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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Someone encouraged or asked or offered Curatolo a deal to give false testimony that he saw Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the car park close to the basket ball court on the night of 1/11/2007.
Today or yesterday Curatolo was in court on a charge relating to 2003,on all the forums that I read about this case nobody new anything about this charge until today,it has come as a surprise to everybody
It appears to me that there is a group of policemen in Perugia and at least one Prosecuter who is trying to damage the deranged fantasy case of Mignini's as to how Meredith Kercher died.

I sure would hate to be the one who facilitated Curatolo's perjury and be depending on him not to talk as he faces prison,
 
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A small point related to the prosecution of Sig. Curatolo:

Some people may have wondered whether the length of time between the alleged offence (spring/summer 2003) and the prosecution of the crime (late 2010/early 2011) might have meant that the crime happened too long ago to be prosecuted now (i.e. whether the statute of limitations had been reached for this crime).

Well, the short answer is that for this crime, Italy is seemingly still well within its statute of limitations. The Italian code of criminal procedure states that the statute for criminal acts is limited to a period of time equalling the maximum incarceration penalty for that particular crime (but for serious crimes, this period cannot be less than six years).

I can't immediately put my fingers on the maximum prison sentence for dealing heroin in the amounts alleged in the Curatolo case. However, there's plenty of information available on the maximum sentence for dealing cannabis: up to 6 years' imprisonment.

And given that in the UK the maximum prison sentence for cannabis dealing is 14 years, but the maximum for heroin dealing is life, it's extremely fair to suppose that the maximum penalty for heroin dealing in Italy is at least 10 years in prison. So, if that supposition is accurate, then the statute of limitations for heroin dealing is also at least 10 years. Meaning that the prosecutors would have had until at least mid-2013 to bring charges against Curatolo.

Hope that clears things up a little.

It is interesting timing. It seem pretty obvious that they sat on this for awhile. The question is why. Did Curatolo provide them information in exchange for them delaying his prosecution? Did they get him to "help" with other cases they were working on? Do they now feel his usefulness is at and end and believe the appeals court is not going to buy in to his story? Or did somebody decide to throw him under the bus and absorb some of the blame? Or does it really take 7 or 8 years to get around to prosecuting him? When was he initially questioned about this and who did his questioning? Is the prosecution obligated to let the defense know of a pending case against one of their witnesses?
 
Someone encouraged or asked or offered Curatolo a deal to give false testimony that he saw Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in the car park close to the basket ball court on the night of 1/11/2007.
Today or yesterday Curatolo was in court on a charge relating to 2003,on all the forums that I read about this case nobody new anything about this charge until today,it has come as a surprise to everybody
It appears to me that there is a group of policemen in Perugia and at least one Prosecuter who is trying to damage the deranged fantasy case of Mignini's as to how Meredith Kercher died.

I sure would hate to be the one who facilitated Curatolo's perjury and be depending on him not to talk as he faces prison,

I doubt anyone had to suborn perjury from Curatolo, I bet he provided it of his own free will, and probably even believes it himself now. It's his 'place' in the community, I'd guess. It makes him a man who puts away murderers, as opposed to just a bum occupying a bench for ten years.
 
It is interesting timing. It seem pretty obvious that they sat on this for awhile. The question is why. Did Curatolo provide them information in exchange for them delaying his prosecution? Did they get him to "help" with other cases they were working on? Do they now feel his usefulness is at and end and believe the appeals court is not going to buy in to his story? Or did somebody decide to throw him under the bus and absorb some of the blame? Or does it really take 7 or 8 years to get around to prosecuting him? When was he initially questioned about this and who did his questioning? Is the prosecution obligated to let the defense know of a pending case against one of their witnesses?

The other interesting angle in this is that the investigation against Curatolo appears to have been conducted by the Carabinieri - who have a long-standing rivalry with the state police (and who tend to look down on the state police as "plods"). I wonder if the Carabinieri - perhaps in conjunction with their own "preferred" prosecutor in Perugia - have chosen this issue to expose the state police apparatus?

Just an idle thought.
 
The other interesting angle in this is that the investigation against Curatolo appears to have been conducted by the Carabinieri - who have a long-standing rivalry with the state police (and who tend to look down on the state police as "plods"). I wonder if the Carabinieri - perhaps in conjunction with their own "preferred" prosecutor in Perugia - have chosen this issue to expose the state police apparatus?

Just an idle thought.

I recall thinking a while back and almost making a post about it, just how many powerful people and institutions Mignini has pissed off recently. One of them, I was thinking, might be the Carabinieri whom Raffaele's sister was a member of and who'd lost her position because of her brother's arrest and conviction, and above that I do believe she was one of the ones Mignini slapped one of those suits on.

I can't help but wonder if there might be others in a close-knit group like I've heard them described, almost like an elite military unit, that might not take kindly to the treatment of their sister. They might be disinclined to believe that she could be related to a cold-blooded murderer, and perhaps being law enforcement can easily see just what happened in this case.
 
The other interesting angle in this is that the investigation against Curatolo appears to have been conducted by the Carabinieri - who have a long-standing rivalry with the state police (and who tend to look down on the state police as "plods"). I wonder if the Carabinieri - perhaps in conjunction with their own "preferred" prosecutor in Perugia - have chosen this issue to expose the state police apparatus?

Just an idle thought.

The Carabinieri investigated the crime alright,but it was surely a prosecutor from the same prosecutorial office as Mignini who decided to indict at this time,"keep your enemies close but keep your friends closer still"having done nothing since 2003, eight years

Curatolo was interview by a local Umbrian reporter who encouraged him to go straight to Mignini with his lies,I wonder would some of the PMFers who post here be able to unearth the level of friendship between Mignini and that reporter, they were after all experts on finding out and developing the almost non existent relationship between Amanda and Rudy,not so much in terms of cannabis smoked but more in terms of the number of witnesses that same reporter has provided for Mignini from the ranks of the homeless and the hard drug dealers
 
Massei and Cristiani's answers to Kevin's questions, part 2

Continuation of my previous post. Once again, page numbers refer to the original Italian document.

[*]Do you acknowledge that Amanda's DNA on the "double DNA" knife proves absolutely nothing regarding her guilt or innocence, because it could have been deposited on the handle by completely innocent means? If not, why not?

I assume they would, their focus being (correctly) on Meredith's DNA on the blade.

[*]Do you acknowledge that Amanda's DNA mixed with Meredith's blood found in the house proves absolutely nothing, because it could have been deposited by completely innocent means before Meredith's death? If not, why not?

Believe it or not, Massei and Cristiani do not even make any argument against Amanda's DNA having been deposited innocently (other than to note that Amanda described the bathroom as "clean" before Nov 2). They simply state that they don't find it plausible and proceed to describe how they think the findings are consistent with guilt, not bothering to explain why they aren't also consistent with innocence. I'm not making this up. They do this both times they (redundantly) discuss this, pp. 301-303 and pp. 405-408.

(I'm reminded of Stefanoni's curt "not in the context of a homicide" answer to whether such traces could be innocent -- reported uncritically by Barbie Nadeau as if it were supposed to settle the issue.)

[*]Do you acknowledge that without this DNA evidence, absolutely no forensic evidence links Amanda to Meredith's murder at all?

They think it amounts to a lot, so presumably wouldn't have trouble acknowledging this.

[*]What hard evidence do you have that there was a staged break-in given that we have Filomena's statement that there was glass on the floor of her room as well as on top of her clothes? The fact that nothing was stolen from this room is not evidence of a staged break-in, the lack of fingerprints or DNA from Rudy in that room is in no way unusual even if he did search the room without gloves, and the unsupported word of police who did not document their observations is not hard evidence.

While it doesn't directly answer the question, I can't resist quoting this richly contorted example of special pleading by our authors (pp. 41-43):

A final point to be recalled concerns the presence, noted and reported by more than one witness, of glass framents on top of objects and clothing in Romanelli's room.

This circumstance, also suggestive of staging -- albeit not decisive since nothing rules out the possibility of the imaginary thief having first broken the glass and then making a mess in the room -- has been disputed by the attorneys for the defendants on the basis of the photos which do not document the presence of glass on clothing and displaced objects in Romanelli's room, and the principle [rilievo] that the evidentiary value and precision of a photograph [il valore documentale e di cristallizzazione di una determinata situazione realizzata da foto] should prevail over statements of witnesses about their recollection [dichiarazioni testimoniali affidate al ricordo].

This is a notion which, though attractive, does not appear sustainable [accoglibile] since it does not take into account the chronological succession of events. We find Romanelli's deposition to be significant and a refutation of the supposed contrast between the documentary evidence (i.e. the photos from Romanelli's room which do not show pieces of glass on top the clothing and displaced objects) and the testimony. In the examination of 2-7-2009 itself, she recalled having left her computer in its case "upright, not lying down" (p.269) and then, when she re-entered the house she saw that the window was broken in her room and "everything was out in the open" (p.40). She checked for jewelry, saw that it was there, and looked for the comptuer which she glimpsed "from below" (p.40) and, continuing to explain, she stated that "in picking up the computer, I noticed that I was lifting pieces of glass, in the sense that the pieces of glass were on top of things" (p.41) and the circumstance was striking enough to her at that moment to the point of being the subject of a specific remark: "it was a stupid burglar; besides the fact that nothing was taken, the pieces of glass were also on top of things" (p.41). Then, in addition to this vivid memory, the witness also reported entering her room and looking to see if anything was missing, and in the process also moved objects, thereby modifying the location of the glass fragments. At that moment, of course, only the Postal Police were present, looking for the reason for which two phones were found in the garden of a house on Via Sperandio, and the broken glass of a window, merely suggested a burglary that was entirely independent of the finding of the two phones; it thus appeared entirely normal and almost automatic that one would go into the room where the window was broken, without any caution, with one's attention being focused only on seeing what was missing. The displacement of the objects and the gradual alteration of the situation in Romanelli's room with respect to the pieces of glass (which, found on top of objects, ended up falling and being shifted in the searching activity that one can imagine Romanelli performing with a certain agitation and anxiety on account of the state of concern and disturbance she found herself in) was therefore natural. The photos, however, where taken only afterward, around 3:00 pm according to what may be inferred from the statements of the forensic investigators [personale della scientifica] of the Perugia Questura, Cantagalli and Brocci, when the discovery of the lifeless body of Meredith imposed a different set of concerns [una diversa circospezione]: the necessity of preserving the situation, avoiding any alteration of the same, and of acquiring every piece of evidence that could turn out to be useful to the investigation.

The time at which the witnesses noticed the presence of glass on objects is thus distinct from the time at which every detail of the house and its surroundings was photographed and in some sense preserved.

[*]Do you acknowledge that the available evidence regarding the potential entry to the house via the window fits equally well or better with Hendry's theory that Rudy manually widened the hole in the glass after the initial throw, and placed the glass chunks he removed on the sill as he did so, when compared with Massei's theory? Hendry's theory explains the glass inside the room and the glass outside on the sill perfectly well. Massei's theory does not explain the glass on the sill.

Here's Massei and Cristiani on the matter of the glass on the sill (p.39):

Additionally, the fragments of broken glass were scattered in a homogeneous manner on the internal and external windowsill, without any noticeable displacement and without any piece of glass being found on the surface below the window. This circumstance, also confirmed by Mr. Pasquali, rules out the possibility that the stone was thrown from outside the house to allow access inside via the window after the glass was broken. The climber, in leaning his hands and then his feet or knees on the windowsill, would have caused some of the glass to fall, or at least would have had to move some of the pieces lest they form a trap and cause injury. However, no piece of glass was found under the window and no sign of injury was discovered on the glass found in Romanelli's room.

It should also be observed how the presence of numerous pieces of glass on the external windowsill would have also rendered plausible the presence of some fragments on the ground underneath, there being no reason why so many pieces of glass should have all come to rest on the external sill without crossing the edge and falling to the surface below. This situation, like all the other patent incongruities discussed so far, is however adequately and satisfactorily resolved by hypothesizing that the rock was thrown from the inside of the bedroom with the two shutters closed toward the inside, thereby forming a shield [riparo] and impeding the fall of the glass fragments to the surface underneath; once the glass was broken from the inside, the rock could be put in part of the room and the shutters could be pushed outward and thus opened from inside the room.

[*]How do you explain the scuff marks on the wall below Filomena's window, the freshly-made holes in the wall below Filomena's window consistent with nails being there which someone knocked out in the process of climbing the wall, and the white powdery substance found on clothes on the floor in Filomena's room consistent with someone's foot having scuffed the white surface of the wall? (See previous link for photographs). How do you explain that police claimed that there was absolutely no sign of anyone climbing the wall yet we can clearly see these signs in photographs, if the police are not untrustworthy witnesses? There are additional photographs showing the white powdery substance on dark objects on the floor of Filomena's room here. You can certainly argue that they do not add up to conclusive proof somebody climbed that wall and walked around in Filomena's room, but it is not credible to argue that they do not raise reasonable doubt about the Massei narrative where the break-in was totally staged.

Massei and Cristiani, needless to say, do not address these points in the report (beyond what was quoted above about the unreliability of photographic evidence!).

[*]Do you acknowledge that the police destroyed the evidence, in the form of the Spotlight metadata for Stardust on Raffaele's computer, which could potentially have confirmed their alibi, that they were at home at the prosecution's alleged time of death?

This is not acknowledged in the report. In fact, regarding the other computers examined, we have the following highly suspicious passage (p.322):

The devices were unsealed and had already been subjected to analysis [rilievo] by the scientific police. They were perfectly assembled...and nothing in their external appearance allowed one to foresee that three of them would not work.

This is so far as I know the closest thing to any acknowledgement by Massei and Cristiani that the police destroyed Amanda's hard drive.

[*]Finally, doesn't it ever strike you as weird that Mignini "figured out" that this was a once-in-history three-way sex crime (where relative strangers ganged up on one of their housemates) more or less on sight, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that theory? Isn't it just a bit convenient that when absolutely all the forensic evidence failed to confirm his theory, miraculous and unreproducible LCN DNA evidence gathered at the eleventh hour popped up out of Stefanoni's lab to save his theory, but they refuse to show their raw data or their log files? Isn't it cause for concern that the best evidence for the prosecution can't be reproduced and they refuse to show their work, and that the vital piece of evidence that could have confirmed Amanda and Raffaele's alibis (the Spotlight data for Stardust) was destroyed by police?

Apparently not.
 
What was the recent quote from Mignini about Curatolo? Glad you asked, Rose.


The prosecutor Giuliano Mignini called the homeless "One of the key points and most important of the evidence. Credible credibilissimo absolute trustworthiness and reliability of ... ... proof, full circle, full stop. "

I know you've probably seen this, but for everyone else here's Frank at Perugia Shock:

Frank Sfarzo said...

'Frank, what do you make of the news about Curatolo?'

I remember long time ago, when I asked Mignini 'Do you know what is Curatolo's job?'

He didn't know he was in the drugs...

And many naive people fall for a romantic vision of the bum...

January 12, 2011 12:31 PM
 
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There is no "concept of being assumed guilty before being tried" in Italy. That's just propaganda. Why do you make up such nonsense?

My post was intended to show that outside observers might object to the lax application of the "presumption of innocence" standard in Amanda's case, and complain about it. This is why I think Girlanda chose the topic of the photo, and to address it in a public forum -- because it would be likely to make onlookers prick up their ears.

As the translation komponisto provided shows, how Italy's actions in this case have been perceived by outside observers is at issue: "...the video in question was translated and distributed in the United States, feeding, not without reason, the accusations against our country that he represented the three defendants in the process of Perugia only a U.S. citizen, on remand, however, to accompany the best-known recipients of mafia bosses who have been convicted in numerous life sentences..."
 
It is interesting timing. It seem pretty obvious that they sat on this for awhile. The question is why. Did Curatolo provide them information in exchange for them delaying his prosecution? Did they get him to "help" with other cases they were working on? Do they now feel his usefulness is at and end and believe the appeals court is not going to buy in to his story? Or did somebody decide to throw him under the bus and absorb some of the blame? Or does it really take 7 or 8 years to get around to prosecuting him? When was he initially questioned about this and who did his questioning? Is the prosecution obligated to let the defense know of a pending case against one of their witnesses?


It's just like you predicted on Perugia Shock, Rose -- Curatolo and Stefanoni will take the fall. The perps are beginning to realize their days are numbered, and they are setting up a scenario to show how they were misled by people they thought they could trust.

To see Rose's previous excellent comments about this:

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7877520352483689941&postID=3304771242650295677
 
It's just like you predicted on Perugia Shock, Rose -- Curatolo and Stefanoni will take the fall. The perps are beginning to realize their days are numbered, and they are setting up a scenario to show how they were misled by people they thought they could trust.

To see Rose's previous excellent comments about this:

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7877520352483689941&postID=3304771242650295677

Yes Mary, Rose is very wise. She should be the author of her own blog.

Perugia Shock has a new post up. It is an educational read.
 
You seem very comfortable stating from your armchair the opposite. Clint Van Zandt was there and he said this;

"I’ve stood below the broken window and believe it could have been too high off the ground to have been a point of entry by an intruder."

Argument from authority? Evidence trumps authority. We know for a fact that the sill would have been armpit-high on Rudy Guede and that an only moderately fit, thin young man can easily get up to an armpit-high ledge.

Note also that none of the judges trying this case believed that there was any difficulty in the climb - that idea is mere guilter fanfic. Massei argued that it would be too much trouble, but he never argued that it would present any serious physical difficulty to a fit young man.

This, like the idea that a real burglar would have attacked the rear door, is just something that the pro-guilt community have embroidered up themselves and sewn on to the actual prosecution case. I don't think they really keep track any more what was actually argued in court and what they make up for themselves, despite the occasional claim that only ideas which have been tried in court count.

That's utter nonsense. It implies an incongruous similarity in thinking between the calm analytical reasoning process a cat burglar would engage in when walking around a premises to stake out his best point of entry and the frantic reasoning two inexperienced people would engage in when attempting to cover their tracks after just murdering someone. Nothing similar there.

It would help if you respond to what I actually said, instead of responding to something only vaguely similar that suits you much better.

I did not argue that if a cat burglar would not break in that way then a pair of inexperienced criminals would not fake a break-in that way.

What I did argue was that if it was really so staggeringly obvious that nobody would ever break in that way that the collection of random civilians with no relevant experience making up the PMF/TJMK communities could all see it based only on cherry-picked photographs and confirmation bias, then anyone with a functioning brain who was actually on the scene would see that as well.

I conclude from this that if it really is an implausible entry point that this is much, much less obvious than they tell themselves it is, because the police and alleged stagers didn't notice the implausibility. I also conclude that the evidence does not support the claim that it was an implausible entry point.
 
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Maybe you can read what has already been posted, and then present an equally informed and relevant response, possibly citing novel sources, bringing us new insights into the case or summarising the important points for the benefit of newcomers?

Well I've read it all and I didn't see how anyone can tell an induced false accusation from a simple lie so maybe you could provide a link to a post that answers that question.

Just did a JREF search and a Google search and came up empty on any answer to my question.

Congratulations on your promotion to style moderator here at JREF.
 
Well I've read it all and I didn't see how anyone can tell an induced false accusation from a simple lie so maybe you could provide a link to a post that answers that question.

Just did a JREF search and a Google search and came up empty on any answer to my question.

Congratulations on your promotion to style moderator here at JREF.

Please don't misunderstand, you are absolutely at liberty to contribute as little as you wish to the thread. Nobody is saying that you have to lift a finger, and there is nothing in the Membership Agreement that says you can't spend an entire six hundred page thread sniping at minor errors, making unsupported assertions which you do not defend, and saying that maybe other people might do all your work for you.

By the same token, I am at liberty to repeat what I said earlier:

Maybe you can read what has already been posted, and then present an equally informed and relevant response, possibly citing novel sources, bringing us new insights into the case or summarising the important points for the benefit of newcomers? If you have read it all and still do not understand it then maybe you can quote the posts that contain the bits you do not understand and ask for clarification on the specific points you are having trouble with?
 
My post was intended to show that outside observers might object to the lax application of the "presumption of innocence" standard in Amanda's case, and complain about it. This is why I think Girlanda chose the topic of the photo, and to address it in a public forum -- because it would be likely to make onlookers prick up their ears.

As the translation komponisto provided shows, how Italy's actions in this case have been perceived by outside observers is at issue: "...the video in question was translated and distributed in the United States, feeding, not without reason, the accusations against our country that he represented the three defendants in the process of Perugia only a U.S. citizen, on remand, however, to accompany the best-known recipients of mafia bosses who have been convicted in numerous life sentences..."

The point about presumption of innocence is a valid one (one only has to read Massei and Cristiani, who blatantly presume guilt throughout their 427-page exercise in wrongness), but I can't take credit for the translation of Girlanda's questionnaire. :)
 
tsig said:
Well I've read it all and I didn't see how anyone can tell an induced false accusation from a simple lie so maybe you could provide a link to a post that answers that question.

Perhaps someone else can dig up the specific post, but I recall someone (perhaps Kevin) listing criteria such as the following: vagueness, confusion, conformity with police theories, and later retraction.

I believe it was also suggested that the contrast between Knox's statement and Guede's "bushy-haired stranger" story serves as an illustration of the difference.
 
Well I've read it all and I didn't see how anyone can tell an induced false accusation from a simple lie so maybe you could provide a link to a post that answers that question.

I thought that was handled quite adroitly by noting that anyone with enough knowledge of what an internalized false confession is to be able to 'fake' it as well as she did, would be clever enough never to try one because odds are it would put them away for a long time.

However, "a simple lie" raises something I've never been able to get a real answer on. How do you, in your mind, go from 'confessing' to being in another room cowering with ears covered while Patrick Lumumba rapes and murders Meredith, to having it really mean she was actually directing the rape and murder of Meredith with Rudy and Raffaele?

With no real evidence to support any of that, outside the fact Rudy Guede was obviously in Meredith's bedroom when or shortly after she was murdered. How do the rest of the mental gymnastics go that allow for that 'confession' to be a 'blank check' that makes her entirely culpable in the murder despite the lack of evidence she had anything to do with it?
 
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