's statements are factually untrue. Therefore, whether one considers these statements to be an internalized false confession or a calculated attempt to deceive, they do not prove anything in connection with the murder of Meredith Kercher.
 
Kevin, how can we tell the difference between a lie and and an internalized false accusation?

Well, when I asked him essentially the same question, he replied:

"Actually it's perfectly feasible to falsify claims of temporary amnesia. People's reaction times are different when they are dealing with things they are familiar with, and this is reliably detectable. This is how we know that people with "multiple personality disorder" who claim not to remember what their "alternate personalities" did are bunging it on."

So I'm sure if you just check the results of the independent investigation into Knox's reaction times during her questioning you'll have all the proof you need. Assuming you can find these purported results, that is...
 
Wow. Who would think Mr "credible credibilissimo" Curatolo will fall into such troubles.
Do we have any confirmation yet apart from that single Corriere dell'Umbria note?
 
What is your larger point? Everyone agrees that Amanda's statements are factually untrue. Therefore, whether one considers these statements to be an internalized false confession or a calculated attempt to deceive, they do not prove anything in connection with the murder of Meredith Kercher.

For most rational observers, deliberately lying to the police during the investigation of a murder is going to be taken as an indicator that the subject is more knowledgeable about said murder than they are explicitly stating to be the case, or might well be possibly involved in the commission of said murder.
 
For most rational observers, deliberately lying to the police during the investigation of a murder is going to be taken as an indicator that the subject is more knowledgeable about said murder than they are explicitly stating to be the case, or might well be possibly involved in the commission of said murder.

Its funny you should say deliberate considering there is no evidence that Knox deliberately lied. The only evidence Knox implicated Patrick is a statement the police had knox sign. There apparently is no recording of the interrogation that led up to a police manufactured statement that was prepared for knox to sign.
 
For most rational observers, deliberately lying to the police during the investigation of a murder is going to be taken as an indicator that the subject is more knowledgeable about said murder than they are explicitly stating to be the case, or might well be possibly involved in the commission of said murder.

When the police deliberately lie to suspects and the press during the investigation of a serious crime, what does that indicate?
 
presumption of innocence

Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for response to modded post.
 
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