Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[TomM43]

I am just going by the Treehorn post. CP: On the occasion of this party, Miss, was hashish smoked?AK: There was a spinello that was smoked, yes.CP: At that time, in October 2007, did you use drugs? AK: Every once in a while with friends.

How is Every once in a while with friends not a direct response to At that time, in October 2007, did you use drugs?

Are you saying there is a limitation in the Italian legal system such that the prosecutors have a tradition of not asking straightforward questions and, if the answer is evasive or not specific, tradition forbids asking the witness clarifying follow up questions?

Is this what you mean when you say She would have been pinned down in the US, and eviscerated in the UK. and Massei interceded in an attempt at more aggressive cross-x with a comment to the effect, "we must accept" what she says. That seems so unlikely to me, but is that what you are saying?

Here is an English interpretation from tape recordings of the trial testimony:

Judge Massei: I want to point out that the accused offers answers to every question.
She could always refuse to respond. She is answering, and that doesn't mean
she has to be asked about the same circumstances again and again. She is
not a witness. The accused goes under different rules. We have to accept
the answers--

unknown voice: But--

Judge Massei: Please, please! We have to accept the answers given by the accused.
She can stop answering at any time. At some point we simply have to move
on to different questions. One circumstance is being asked again, the
accused answered. The regularly, the tranquillity, the rituality of the
court, of the process, has to be respected. The pubblico ministero was asking
about suggestions. [To Amanda] If you want a suspension we can do it right
away.

Why did not the prosecutor simply ask ‘did you converse with Rudy Guede at that party, or did you share a spinello, or smoke hashish together with Guede at that party? One obvious possibility is because the prosecutor did not want to hear the word ‘NO’.

But your saying instead it is due to a tradition? And could you list additional examples, or perhaps at least the most egregious one you refer to at the start of your post?
Thanks.

One example of non-responsiveness is the rather lengthy effort of Mignini, and the judge, to get from her the identity of the officer she alleges cuffed her on the head. She begins with rambling narrative about doing her homework by the elevator, and after multiple re-asking by Mignini interrupted by multiple objections (which Massei comments appear to be "preventive"), and re-asking by the judge, she is only able to say that the officer was female with long brown hair.

The above-quoted pronouncements by Judge Massei appear the midst of a prolonged effort to learn who first mentioned the name, Patrick-- an officer or AK. Here is an English interpretation of the conclusion of that line of questioning:

Mignini: The question was: the question that was objected was about the term
"suggerimento". Because I interpret that word this way: the police say
"Was it Patrick?" and she confirms that it was Patrick. This is suggestion
in the Italian language.

Judge Massei: Excuse me, please, excuse me. Let's return to the accused. What was the
suggestion, because I thought I had understood that the suggestion consisted
in the fact that Patrick Lumumba, to whom the message was addressed, had
been identified, they talked about "him, him, him". In what terms exactly
did they talk about this "him"? What did they say to you?

AK: So, there was this thing that they wanted a name. And the message --

Judge Massei: You mean, they wanted a name relative to what?

AK: To the person I had written to, precisely. And they told me that I knew,
and that I didn't want to tell. And that I didn't want to tell because I
didn't remember or because I was a stupid liar. Then they kept on about
this message, that they were literally shoving in my face saying "Look
what a stupid liar you are, you don't even remember this!" At first, I
didn't even remember writing that message. But there was this interpreter
next to me who kept saying "Maybe you don't remember, maybe you don't
remember, but try," and other people were saying "Try, try, try to remember
that you met someone, and I was there hearing "Remember, remember, remember,"
and then there was this person behind me who -- it's not that she actually
really physically hurt me, but she frightened me...

Judge Massei: "Remember!" is not a suggestion. It is a strong solicitation of your
memory. Suggestion is rather...

AK: But it was always "Remember" following this same idea, that...

Judge Massei: But they didn't literally say that it was him!

AK: No. They didn't say it was him, but they said "We know who it is, we know
who it is. You were with him, you met him."

Judge Massei: So, these were the suggestions.

AK: Yes.

 

[snook1]

I wanted to comment on an earlier post made by Justinian. I have never been able to figure out how RS DNA could possibly land on the little metal clasp and none on the surrounding fabric. The metal clasp is not touched when removing a bra. Even if he was cutting the bra off, he would have had to leave DNA on the fabric IMO

That's what I was thinking.

If he, in fact, was cutting the clasp off, then why there's no trace of his DNA on other parts of the bra? Why only on the clasp? I would really like to hear a possible explanation from the guilters on this one.

 

[TomM43]

TomM43,

***

Was Mr. Maresca being "disrespectful" when he walked out of the courtroom when Amanda spoke last month?

In a US court there are some things that an attorney can do while court is in session without permission of the court, but walking out of the courtroom is not one of them.

I am not aware of any adverse repercussions that befell Maresca for it. I rather doubt that it was a spontaneous act, and my guess is that it was taken up with the court in advance.

Personally, I don't think it was a wise move. He squandered an opportunity to size up the jurors and see how they responded to her, and what parts of her statement got what sort of reaction.

 

[Chris C]

Odd that Amanda, being a racist bigot, would have teamed up with Guede for a Charlie Manson type spree.

I've tried to point out that exact same thing to some of the people that call Knox a Jew hater.

 

[Chris C]

Just for the record, Mudede is a professor, filmwriter and leftwing cultural critic.

Left Wing Cultural Critic? Considering Left Wing beliefs involve the acceptance of other cultures, what exactly is a Left Wing Cultural Critic?

Is he Right Wing that criticizes Left Wing Culture or is he Left Wing that criticizes the culture he is suppose to be supporting?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Mr. Mudede's politics

Left Wing Cultural Critic? Considering Left Wing beliefs involve the acceptance of other cultures, what exactly is a Left Wing Cultural Critic?

Is he Right Wing that criticizes Left Wing Culture or is he Left Wing that criticizes the culture he is suppose to be supporting?

ChrisC,

He is a Marxist.

 

[loverofzion]

Left Wing Cultural Critic? Considering Left Wing beliefs involve the acceptance of other cultures, what exactly is a Left Wing Cultural Critic?

Is he Right Wing that criticizes Left Wing Culture or is he Left Wing that criticizes the culture he is suppose to be supporting?

Left wing is a liberal, anti authoritarian prism through which one looks at the world.
It has nothing at all to do with "criciticizing" a culture; he writes about films, current events, literature from his standpoint and world view.

Your post really makes no sense at all.

 

[loverofzion]

I've tried to point out that exact same thing to some of the people that call Knox a Jew hater.

Why? Did she go on another crime spree with a Jew?

 

[Chris C]

Why? Did she go on another crime spree with a Jew?

Is Meredith a Jew?

 

[Chris C]

ChrisC,

He is a Marxist.

That explains alot.

 

[Fine]

Just for the record, Mudede is a professor, filmwriter and leftwing cultural critic. Your slurs on his writings and character are the desperate acts to undermine his faithful rendering of amanda's trash talk to a Jewish coworker about her people killing his people.
And if you think that sounds like 7th grade, well let that be your conclusion.

As for your own credentials for reporting your version of reality, what do they consist of exactly.

________________

loverofzion,

I can assure you that Mudede is not a professor. He's a journalist, who has taught creative writing courses at a local university as a lecturer.

///

 

[RWVBWL]

3 against 1 verses 3 + 1

Eh?? Sorry, RWVBWL, maybe I've missed something here, but I've simply got to ask you to elaborate on this, and explain how it relates to the case?

Greetings The Third Man,
3 against 1 verses 3 +1...

The prosecution and court has said that a sexual assualt occurred in Meredith Kercher's bedroom involving 3 against 1.

So I have tried to remember any incidents in my own life that I have been involved in or witnessed involving 4 people in a small room or any bloody fights/stabbings in a small room that might help me understand what might have transpired the night Miss Merdith Kercher lost her life.

I remember a spur of the moment get together of about 15-20 good friends that I had about a year before the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher. I remember, as a few others do too, a consensual intimate encounter involving 3 males and 1 woman. The human interaction and dynamics of movement of the people involved was enlightening, you might say...

After people were drinking and smoking for a few hours, but not, as far as I know, usin' hard drugs, since most know I frown on it at my place, 2 of the boyz and 1 woman decided to become intimate in a side room. The wide entranceway did not close, and so, with everyone buzzed, they did not care. Being that it was my place, I made it known to the boyz that the woman was in charge, she called the shots if+when she wanted it over. Clothes were strewn about, things moved, and bumped over. Another male friend soon joined them, taking turns giving and recieving oral pleasure and copulating. The room they were in was about 10 x 15 feet, -(I know, for I helped lay the carpet). It is a bit larger, I believe, than the room that Miss Kercher was sexually assaulted and killed in. But still it was kind of cramped. The boyz being boyz though, after about an hour and a half, they managed to fulfill their desires and the woman was quite satisfied. Everyone is still friends, some might be with benefits...

As I think of the brutal sexual assault and bloody stabbing murder of Miss Kercher that we discuss and what the evidence says verses what the prosecution wants me to believe, I am reminded of this intimate encounter I viewed off and on for 1 1/2 hours and also a bloody fist fight that had happened at another party I had that I have written about recently. This wherein "Jimmy", a Samoan/Hawaiian surfer, had been slugged hard in the face by "Rico", -(a stocky Hispanic who played bass guiter as my ex brother-in-law played drums in 2 bands called 'Tura Satana' and 'Manhole'), for hittin' on his chick. In my bloody kitchen, "Jimmy" had grabbed a huge kitchen knife to defend himself, and "Rico" then backed off. I remember some of the 5 of us stepping in "Jimmy's" blood, and tracking it around as we exited the kitchen. "Jimmy" clean up his bloody mess, split, the party continued, the cops did not come and close this 1 down, nor even write me a "noise" ticket...

When I think back to these 2 incidents that happened before Miss Kercher was brutally stabbed to her death,
I wonder what it would have been like if the consensual 3 + 1 intimate encounter I mention above had instead been a violent affair, instead of a mutally satisfying encounter.

What would it have been like if what I saw was instead similiar to what the prosecution theorizes happened in Miss Kercher's bedroom. How would it have went down?

3 - (2 males+1 female!?!) against 1.
People intoxicated, people high, people careless.
An unwilling participant, scared, pleading, begging.
The woman might have fought back, but is then held, immobilized.
She is beaten. Knives drawn. Clothes removed. she is violated, raped.
But yet a glass of water is not knocked over, nor are her written postcards scattered. Nor is the room a mess.
Brutally stabbed, with blood, blood, blood all over the area where she lies.
A 10 minute death, at the very least.
A knife placed upon the bed, leaving an outline.
Towels gotten and then a cover placed over this dead, violated young woman.
Her purse searched...

1 person, who left much DNA, and even fingerprints and/or handprints in her blood, will have his identity soon become known.
He goes dancing soon afterwards on that bloody, murderous night and then leaves town within dayz.

BUT what of the other 2?
In this bedroom where a bloody murder and a sexual assault had occurred,
2 other people do not leave any fingerprints, palmprints, handprints, even in blood,
except for 1 small possible trace of DNA, along with some other's possible DNA, on a hard to reach sliver of metal on a bra clasp.
None on the woman's dead body.
None on the woman's jacket, t-shirt, or rest of the bra.
None on the woman's pants, her underwear.
None on her socks, nor her shoes.
None on the door, it's handle, the walls, a table, the mattress, a sheet.
Not a fingerprint, or handprint or any other spec of DNA.
No blood on any of their own clothes, shoes, nor at his apartment...

They do not go dancing afterwards nor leave town on a planned day trip the next day,
but instead, call the police and show the 1st officers to arrive everything, even though a supposed clean-up is not yet finished .

Were the other 2 even there?
NO, I believe they were not...

That is what I think of sometimes as I recall the night I watched 4 people I know become consensually intimate while high, drunk and carefree
in a room just a bit larger than the 1 that Miss Meredith Kercher was sexually assaulted and brutally stabbed to her death in, left to die in a pool of her own blood.
Blood which then helped convict the 1 person who,
without a doubt, was surely in Meredith's bedroom that night.

Peace, RWVBWL

PS-Please don't hate,
just because my life's experience aren't like yours or your friends too.
Thanks...

 

[HumanityBlues]

In a US court there are some things that an attorney can do while court is in session without permission of the court, but walking out of the courtroom is not one of them.

I am not aware of any adverse repercussions that befell Maresca for it. I rather doubt that it was a spontaneous act, and my guess is that it was taken up with the court in advance.
Personally, I don't think it was a wise move. He squandered an opportunity to size up the jurors and see how they responded to her, and what parts of her statement got what sort of reaction.

Actually, they have procedures for this in the United States. I deal with these all the time in court when I know I'm going to storm out beforehand. Generally you submit what's called a Motion to Allow Storming Out of Court During Spontaneous Statement of Defendant before that court date.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Treehorn,
I remember you stating something to the effect that in your world, Kevin Lowe wouldn't have a job.

With that in mind, which of these folks, if any, do you believe should still have a job?:
1) During the mind numbing cell phone network details, the prosecutor falls asleep.*
2) One eldery juror becomes well known for napping after his lunch.*
3) Judge Massei, while on the podium, answers his cell phone while the trial is underway.*
4) Prosecutor Manuela Comodi plays solitaire on her computer when she wasn't on the podium.*
Thanks for your reply!
<snip>

I suppose you could say that trials unfold like plays, books or movies: Some parts are more interesting and/or relevant than others.
On many occasions I've seen judges, jurors and counsel nod off (however briefly) during testimony from a witness that is, well, less-than-exciting (picture a technical expert covering ground that's already been covered, for example).
Nevertheless, I have little doubt that the ears of the Italian triers pricked up when key testimony was delivered.
As for counsel playing solitaire on a laptop (presumably during portions of the trial that did not directly involve their input), it's no surprise, really. In the old days I suppose counsel would have been 'doodling' on a legal pad with a pen. Solitaire in court is not something I've seen personally, but I surely did see a lot of my classmates playing it on their laptops during lectures, so...
(I admired their courage - I was terrified of being caught off-guard by a prof struck with a sudden urge to get Socratic and wouldn't have dared to play Solitaire during a lecture.)

I suppose lay people are under the impression that every second of a trial requires the wrapt attention of every lawyer at the table, but it's not like that,RWVBWL.

PS It just struck me that Comodi might even be a genius: a brilliant classmate of mine (he got a perfect score on his LSAT - who does that, BTW, honestly?!) used to be able to move, effortlessly, from Solitaire on his laptop to the middle of an intense/ complex classroom discussion, and back, without missing a beat. It was an amazing thing to behold.

Hi Treehorn,
Thanks for the reply!
I am still having a hard time believing that this is appropriate behavior while in court for a murder trial!
Maybe it would be ok for a simple noise ticket infraction that was being contested, but a complex murder trial?!?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[The Third Man]

Peace, RWVBWL

PS-Please don't hate,
just because my life's experience aren't like yours or your friends too.
Thanks...

Hey dude, each to their own, I'm not judging. Just thought it was funny and couldn't see how it related that's all, but I see what you're getting at now.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hey dude, each to their own, I'm not judging. Just thought it was funny and couldn't see how it related that's all, but I see what you're getting at now.

Hi The Third Man,
Thanks, I appreciate that!
By the way, welcome to JREF! I always luv to hear the thoughts of New Blood, even if I do not agree with them. I was once young New Blood too!
And I have never put anyone on ignore, for this being the court of public opinion, why would I want to walk out, so to say and possibly miss something important about a case that I care enough about to have researched a lot and participate in?
With that in mind, I look forward to your participation!
Take it easy,
RWVBWL?

 

[Chris C]

Here is one of the spheron pics.

I always wondered how the scientifica lab let a blood soaked towel mold up. Until I noticed this pic. Its not blood soaked. It barely has any blood on it at all. Instead what I see is water and blood soaked stains. Yep, that towel was wet with water not blood most likely. That brings up a few thoughts, first this towel wasn't used to stop the bleeding like Guede said, unless the bottom side is soaked with the blood. Also it appears to have water/blood mixed stains which would mean the user cleaned up with a water source before bringing the towel into the room. Guede claims to have brought that towel in the room.

 

[billyryan]

Greetings The Third Man,
3 against 1 verses 3 +1...

The prosecution and court has said that a sexual assualt occurred in Meredith Kercher's bedroom involving 3 against 1.

So I have tried to remember any incidents in my own life that I have been involved in or witnessed involving 4 people in a small room or any bloody fights/stabbings in a small room that might help me understand what might have transpired the night Miss Merdith Kercher lost her life.

I remember a spur of the moment get together of about 15-20 good friends that I had about a year before the brutal murder of Meredith Kercher. I remember, as a few others do too, a consensual intimate encounter involving 3 males and 1 woman. The human interaction and dynamics of movement of the people involved was enlightening, you might say...

After people were drinking and smoking for a few hours, but not, as far as I know, usin' hard drugs, since most know I frown on it at my place, 2 of the boyz and 1 woman decided to become intimate in a side room. The wide entranceway did not close, and so, with everyone buzzed, they did not care. Being that it was my place, I made it known to the boyz that the woman was in charge, she called the shots if+when she wanted it over. Clothes were strewn about, things moved, and bumped over. Another male friend soon joined them, taking turns giving and recieving oral pleasure and copulating. The room they were in was about 10 x 15 feet, -(I know, for I helped lay the carpet). It is a bit larger, I believe, than the room that Miss Kercher was sexually assaulted and killed in. But still it was kind of cramped. The boyz being boyz though, after about an hour and a half, they managed to fulfill their desires and the woman was quite satisfied. Everyone is still friends, some might be with benefits...

As I think of the brutal sexual assault and bloody stabbing murder of Miss Kercher that we discuss and what the evidence says verses what the prosecution wants me to believe, I am reminded of this intimate encounter I viewed off and on for 1 1/2 hours and also a bloody fist fight that had happened at another party I had that I have written about recently. This wherein "Jimmy", a Samoan/Hawaiian surfer, had been slugged hard in the face by "Rico", -(a stocky Hispanic who played bass guiter as my ex brother-in-law played drums in 2 bands called 'Tura Satana' and 'Manhole'), for hittin' on his chick. In my bloody kitchen, "Jimmy" had grabbed a huge kitchen knife to defend himself, and "Rico" then backed off. I remember some of the 5 of us stepping in "Jimmy's" blood, and tracking it around as we exited the kitchen. "Jimmy" clean up his bloody mess, split, the party continued, the cops did not come and close this 1 down, nor even write me a "noise" ticket...

When I think back to these 2 incidents that happened before Miss Kercher was brutally stabbed to her death,
I wonder what it would have been like if the consensual 3 + 1 intimate encounter I mention above had instead been a violent affair, instead of a mutally satisfying encounter.

What would it have been like if what I saw was instead similiar to what the prosecution theorizes happened in Miss Kercher's bedroom. How would it have went down?

3 - (2 males+1 female!?!) against 1.
People intoxicated, people high, people careless.
An unwilling participant, scared, pleading, begging.
The woman might have fought back, but is then held, immobilized.
She is beaten. Knives drawn. Clothes removed. she is violated, raped.
But yet a glass of water is not knocked over, nor are her written postcards scattered. Nor is the room a mess.
Brutally stabbed, with blood, blood, blood all over the area where she lies.
A 10 minute death, at the very least.
A knife placed upon the bed, leaving an outline.
Towels gotten and then a cover placed over this dead, violated young woman.
Her purse searched...

1 person, who left much DNA, and even fingerprints and/or handprints in her blood, will have his identity soon become known.
He goes dancing soon afterwards on that bloody, murderous night and then leaves town within dayz.

BUT what of the other 2?
In this bedroom where a bloody murder and a sexual assault had occurred,
2 other people do not leave any fingerprints, palmprints, handprints, even in blood,
except for 1 small possible trace of DNA, along with some other's possible DNA, on a hard to reach sliver of metal on a bra clasp.
None on the woman's dead body.
None on the woman's jacket, t-shirt, or rest of the bra.
None on the woman's pants, her underwear.
None on her socks, nor her shoes.
None on the door, it's handle, the walls, a table, the mattress, a sheet.
Not a fingerprint, or handprint or any other spec of DNA.
No blood on any of their own clothes, shoes, nor at his apartment...

They do not go dancing afterwards nor leave town on a planned day trip the next day,
but instead, call the police and show the 1st officers to arrive everything, even though a supposed clean-up is not yet finished .

Were the other 2 even there?
NO, I believe they were not...

That is what I think of sometimes as I recall the night I watched 4 people I know become consensually intimate while high, drunk and carefree
in a room just a bit larger than the 1 that Miss Meredith Kercher was sexually assaulted and brutally stabbed to her death in, left to die in a pool of her own blood.
Blood which then helped convict the 1 person who,
without a doubt, was surely in Meredith's bedroom that night.

Peace, RWVBWL

PS-Please don't hate,
just because my life's experience aren't like yours or your friends too.
Thanks...

Hi RWVBWL
You asked me for a quote about a claim that I read of one of Merediths murderers masturbating on top of her dead body
I cannot now find where I read it,it wasn't Rudy who said it,it was part of the version of how Luciano Aviello claimed his brother and an Albanian accomplice murdered Meredith,Mignini will have known of this claim and for that reason did not want the pillow case stains tested,or hid the result if it was tested.with how easy it appears for Stefanoni to lie I am sure Mignini would not have any bother getting her to deny testing the pillow case stains

Even though I cannot now find where I read this I am certain I read it

 

[RWVBWL]

Secondhand stores do sell used bras, by the dozen, at about 1/10th the price of new.

<snip>
I saw about 2 dozen at the second hand store. Thus the conclusion of this scientific excursion to uncover the truth[/hilte] reveals that wearing a bra that had previously been warn by somebody else is not totally abhorrent to a large enough segment of the population that there is a viable market.

They also sell used underpants.

Ewww.

Hi Dan O., Along with having the best timeline going, I am amazed that you actually stopped at a 2nd hand store in your quest for the truth! Kinda reminds me of my own floating feces test and throwing a brick thru a framed, single pane glass window test! Both of these tests helped further convince me of my current belief that Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox had nuthin' to do with Meredith Kercher's murder... Take it easy, RWVBWL PS-I suppose I should have done my window test a bit better, using, you know, an 8.8lb rock instead of a brick. And I should have had used a window with shutters behind the window, and tried breakin' it at night with the shutters open, the shutters partially closed, and the shutters completely closed, since Filomena Romanelli apparently does not seem to remember which 1 of these simple acts she did the day she left her room on Nov. 1, 2007. I wonder if she was smokin' a funny cigarette -(this bein' what my deceased Grandma Marie called the joint's that my Mom and step-dad smoked!) that day? If so, I wonder if Filomena too would have declared that she was forever going to refrain from smokin' splif's if she herself had gone thru the 3 years of hell that Amanda and Raffaele are still continuing to go thru... L8, RW

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi RWVBWL
You asked me for a quote about a claim that I read of one of Merediths murderers masturbating on top of her dead body
I cannot now find where I read it,it wasn't Rudy who said it,it was part of the version of how Luciano Aviello claimed his brother and an Albanian accomplice murdered Meredith,Mignini will have known of this claim and for that reason did not want the pillow case stains tested,or hid the result if it was tested.with how easy it appears for Stefanoni to lie I am sure Mignini would not have any bother getting her to deny testing the pillow case stains

Even though I cannot now find where I read this I am certain I read it

Hi BillyRyan,
Thanks for that info, which I, knowing your deep interest too in this brutal murder case we discuss, do believe.

I find it interesting that this stain has not been tested and the results affirmed,
for what if it was from Raffaele Sollecito, the other convicted male in this sexual assault and bloody murder?

That would definately change my opinion of his innocence!
Take it easy, RWVBWL