Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

Found this on the "Faces of Hope Movement" facebook page, started in memory of nine year old Christina Taylor Green.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/No-More-Unjust-War/120338904702676?v=wall

Maybe this will spark a national dialog.

Words from Christina's Mother:

"I just want her memory to live on," said Roxanne Green. "She's a face of hope, a face of change. Stop the violence, stop the hatred."

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source: http://www.seattlepi.com/connelly/433084_JOELARIZONA.html

(*Christina Taylor Green, nine-year-old victim in the Tucson shootings, once was an infant designated to be a "Face of Hope" by virtue of her birth on September 11, 2001.*)
 
tyr_13 said:
I almost want to compile a list of people/organizations/ideas people are trying to tie to this shooting. Palin, the NRA, Commies, 2nd Amendment, Nazis, etc, etc, etc...
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Yeah, people are hard-wired to find patterns. No surprise there.

I still say the over-the top rhetoric such as Palin's and many others are fueling a type of undesirable climate. YMMV, but it's my opinion, and I think it's valid.

And I can't listen to that one guy anymore, so pardon me while I expand my list by one.
 
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Biscuit said:
That is honestly a list of books that nearly every high school kid in america reads as a part of english class. Add in the Bell jar and Catcher in the Rye and you have it set. I have my high school copies of most of those on my bookshelf right now.

Mien Kampf and the communist Manifesto would be the exceptions but are also books that I read back then as do most of the kids I knew. I hate to sound elitist but its not a very mature reading list, it doesn't betray a great deal of creativity on behalf of the owner. Not sure I am saying this right. It looks more like a list of books one is told to read rather than a list of books one wants to read.
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That's what I thought as well. They are good classics, but it is kinda funny to see them all on someone's favorites list.

Skeptic Ginger said:
I think people are missing the point about the political discourse contributing to this incident and political discourse contributing to an extremist right winger (or other extremist like Tiller's murderer) acting out. They are both hazards of violent metaphors being used on a daily basis just to win votes, but they are different in many ways.

This guy was probably psychotic. He wasn't an extremist. You won't see some cohesive organized thought process espousing extreme Tea Party or other right wing views. But that doesn't mean hearing the rhetoric from the media wasn't affecting him nonetheless. His disorganized thought ramblings on YouTube, MySpace, and now found in papers at his home indicate he was likely incorporating some of the political discourse into his psychotic thought. He did indeed target this Congresswoman. It was not random.*


*I bolded this because the thread is so long one cannot read everything. I think it's time for those leaning right wing to admit the rhetoric was likely involved.
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Um, it is fair to say I am leaning left wing and I think you are employing weasel words after your "But..." It seems absurd to think that he was psychotic and then to hold the people he found messages in accountable in any way. I can't prove that right wing rhetoric didn't cause the shooting, and I shouldn't have to in a reasonable discussion. You should wait for more evidence before mounting your high horse.

And even if rhetoric was involved, so what? Other psychotics have claimed motivations from music and movies. The defining feature of psychotics is that they receive information that is not there.
 
Thunder said:
Here's the guy's list of favorite books. I'm sure we can come up with his precise political affiliation by analyzing it. ;)

anti-Authoritarian books are in red, pro-Authoritarian are in green.

Animal Farm
Brave New World
The Wizard Of OZ
Aesop Fables
The Odyssey
Alice Adventures Into Wonderland
Fahrenheit 451
Peter Pan
To Kill A Mockingbird
We The Living
Phantom Toll Booth
One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
Pulp
Through The Looking Glass
The Communist Manifesto
Siddhartha
The Old Man And The Sea
Gulliver's Travels
Mein Kampf
The Republic
Meno

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I have read many of those books, and several of them are among my favorites. I don't see that it really tells us much, Thunder.
 
Thunder said:
I hope it was a Tea-Bagger, Birther, or Truther.
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Your hopes have been affirmed. He was a truther.

YES! Let the hatred flow through you!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110110/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_gunman_11
Mistrust of government was his defining conviction, the friends said. He believed the government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system ("a New World Order currency" one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.
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Skeptic Ginger said:
His disorganized ramblings were nonetheless full of Tea Party themes including the business of supposed unconstitutional laws the Tea Party has been claiming are being passed. And who is going on about the Fed and currency? Ron Paul. Loughner's words are eerily similar to Ron Paul's. How many schizophrenics have you heard of with these particular political themes in their delusions? It is common to be paranoid of the government in schizophrenic themes, but the Constitution and the gold standard? Not so much.

And you have the sheriff of the county saying how pervasive the violent rhetoric has been in his state recently.


Then there is the issue of it shouldn't matter, this event should still be a wake up call.
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I don't see tea party themes at all. I think you are reaching. He actually reminds me of my brother who is a truther/conspiracy theorist. He advocates for the legalization of pot and is pretty much a college drop out. Although he did graduate from Oakland. My brother would tack up those lists of books to act like he was well read, when in reality he's basically a skater dude at the wise old age of 32.

Sorry but it's too soon for anyone to say anything about what he believes. It's a ridiculous assertion to say that by following a person on the web you know how he really feels. People troll for ships and giggles on the internet all the time.

What is wrong with waiting for facts before pointing fingers?
 
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Thunder said:
figures. now I hope he rots in Hell.

this may end up being the first Truther executed by lethal injection.
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Just asking questions, but have you noticed anyone posting here real recently who seems to be channeling Fred Phelps - just without the religious mumbo-jumbo?:)
 
I think you're more likely to find Alex Jones in his browser history than Glenn Beck.

I don't see his worldview lining up with any one single political ideology, just a mishmash of fractured CTs that fit in with what he believes he knows.

Still, I think we can find out a lot more about where he was coming from mentally when details of his interview and interrogation come out than simply what books were found in his home. Remember how much we learned from Tim McVeigh's interviews.


UWdude said:
And you all know it. LoL.
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Real classy there, sport.
 
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Tsukasa Buddha said:
That's what I thought as well. They are good classics, but it is kinda funny to see them all on someone's favorites list.

Um, it is fair to say I am leaning left wing and I think you are employing weasel words after your "But..." It seems absurd to think that he was psychotic and then to hold the people he found messages in accountable in any way. I can't prove that right wing rhetoric didn't cause the shooting, and I shouldn't have to in a reasonable discussion. You should wait for more evidence before mounting your high horse.

And even if rhetoric was involved, so what? Other psychotics have claimed motivations from music and movies. The defining feature of psychotics is that they receive information that is not there.
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I'd have to quibble with the relating it to pop culture. Pop culture does have a strong influence, there's no denying that and I'm not trying to.

But there's a different cachet to it when it comes from politicians, from elected officials. They lend the over-blown rhetoric a certain level of authority that movies and music don't have.
 
It's seems to me that this is a combination of crazy. This guy ended up being the perfect storm of all the cultish extreme political bickering, the paranoid delusions of the conspiracy theorists, and severe mental illness that goes unnoticed and untreated.

All these elements will inevitably result in the tragedy that happened. It's happened before and it will happen again.
 
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JoeyDonuts said:
I think you're more likely to find Alex Jones in his browser history than Glenn Beck.

I don't see his worldview lining up with any one single political ideology, just a mishmash of fractured CTs that fit in with what he believes he knows.

Still, I think we can find out a lot more about where he was coming from mentally when details of his interview and interrogation come out than simply what books were found in his home. Remember how much we learned from Tim McVeigh's interviews.....
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Other than the book list which was pretty mixed and could have just been names he was familiar with, what other elements in his ramblings do you find not coming from Tea Party Rhetoric?

I am willing to consider this but let's see the reason you think there is additional rhetoric we should be taking a closer look at.

BTY, I don't see any Glenn Beck in those ramblings. I see the Ron Paul rants about the currency and the Tea Party rants claiming laws they don't like are unconstitutional mostly hoping they can limit government by this tack. The theme encourages paranoia about the government.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Other than the book list which was pretty mixed and could have just been names he was familiar with, what other elements in his ramblings do you find not coming from Tea Party Rhetoric?

I am willing to consider this but let's see the reason you think there is additional rhetoric we should be taking a closer look at.
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I don't think anyone is saying that he's not heard tea party rhetoric. Everyone in the country has by now. And some of us have considered some of what they say. Many liberals I know are in favor of stricter immigration laws and support the fourth amendment. But that doesn't make them tea partiers.

It is obvious this guy had major psychological issues. To push him into the tea party gang is irresponsible speculation.

In fact the Congresswoman was Jewish and he had Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books. Can we then say this was an Anti Semitic act?

It's just nonsense to speculate.
 
truethat said:
I don't see tea party themes at all. I think you are reaching. He actually reminds me of my brother who is a truther/conspiracy theorist. He advocates for the legalization of pot and is pretty much a college drop out. Although he did graduate from Oakland. My brother would tack up those lists of books to act like he was well read, when in reality he's basically a skater dude at the wise old age of 32.

Sorry but it's too soon for anyone to say anything about what he believes. It's a ridiculous assertion to say that by following a person on the web you know how he really feels. People troll for ships and giggles on the internet all the time.

What is wrong with waiting for facts before pointing fingers?
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Did you see the quotes I posted from his MySpace page. On Dec 15 there were a number of specific references to the current government not following the Constitution. The newly elected Congress is going on quite loudly with that theme. He then mentioned Giffords' Congressional District in the same batch of ramblings and we now know he also specifically targeted her.


As for looking for some smoking gun, people defending the Repub gun metaphors and heavy promotion we should fear the government taking over our lives (health care and Obama distortions) don't get it that the shooting highlights a problem regardless if it mattered in this case or not. There are unstable people out there, the Repub and Tea Party rhetoric has been encouraging them. To pretend we don't know that until someone actually kills because of the rhetoric is just denial. There is other evidence like the sharp increase in threats against Congress in the first 3 months of 2010.
 
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truethat said:
I don't think anyone is saying that he's not heard tea party rhetoric. Everyone in the country has by now. And some of us have considered some of what they say. Many liberals I know are in favor of stricter immigration laws and support the fourth amendment. But that doesn't make them tea partiers.

It is obvious this guy had major psychological issues. To push him into the tea party gang is irresponsible speculation.

In fact the Congresswoman was Jewish and he had Mein Kampf as one of his favorite books. Can we then say this was an Anti Semitic act?

It's just nonsense to speculate.
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Your post suggests you don't understand what I'm saying. There are two kinds of dangerous people the gun and fear metaphors are a danger because of. One is the extremist. That would be the guy you describe as "in the Tea Party gang".

I'm not saying that is this guy, or that is what the rhetoric triggered in this case. This guy was most likely an unstable paranoid schizophrenic. I'm saying the constant background noise as it would be in his case, promoted the kind of homicidal delusion in this guy's head that might not have happened without it.

I'm also saying that even if the rhetoric did not trigger the homicidal action, it still serves as a reminder what such rhetoric can do.
 
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Some news organizations are reporting that Loughner may have been a follower of the group American Renaissance. I don't know much about them, but apparently they're described as far-right and particularly passionate about anti-semitism, anti-government and anti-immigration issues. I still say I won't be surprised if Alex Jones pops in this whole deal somehow (not as a participant, obviously, but as just another guy the shooter may have listened to).

Oh, just because it's far-right, or described as far-right, it doesn't mean it's in any way affiliated with the GOP. Just thought I'd get that out of the way, in case I'm accused of having a dog in this fight.
 
I still say it is far too early in the investigation to draw a direct causal link between current right-wing political rhetoric coming from people like Sarah Palin and his actions.

It may very well be that he was influenced by them, but we don't know that for certain yet. A signed copy of 'Going Rogue' would have been telling, as would if he had printed out that poster from SarahPAC and had it up on his wall. But he didn't, so far as we know right now.

Hell, he's being branded as both a left-winger and a right-winger by both sides. I don't think he fit into any political camp. But we'll know more soon. The SPLC is following some leads on him that suggest he may have had ties to an extremist racist organization. But I want to see the extent and nature of his associations with such groups before I make up my opinion.

ETA: SmartyPants nailed it.
 
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