Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[treehorn]

What percentage of people who write such stories, collect such knives or watch an animal porn video once in their twenties do you think commit murder, Treehorn?

I'll bet the pre-tax annual salary of a teacher that the percentage of murderers among people that enjoy writing rape stories and/or that enjoy collecting and wearing flick knives between bouts of watch animal porn (to the point where their college activates a "monitoring" program in respect of them) is higher than the percentage of murderers among people that would never enjoy/ engage in such behaviors.

 

[Mary_H]

1) Read the Court's judgment starting at page 39 (about the boys downstairs) and count for yourself.

Will I read that all the boys who lived downstairs stated that Rudy had the hots for Amanda? Or will I read that one young man, Giorgio Cocciaretto, stated that Rudy was interested in Amanda and asked if she was seeing anyone?

2) Raffaele did not want to share, so he had to impress - if she wanted to pull a rape prank, with or without others, he knew he'd better jump to.

Do we have any evidence whatsoever that Amanda ever asked Raffaele to do anything?

Alas, in his own lust for "extreme experiences" he was likely just as keen as Amanda.

We actually have much more subject matter about you and more personal revelations written by you than Claudia Matteini had when she formulated her lame-o evaluation of what Raffaele meant by "extreme experiences" on November 9th, 2007. Hooo-ey, what we could do with that stuff! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

3) Why so literal, Mary? Try conceptualizing of the work 'prank' in a broader way. Were your early 20's 'prank' free?

They certainly were free of rape pranks.

I suppose 'rape pranks' are a newer phenomenon...

I suppose they are. So far I have not seen one documented, I have only seen them talked about as if they are a phenomenon.

As for Amanda's penchant for writing short stories about rapes and stalking, and Raffaele's penchant for collecting and wearing knives, between sessions with his animal porn, that is, I will concede that few - if any of us - were that deranged.

And of course, all of the citations for these claims will be provided shortly?

 

[LondonJohn]

I didn't get banned, I was just asked not to post (in big red writing, as I said). And clearly, you are a newcomer to PMF if you think people are only banned there for good reason (though admittedly, RoseMontague's final post was particularly inflammatory). Feel free to cover yourself by writing 'katy_did at JREF said', if you like; it really makes no odds to me either way.

Of course, he could always use a couple of different machine translators to get an idea of what the Italian phrase

"in una di queste occasioni c'erano anche Amanda e Meredith"

means in English. Of course, it's obvious to anyone with only a passing knowledge of Romance languages that the first part of the phrase clearly translates to something like "in/on ONE of (...) occasions....". And those with a limited conversational understanding of Italian (such as me) can clearly tell that the phrase translates to:

"on one of these occasions Amanda and Meredith were there".

It's a shame that Jackie seems to be being deliberately belligerent and obstructive on this issue, when the truth - and the remedy - are clear for all to see.

 

[Mary_H]

I'll bet the pre-tax annual salary of a teacher that the percentage of murderers among people that enjoy writing rape stories and/or that enjoy collecting and wearing flick knives between bouts of watch animal porn (to the point where their college activates a "monitoring" program in respect of them) is higher than the percentage of murderers among people that would never enjoy/ engage in such behaviors.

I know for a fact that writers' workshops are full of murderers. Write, kill, write, kill. Their days are full.

Woman-murderer Ted Bundy said he consumed a lot of porn featuring women. Shouldn't it follow that murderous consumers of animal porn would kill animals?

 

[katy_did]

Of course, he could always use a couple of different machine translators to get an idea of what the Italian phrase

"in una di queste occasioni c'erano anche Amanda e Meredith"

means in English. Of course, it's obvious to anyone with only a passing knowledge of Romance languages that the first part of the phrase clearly translates to something like "in/on ONE of (...) occasions....". And those with a limited conversational understanding of Italian (such as me) can clearly tell that the phrase translates to:

"on one of these occasions Amanda and Meredith were there".

It's a shame that Jackie seems to be being deliberately belligerent and obstructive on this issue, when the truth - and the remedy - are clear for all to see.

Yes, treehorn seems to want to be obstructive for the sake of it on this one. I'm pretty sure it's because he's fully aware he's wrong, but yet again doesn't want to admit it. As you say, the error is very obvious.

 

[treehorn]

I'm not. But that was the exchange you quoted in order to illustrate your point. If you were referring to other questions and answers, you should have cited those exchanges instead.

Please stop creating straw men to knock down - it's getting very tiresome.

My conclusion about Knox's evasiveness on the stand is not based solely upon the cross by Lumumba's lawyer, although it was clearly on display there:

After living in Perugia for just 4 weeks or so, WHO were Amanda's 'mid-October dope smoking pals' if not the 3 girls and 4 boys that shared her little cottage and that invited Amanda & Rudy to said cottage for a little 'mid-October' smoke in???????

"Once in a while with friends" = EVASIVE

And, I repeat, Knox is very lucky she wasn't subjected to a cross-examination in a common law court because her cross on the subject of Rudy would have only been just beginning at the point that Pacelli broke it off.

 

[katy_did]

I know for a fact that writers' workshops are full of murderers. Write, kill, write, kill. Their days are full.

I signed up for an undergrad creative writing class once. Barely made it out alive. Psychos, the lot of 'em.

 

[treehorn]

I know for a fact that writers' workshops are full of murderers. Write, kill, write, kill. Their days are full.

Woman-murderer Ted Bundy said he consumed a lot of porn featuring women. Shouldn't it follow that murderous consumers of animal porn would kill animals?

Can you imagine finding out, back when you were a student, that your college literally felt compelled to "activate a monitoring" program on a guy over animal porn?!!

I mean, honestly, that's the WORST thing I've ever heard!

But wait, it gets better: he wears a knife to class!

C'mon! Admit it, the boy was sick!

 

[treehorn]

I signed up for an undergrad creative writing class once. Barely made it out alive. Psychos, the lot of 'em.

Writing that bit about a woman that allows another woman to be injured at a drug fueled party (under the name "Marie Pace") while on trial for a crime of the same description isn't crazy?!

Seriously, what did you think of THAT little 'episode'?

 

[treehorn]

Of course, he could always use a couple of different machine translators to get an idea of what the Italian phrase

"in una di queste occasioni c'erano anche Amanda e Meredith"

means in English. Of course, it's obvious to anyone with only a passing knowledge of Romance languages that the first part of the phrase clearly translates to something like "in/on ONE of (...) occasions....". And those with a limited conversational understanding of Italian (such as me) can clearly tell that the phrase translates to:

"on one of these occasions Amanda and Meredith were there".

It's a shame that Jackie seems to be being deliberately belligerent and obstructive on this issue, when the truth - and the remedy - are clear for all to see.

Why don't YOU bring it to their attention at PMF?

 

[treehorn]

I suppose they are. So far I have not seen one documented, I have only seen them talked about as if they are a phenomenon.

C'mon, Mary, you are the Google Queen, no?

Google 2 words: rape + prank

You'll see a lot of stuff, including an Australian case where, in 2005, 3 young men - and 1 seventeen year old female - perpetrated, while intoxicated, a nasty rape prank on a male victim and faced criminal charges.

 

[katy_did]

Writing that bit about a woman that allows another woman to be injured at a drug fueled party (under the name "Marie Pace") while on trial for a crime of the same description isn't crazy?!

Seriously, what did you think of THAT little 'episode'?

Interesting. Do you have a quote or a link to the story about a woman allowing another woman to be injured at a drug fueled party?

(Incidentally, sex, drink and drugs: not such uncommon themes amongst undergrad creative writing students).

 

[nopoirot]

nopoirot,

Candace Dempsey discussed the period between 1:45 and 5:45 in Murder in Italy. She said that Amanda described it as more of the same high-pressure browbeating as before. No one but you uses the phrase Jason Bourne flashbacks, and I don't think it is a helpful one.

So how did I hit on the Jason Bourne series as the inspiration for the "flashbacks"? Perhaps it was this bit from Tough questions for US student in Italy sex-murder trial, Gina Doggett (AFP), Jun 11, 2009:

She [Amanda] added: "When I said 'Patrick' I actually started to imagine a kind of movie, images that could have explained the situation, Patrick's face, then Grimana Square, then my house" on the night of the murder.

I understand a psychologist was trotted in to opine that Amanda (unlike Matt Damon) had in fact been experiencing "false flashbacks."

I see that, when the court and the lawyers tried to pin Amanda down on just how many days her state of "confusion" lasted, she set off like a hare being chased by a hound.

The astute will have noticed that, in some of the interrogation scenarios being proposed, the "load of bs" Sollecito admits having told the police has mysteriously disappeared.

 

[treehorn]

So you're classifying John Douglas as a "gun for hire", and thereby dismissing his opinion, yet you're not according the same level of critical scrutiny to Clint Van Zandt, whose opinion you cited at the beginning of this exchange?

I must say, I can't fault your logic here. It's breathtaking

No. Wrong. Slow it down.

I'm not dismissing John Douglas.

However, if he's a paid gun, or working for free in exchange for the chance to sit at the big desk with Larry King's replacement, I'll have to take what he says with a grain of salt, as a matter of common sense, but I'll listen.

The man's reputation is sterling (he's no Steve Moore).

It will be interesting to see if he's got something to say other than those tired lines penned by Marriott.

 

[treehorn]

Interesting. Do you have a quote or a link to the story about a woman allowing another woman to be injured at a drug fueled party?

(Incidentally, sex, drink and drugs: not such uncommon themes amongst undergrad creative writing students).

Amanda Knox won essay competition with story about violent sex party

Amanda Knox has won a prison essay-writing competition in which she imagined a young woman was injured during a drugs-fuelled sex party.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ition-with-story-about-violent-sex-party.html

What a thing to write while on trial for a crime of of similar description!!!

"Insane" is a word that comes to mind.

 

[katy_did]

I see that, when the court and the lawyers tried to pin Amanda down on just how many days her state of "confusion" lasted, she set off like a hare being chased by a hound.

If it was indeed a 'false internalized confession', it would be very characteristic that her confusion lasted for some time after the initial statements. The length of time the person remains confused depends on the extent to which their memories are distorted by the tactics used in the interrogation. The confusion in Amanda's handwritten statement is therefore very consistent with this kind of false statement, and I'd also argue it's something that a person would be very unlikely to fake, unless for some reason they were familiar with false internalized confessions...

Personally I think the defence would've been better off bringing in an expert in false confessions to testify on Amanda's behalf, rather than citing 'Amélie'.

 

[treehorn]

... Questioning even the most absurd and flattened of guilter dogma will get you banned at that place, Treehorn.

Let me guess: They banned you.

 

[katy_did]

Amanda Knox won essay competition with story about violent sex party

Amanda Knox has won a prison essay-writing competition in which she imagined a young woman was injured during a drugs-fuelled sex party.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ition-with-story-about-violent-sex-party.html

What a thing to write while on trial for a crime of of similar description!!!

"Insane" is a word that comes to mind.

So what you're saying is, you don't have a link to the story about this "violent", "drugs-fuelled sex party"?

I'm just curious to see how well the Telegraph's reporting matches up to the original...

 

[treehorn]

So what you're saying is, you don't have a link to the story about this "violent", "drugs-fuelled sex party"?

I'm just curious to see how well the Telegraph's reporting matches up to the original...

I've seen the original (and the translation) posted on PMF.

 

[katy_did]

I've seen the original (and the translation) posted on PMF.

I am puzzled then at your reluctance to post it here, even though you went to the trouble of posting a Telegraph summary about a "violent", "drugs-fuelled sex party"...