Is violent political rhetoric and imagery incitement?

[DavidJames]

I am thinking to myself in other countries they are laughing at us twenty four hours a day and I’m thinking to myself if we were in other countries, we would all right now, all of us together, all of us together would go down to Washington and we would stone Henry Hyde to death! We would stone him to death! Wait! Shut up! Shut up! No shut up! I’m not finished. We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we’d kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families. What is happening in this country? What is happening?
- Actor/Activist Alec Baldwin, in an appearance on Conan O'Brien in 1998

I condemn the violent hate speech commonly used by the liberal left. Calling for the assassination of political opponents and the murder of their families is par for the course in Somalia, Venezuela and Saddam Era Iraq, but not in the worlds oldest modern democracy.

Why are Republicans so fascinated with what actors think? I guess with Cicero gone, someone has to pick up the mantle.

 

[WildCat]

Once again, I shall ask you:

do you ever read all the posts of a thread..including the ones that say:

"actually, that element is not clear".

or did you indeed read that..and are just trolling?

I think it's pretty clear that you just made it up.

 

[eeyore1954]

yes

OK not that you need my OK

 

[eeyore1954]

I think it's pretty clear that you just made it up.

I actually think someone else made it up in the long thread or more likely misred what the ad/flyer or whatever it was said. The probable reason being they read the flyer to mean shoot at a picture of her is because they is what they wanted it to say or they believe thats what tea party people are really like or both. Probably why Thunder was so quick to believe it also.

Of course it is possible that there actually was a fundraiser that people did shoot an AK-47 at her picture.

 

[johnny karate]

Not to add fuel to the tu quoque fire - and I am on record stating that Palin should not be blamed for Loughner's actions - but I find it curious that there are equivalencies being made between the actions of one of the most prominent figures in conservative politics and those of random people at a rally, or what some actor said in a 12 year-old interview.

Completely independent of this weekend's tragic events, isn't it fair to expect a certain level or discourse and responsibility of people in positions of power?

I don't like Sarah Palin. I don't like her politics. But I absolutely defend her right to say what she wants.

What I don't defend is her right to avoid the consequences of saying what she wants.

Attempts to link her to Loughner's actions may be misguided and unfounded, but Palin is a professional pot-stirrer, and when you say and do inflammatory things, somethimes there's blowback.

She may be catching a lot of unjustified flak right now, but I don't shed a single tear for her because of it.

 

[Ziggurat]

She may be catching a lot of unjustified flak right now, but I don't shed a single tear for her because of it.

These ridiculous blame games shouldn't be fought because they hurt Palin unfairly, they should be fought because they corrupt our public discourse. Bad logic should be opposed on principle. And make no mistake, there is a lot of terrible logic on display here by folks like Thunder. I'm afraid I can't claim originality here, but this really is the underpants gnome argument:

1: Sarah Palin publishes a map.
2: ?
3: Gunfire.

And it extends beyond politicians too. If violence is attributed to such truly mild speech, what do you think the logical consequences are going to be for video games, or TV, or movies, or even books? It's like the liberal version of those fundies who thought D&D would lead to witchcraft.

 

[Dancing David]

I feel it is unwise in many acses but not incitement. Specifically Palin's acts are not incitement, unwise in hind site.

Such levels of discourse are very close at times, but even Beck knows where to reign it in.

 

[Thunder]

I think it's pretty clear that you just made it up.

I think its pretty clear you have no evidence for that...and are now just simply trolling.

 

[Walter Ego]

I am thinking to myself in other countries they are laughing at us twenty four hours a day and I’m thinking to myself if we were in other countries, we would all right now, all of us together, all of us together would go down to Washington and we would stone Henry Hyde to death! We would stone him to death! Wait! Shut up! Shut up! No shut up! I’m not finished. We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we’d kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families. What is happening in this country? What is happening?
- Actor/Activist Alec Baldwin, in an appearance on Conan O'Brien in 1998

I condemn the violent hate speech commonly used by the liberal left. Calling for the assassination of political opponents and the murder of their families is par for the course in Somalia, Venezuela and Saddam Era Iraq, but not in the worlds oldest modern democracy.

So we should care what lefty actors (or right-wing actors for that matter) say on late-night talks shows ? Can you give an example of a liberal candidate or elected liberal official saying anything remotely similar?

 

[Walter Ego]

Why are Republicans so fascinated with what actors lefty-liberal actors think? I guess with Cicero gone, someone has to pick up the mantle.

Fixed that for you.

 

[johnny karate]

These ridiculous blame games shouldn't be fought because they hurt Palin unfairly, they should be fought because they corrupt our public discourse. Bad logic should be opposed on principle.

Well, in my crusade to fight bad logic, unhoisting Palin from her own petard is pretty far down the list. She did something with the intent to generate ire and controversy, and now it's biting her in the hind quarters. That the backlash is perhaps unjustified is secondary to the fact that she courted it.

And it extends beyond politicians too. If violence is attributed to such truly mild speech, what do you think the logical consequences are going to be for video games, or TV, or movies, or even books? It's like the liberal version of those fundies who thought D&D would lead to witchcraft.

The difference being that violence in media is typically non-specific. Palin, on the other hand, had a graphic on her website that featured specific politicians with crosshairs over their names. Tragically, one of those politicians was gunned down. That some people would draw a connection - no matter how unfounded - is to be expected.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

So we should care what lefty actors (or right-wing actors for that matter) say on late-night talks shows ?

I assume we should care for the same reasons (whatever the hell they may be) that people care about completely harmless statements made by right-wing reality TV stars.

Palin and Baldwin are essentially identical. They are both politically active TV personalities, neither of whom currently holds elective office. The difference between Palin and Baldwin is that Palins comments on her blog are understood by non-crazy people as meaning "vote them out of office". Whereas Baldwin said "we should murder republican congressmen, their wives and children" and what Baldwin meant by this is that "we should murder them, their wives and children".

 

[Thunder]

I Whereas Baldwin said "we should murder republican congressmen, their wives and children"

source please.

oh, now I see. although no where did Alec Baldwin say "Republican Congressmen".

did you think folks would miss this lie of yours? not cool man.

 

[Thunder]

I think it's pretty clear that you just made it up.

this is the 2nd time you have recently accused me of lieing, even though you have no evidence to prove it.

pathetic.

 

[DavidJames]

Palin and Baldwin are essentially identical. They are both politically active TV personalities, neither of whom currently holds elective office.

Wow, just wow.

The most recent Republican VP candidate. One of the leading candidates for the next presidential election. One of the main voices of the Tea Party who has personally taken credit for most of the recent success of Tea Party supported candidates in the last election is the same, in your mind, as an actor, based on what he said 12 years ago.

I'm not sure there has been a political stundie, but this is one you earned.

 

[Ziggurat]

Well, in my crusade to fight bad logic, unhoisting Palin from her own petard is pretty far down the list.

Again, this isn't about protecting Palin. I could give a damn about Palin. It's about whether or not scapegoating is acceptable. That you don't mind the target of the scapegoating getting trashed is irrelevant. Or rather, it should be.

She did something with the intent to generate ire and controversy

She did what is STANDARD in politics: you focus resources on the districts you think you can win, ie, you TARGET them. And she's hardly alone. Hell, she's not even alone in using targets on a map.

That the backlash is perhaps unjustified is secondary to the fact that she courted it.

No, it really isn't secondary. And it's not secondary because she doesn't matter next to keeping public debate rational. You cannot claim to want rational debate but only object when irrationality produces effects you don't like. If you want to be anything other than just a partisan hack, you need to object to this kind of crap even if it attacks people or positions you don't like.

The difference being that violence in media is typically non-specific.

Not always.

Palin, on the other hand, had a graphic on her website that featured specific politicians with crosshairs over their names.

So did the democrats. It's standard political jargon. It has ALWAYS been understood to mean something other than violence.

The graphic Palin had on her website did NOT have crosshairs over politicians names, it had crosshairs over their DISTRICT. On a map. Just like those links above had targets on a map. And in fact it wasn't even crosshairs, it was actually crop marks, which come from printing. This is a crosshair over a politician. And not just his name, but his body. Where's the outrage? There is none, because it was a democrat.

Tragically, one of those politicians was gunned down. That some people would draw a connection - no matter how unfounded - is to be expected.

Yes, it's expected that so people will act stupid. And they should be criticized for doing so. Especially when they're so hypocritical about it.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

source please.

oh, now I see. although no where did Alec Baldwin say "Republican Congressmen".

did you think folks would miss this lie of yours? not cool man.

You are the liar here, parky.

Here is the post you are referring to.

I am thinking to myself in other countries they are laughing at us twenty four hours a day and I’m thinking to myself if we were in other countries, we would all right now, all of us together, all of us together would go down to Washington and we would stone Henry Hyde to death! We would stone him to death! Wait! Shut up! Shut up! No shut up! I’m not finished. We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we’d kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families. What is happening in this country? What is happening?
- Actor/Activist Alec Baldwin, in an appearance on Conan O'Brien in 1998

I condemn the violent hate speech commonly used by the liberal left. Calling for the assassination of political opponents and the murder of their families is par for the course in Somalia, Venezuela and Saddam Era Iraq, but not in the worlds oldest modern democracy.

Copy, google, paste. Find out for yourself.

 

[Thunder]

You are the liar here, parky.
Here is the post you are referring to.
Copy, google, paste. Find out for yourself.

I shall remove the post and apologize to you in public, as soon as you show me where Alec Baldwin called for the murder of "Republican Congressmen".

Cause clearly, the quote you posted does NOT.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

So hers had pictures because she was "targeting" specific candidates she thought could be beat.
Could a crazy person take that to mean shoot someone , yes but so could the other graphic.

And so could a crush on a celebrity, rock lyrics, and classic works of literature.

And political races have always used this kind of language and imagery. Even mainstream media (nothing like Palin and her ilk) use words like "battle", "battleground", "rout", etc.

Even though I reject the idea that anything Palin or the Tea Partiers did or said was incitement for this act of violence, I do agree wholeheartedly with the following statement:

"I'll say this, if your first instinct after hearing about a tragedy is to scrub your websites, you have a problem as a political movement."

[Not an original quote, but I don't know the name of the person who originated it.]

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

And Charles Manson was inspired by a Beatles song.

Yup, that's what I had in mind the first time I mentioned blaming rock lyrics for violence. (I almost said something referring specifically to Helter Skelter, but then I decided to generalize it thinking of the lawsuit by the family of the kid who committed suicide trying to blame Judas Priest song lyrics.)

I heard about that Dylan-inspired killer in a strange way: in the early '90s (IIRC) I heard a news story that the guy was being allowed to take an out trip (from the penitentiary) to see Dylan perform. I only hope the story I heard omitted some very important point (like maybe it was part of some bizarre desensitization therapy) and that he wasn't being rewarded for good behavior!