Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

Skeptic Ginger said:
truethat said:
I don't think anyone is saying that he's not heard tea party rhetoric. Everyone in the country has by now. And some of us have considered some of what they say. Many liberals I know are in favor of stricter immigration laws and support the fourth amendment. But that doesn't make them tea partiers.

It is obvious this guy had major psychological issues. To push him into the tea party gang is irresponsible speculation.

In fact the Congresswoman was Jewish and he had Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books. Can we then say this was an Anti Semitic act?

It's just nonsense to speculate.
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Your post suggests you don't understand what I'm saying. There are two kinds of dangerous people the gun and fear metaphors are a danger because of. One is the extremist. That would be the guy you describe as "in the Tea Party gang".

I'm not saying that is this guy, or that is what the rhetoric triggered in this case. This guy was most likely an unstable paranoid schizophrenic. I'm saying the constant background noise as it would be in his case, promoted the kind of homicidal delusion in this guy's head that might not have happened without it.

I'm also saying that even if the rhetoric did not trigger the homicidal action, it still serves as a reminder what such rhetoric can do.
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If the Palin camp had the smarts to use language acknowledging how their rhetoric and campaign visuals such as "survey markers" might possibly have been sufficiently misinterpreted by fruitbaskets (such as the one in question) to incite them to violence, and to then express genuine reget for this... they might gain real leverage among quite a number of people.

Then again, were Jerry Springer to get up on stage and admit the whole thing was fake he'd be pelted with tomatoes by the faithful.
 
JoeyDonuts said:
I still say it is far too early in the investigation to draw a direct causal link between current right-wing political rhetoric coming from people like Sarah Palin and his actions.

It may very well be that he was influenced by them, but we don't know that for certain yet. A signed copy of 'Going Rogue' would have been telling, as would if he had printed out that poster from SarahPAC and had it up on his wall. But he didn't, so far as we know right now.

Hell, he's being branded as both a left-winger and a right-winger by both sides. I don't think he fit into any political camp. But we'll know more soon. The SPLC is following some leads on him that suggest he may have had ties to an extremist racist organization. But I want to see the extent and nature of his associations with such groups before I make up my opinion.

ETA: SmartyPants nailed it.
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this
 
Tricky said:
Obviously they were survey markers. After all, Palin is famous for surveying wolves from an airplane.
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err....I don't know. those really look like sniper crosshairs to me.

but what do I know, I'm just a city-slicker. :)
 
Tricky said:
Obviously they were survey markers. After all, Palin is famous for surveying wolves from the air.
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:)

(Not really the best smiley for the occasion, but I didn't know of a SLAM! sort of smiley or anything quite similar.)
 
tyr_13 said:
I almost want to compile a list of people/organizations/ideas people are trying to tie to this shooting. Palin, the NRA, Commies, 2nd Amendment, Nazis, etc, etc, etc...
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I haven't noticed anyone trying to tie this shooting to any organization. I've only seen the claim that violent rhetoric could possibly have made an irrational person believe that they might be viewed sympathetically rather than purely as a murderer if they assassinated certain political figures.
 
I'll be driving through the intersection next to where the shootings occurred tomorrow.

It'll be a strange feeling.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Your post suggests you don't understand what I'm saying. There are two kinds of dangerous people the gun and fear metaphors are a danger because of. One is the extremist. That would be the guy you describe as "in the Tea Party gang".

I'm not saying that is this guy, or that is what the rhetoric triggered in this case. This guy was most likely an unstable paranoid schizophrenic. I'm saying the constant background noise as it would be in his case, promoted the kind of homicidal delusion in this guy's head that might not have happened without it.

I'm also saying that even if the rhetoric did not trigger the homicidal action, it still serves as a reminder what such rhetoric can do.
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Exactly correct.


Regardless of whether the violent rhetoric used by Sarah Palin or Sharon Angle or any other politician on left or right actually triggered this guy's rampage, what good can come of it? It doesn't help, and it might hurt, a lot. Wouldn't we all just be better off without it?
 
Did the envelopes contain anything? I haven't heard anything about that.
 
babycondor said:
Quote:
"We have nothing whatsoever to do with this," Palin aide Rebecca Mansour told the talk radio host Tammy Bruce in an interview. "We never ever, ever intended it to be gun sights. It was simply cross-hairs like you'd see on maps," she said, suggesting that it is a "surveyor's symbol."

Methinks she doth protest too much.
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And "Don't retreat, reload" was obviously meant to be a washing machine metaphor.

Palin is only making it worse on herself with weaselly crap like this.
 
johnny karate said:
Palin is only making it worse on herself with weaselly crap like this.
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Not with her target demographic, she's not.

The Palinites I know have simply added this to the list of people and situations that are persecuting poor Sarah. They're circling the wagons, and I think the support for her won't take much of a hit because of this. Barring something happening, that is...
 
JoeyDonuts said:
Not with her target demographic, she's not.

The Palinites I know have simply added this to the list of people and situations that are persecuting poor Sarah. They're circling the wagons, and I think the support for her won't take much of a hit because of this. Barring something happening, that is...
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Exactly.

I expect Palin to go on the offensive as soon as she thinks it's possible. It might be Palin attacking the PC liberals trying to silence her free speech or she might try and link the murderer with Obama. Not directly, but the murderer was inevitable considering his moves to enable his socialist government to take over health care, bail outs, whatever.

Damn, and as I was typing I see the link above this was posted.
 
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I expect some right-wing demagogues may even suggest a Democratic inside-job, to attack the Tea-Party and Republicans.

likely? no.

possible? damn right.

the fact that the House was supposed to vote on repealing "Obamacare" this week, will certainly play into that.
 
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JoeyDonuts said:
Not with her target demographic, she's not.

The Palinites I know have simply added this to the list of people and situations that are persecuting poor Sarah. They're circling the wagons, and I think the support for her won't take much of a hit because of this. Barring something happening, that is...
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Gotta say I agree. At first I thought this would really damage her, but it looks like that because she has a such a devoted base, they're probably going to be even more vociferous in defending her. She won't add followers and probably never will, but this may only strengthen her base.
 
Accidental Martyr said:
Tea party group emails members urging them to describe shooter as "liberal lunatic."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x153766
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Clicked over to some AM radio to hear what was being said.

They're making a lot of comments about the sheriff's remarks, and painting him as a liberal because of the atheist link and the Communist Manifesto.

I've seen a lot of FB posts from friends today pegging him as a right-wing for a number of reasons.

Taken on the whole, I think it's clear -at this stage anyway, to whatever extent that is possible - that he was something else entirely. A disconnected sociopath with all of the right ingredients for a mass murderer who just needed a 'trigger.'

He had run-ins with the Congresswoman before and if I'm reading the available evidence correctly, was fixated on her to the point of obsession. I'm speculating that she became the 'face of the enemy' in his fantasy because she didn't take his questions and comments seriously.
 
How do some people equate toning down violent political rhetoric with an assault on freedom of speech? No one is saying you can't just that you shouldn't.
 
35 pages so far...

so have we come to some agreement yet??

Palin's use of "crosshairs" on her political map is wrong?

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Democrat's use of "bullseyes" and "targets" on their political maps is right?

Democratic Leadership Council:

DLC-Targeting-map%5B1%5D.gif


Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee:

dccc-target-map.jpg
 
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