Merged Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

Skeptic Ginger said:
I looked for his FaceBook page right after they first said his name. There wasn't one.
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I'm fairly sure I had such a result initially (few seconds after the name was mentioned on CNN), but that it was private. So it might very well be a rumour, but we'll see.
 
LTC8K6 said:
As long as you note that all sides use such rhetoric currently, and have used it in all recent elections, and don't attempt to pin such use on one side...
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Do you have some examples of mainstream Democratic campaign or other political talking points or web pages or quotes that use language such as "second amendment remedies", that sponsor shoot-a-picture-of-the-candidate with an M16 as a fund raising event, that show a map with crosshairs on it along with names of candidates saying they need to be "taken out"?

Your argument makes a false equivalency.
 
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TraneWreck said:
I agree, which is why I've drawn no such conclusions. Every argument I've made is not dependent upon a particular factual outcome.
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I would have to reread all your posts in this thread, I started skimming (everyone's, not just yours) after page 15 (or whatever page Deepatrax started trolling). :D


There are definitely a few others that are drawing conclusions that should not have been drawn based on the scarcity of information available. These people know who they are, I suspect, and are ignoring that they're doing no better than Conspiracy Theorists, Homeopaths, et al. (Because there's no evidence, that means no evidence to the contrary, which means we can fill it with whatever speculation our biases choose and then just claim "speculation" when we're called on it)
 
Thunder said:
Sarah Palin better take down that map NOW...and apologize to the Congresswoman's family and the families of the rest of the victims.

And if she doesn't....Palin, you are through.
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She has taken down the map, hours ago. Though I still believe she really owes an apology to the Congresswoman and to the families of the victims.

And especially to the families of the Federal judge and the dead little girl.
 
After listening to and reading through some of Jared Lee Loughner's rantings, I came away with the distinct impression that they resemble many similar rantings posted here at JREF by people who indentified themselves as "needing medication" and who calimed to have special insight into subjects of paranormal, pseudo-scientific, religious, and spiritual natures.

In other words, Jared Lee Loughner seems to behave like many people afflicted with either manic-depression or paranoid-schizophrenia, or both. It would not surprise me in the least if Jared Lee Loughner turns out to be so afflicted.

Neither would it would not surprise me at all if it turns out that Jared Lee Loughner has been one of those similarly afflicted people who have posted here on JREF in the recent past, extolling their special insights into "New Physics" or apocalyptic prophesies.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Do you have some examples of mainstream Democratic campaign or other political talking points or web pages or quotes that use language such as "second amendment remedies", that sponsor shoot-a-picture-of-the-candidate with an M16 as a fund raising event, that show a map with crosshairs on it along with names of candidates saying they need to be "taken out"?

Your argument makes a false equivalency.
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And your argument ignores that there has not been evidence linking those maps to today's incident.

For all we know, this was simply the closest/most available Gov't assembly to the shooter.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Do you have some examples of mainstream Democratic campaign or other political talking points or web pages or quotes that use language such as "second amendment remedies", that sponsor shoot-a-picture-of-the-candidate with an M16 as a fund raising event, that show a map with crosshairs on it along with names of candidates saying they need to be "taken out"?
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There were certainly, at the time, such rhetoric directed at Bush, Cheney and possibly some other Republicans. I seem to recall that such rhetoric was routinely condemned by mainstream Democrats, however. It also seems that by any objective measurement, the prevalence of threats and violent rhetoric is much greater now with respect to Obama than it ever was with respect to Bush. Also, such rhetoric seems to be used about a great many more persons, basically any Democrat that Limbaugh or Beck chooses to focus on will get this treatment and it is a rare event if any conservative or Republican will correct them.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Perhaps the “meta-issue” that many of you want to bring up, but are too cowardly to come out and say it, is this: Is it time to repeal the FIRST Amendment?
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yes, because if you are against people's right to incite violence against politicians and judges, you are against freedom.

:rolleyes:
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
This thread has moved too fast to go back and check everything in the last couple hours. To summarize, it looks like the MySpace and YouTube videos have been confirmed as belonging to the shooter. And those pieces of evidence, plus his age indicate (note, I did not say, prove) paranoid schizophrenia.

There are a few too many politicians and other interviewees in the news calling the guy horrible names. That is a lot worse than those of us condemning the right wing rhetoric that encourages this kind of violence.

I maintain my original position, the rhetoric has the potential to trigger nutjobs. Now I'm sorry for using the noun nutjob myself to refer to people that might include some with serious mental illness. Regardless, of what kind of mental problems a person who reacts to the rhetoric has, and regardless if this shooter was or was not influenced by the rhetoric we are talking about, the rhetoric is dangerous and this incident is an example of why.

Whether this had been a nutjob right winger convinced the Democratic Congresswoman was a threat to his freedom, or if as it appears, it was a person with a mental illness who may or may not have been influenced by the rhetoric, the incident still illustrates the danger of the rhetoric. Like I said earlier, no one is saying the rhetoric would influence a rational person to act in this way. The danger is the rhetoric of constant fear mongering against your political opponent can trigger unstable people to do this kind of thing.
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You mean rhetoric like carrying signs that say:

I'm Here to Kill Bush, Shoot Me
Kill the Terrorists, Bomb the White House, Kill Bush
Save Mother Earth Kill Bush
Hang Bush for War Crimes
Bush is the Disease Death is the Cure
Bush the Only Dope Worth Shooting
Death to Extremist Christian Terrorist Bush


How about this exchange between Bill Maher and Senator John Kerry:

Maher- You could have gone to New Hampshire and killed 2 birds with one stone.
Kerry- Or I could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave and killed the real bird with one stone

Or Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Betty Williams saying,
“I mean right now, I could kill George Bush, no problem... Right now, I would love to kill George Bush

or this

On August 4, 2000, when Bush won the Republican nomination (but before he was president), Craig Kilborn on CBS’s The Late Late Show with Craig Kilborn ran a graphic of the words “SNIPERS WANTED” under George Bush as he gave his acceptance speech.

or this

New York State comptroller, Alan Hevesi said during a June 1, 2006 speech that Senator Charles Schumer “will put a bullet between the president’s eyes if he could get away with it.” Hevesi later apologized for the statement.

or

an award winning movie about Bush being assassinated


But yet you only see violent rhetoric on one side.
 
deepatrax said:
I'm not that much bothered by the images, but more by the verbal rhetoric of both sides.

I'm no great fan of Palin either. I lean to the Right, but I think there are more intelligent and astute Republicans out there than her.

And yes, this whole tragedy is sad.
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Thank you. I am glad we can at least agree on some of this, and that we've both settled a bit. I appreciate it.
 
novice skeptic said:
I'm Here to Kill Bush, Shoot Me
Kill the Terrorists, Bomb the White House, Kill Bush
Save Mother Earth Kill Bush
Hang Bush for War Crimes
Bush is the Disease Death is the Cure
Bush the Only Dope Worth Shooting
Death to Extremist Christian Terrorist Bush
.
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I would have put an SS sniper at this guy's house in 60 seconds.
 
Do you have some examples of mainstream Democratic campaign or other political talking points or web pages or quotes that use language such as "second amendment remedies", that sponsor shoot-a-picture-of-the-candidate with an M16 as a fund raising event, that show a map with crosshairs on it along with names of candidates saying they need to be "taken out"?
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Can you link such with this or any shooting or any crime?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
No, it is not fear mongering.

The speech is dangerous. This is not a new concept, nor is it far fetched. So how about dropping the nonsense that nothing is wrong with the rhetoric and instead actually discussing the real issues?
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So answer me this please: When lefties called for the death of George W. Bush, then president, did you stand up and call this dangerous and ask for the end of such dangerous rhetoric?
 
novice skeptic said:
an award winning movie about Bush being assassinated
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That was an excellent movie though, and it certainly did not call for any violence towards the president. I happen to be a fan of extremely realistic fiction, and that movie is one of the best examples in that genre that I can think of.
 
Federal Judge Killed, Congresswoman Critically Injured in Arizona Shooting

Surprised there wasn't a thread on this already. So far 6 killed in Total. 13 injured.

TUCSON, Ariz. – Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot in the head Saturday by a gunman who opened fire outside a grocery store during a meeting with voters, killing a federal judge and five others in a rampage that rattled the country and left Americans questioning whether divisive politics had pushed the suspect over the edge.
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The sheriff pointed to the vitriolic political rhetoric that has consumed the country as he denounced the shooting that claimed several of his friends as victims, including U.S. District Judge John Roll. The judge celebrated Mass on Saturday morning like he does every day before stopping by to say hello to his good friend Giffords.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot
 
Additional confirmation just reported that Gabe Zimmerman, age 30, director of community outreach for Ms. Giffords, is indeed among the dead. :(
 
novice skeptic said:
So answer me this please: When lefties called for the death of George W. Bush, then president, did you stand up and call this dangerous and ask for the end of such dangerous rhetoric?
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i thought folks calling Bush a fascist were idiots and wrong.
 
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