Has consciousness been fully explained?

[rocketdodger]

Yet, when life isn't involved, why do you think computation is underway? Is Na combining with Cl a computation? Or an electron changing energy state?

As orbini said, no not by itself.

Computation occurs when one system is put in a state that has a different local minima than the previous state by some other system. Meaning, the behavior changes in a fundamental way ( different local minima ) due to whatever changes in the other system led to the state change.

For example, if you have a marble and two depressions, a computation occurs when you move the marble from any place in one depression to any place in the second depression -- at any time thereafter, all else being equal, the marble's behavior is fundamentally different since it converges to a different local minima (the bottom of the other depression ).

 

[AlBell]

Do you suggest any of that applies when life (& consciousness) is not available to notice?

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

I expected a dryer response.

Well, you know, with a brain made of sound tubules it's obviously an issue of fabric softner(ing). Or something.

 

[Orbini]

Meaning something else has to treat it (the presence of salt) as a specific instruction?

Well, for one, you'd want something with multiple states, with the capability to go back and forth between the two.

Na/Cl separate, and NaCl combined could (in theory) fulfill these two states, but you'll need a mechanism that can push this back and forth in a controlled way.

(You'll need a few more things, but this is a start)

 

[Malerin]

???

Everything you just cited exactly confirms what Pixy said ...

.... are you not aware that "itself" is just a different grammatical form of "oneself?"

Actually, no. Pixy did not cite a standard dictionary definition because he does not believe self-reference is simply referring to oneself. If he did believe that, he would have to conclude cells are conscious, as they process information which is self-referential. Did you read the WIKI articles he linked? I'm assuming not.

In computer science, reflection is the process by which a computer program can observe and modify its own structure and behavior at runtime.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_(computer_science)

In computer science, self-reference occurs in reflection, where a program can read or modify its own instructions like any other data.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-reference

Of course you can see the huge unevidenced assumption going on (or you should be able to see it): that consciousness should be defined in terms of computer science. This is more question begging (or at least horribly circular): Pixy is using a computer science defintion to argue consciousness belongs in the realm of... wait for it... COMPUTATION. What a brilliant move! No tautology there at all!

 

[Orbini]

Pixy is using a computer science defintion to argue consciousness belongs in the realm of... wait for it... COMPUTATION. What a brilliant move! No tautology there at all!

The function of the brain is to calculate what is the best way to stay alive and have kids. Seems very reasonable that this can be done with computations.

 

[blobru]

Well, you know, with a brain made of sound tubules it's obviously an issue of fabric softner(ing). Or something.

Sigh. With material like that, you'll never be a toaster. ()

Well, for one, you'd want something with multiple states, with the capability to go back and forth between the two.

Na/Cl separate, and NaCl combined could (in theory) fulfill these two states, but you'll need a mechanism that can push this back and forth in a controlled way.

(You'll need a few more things, but this is a start)

Yes, a reset mechanism would be nice (why only some physical processes are good candidates for "computation").

 

[Malerin]

The function of the brain is to calculate what is the best way to stay alive and have kids. Seems very reasonable that this can be done with computations.

Except many people don't have kids, they do very self-destrutive things, and actually kill themselves occasionally. Try again, Orbini.

 

[Aepervius]

Except many people don't have kids, they do very self-destrutive things, and actually kill themselves occasionally. Try again, Orbini.

He did not say the brain is PERFECT at it. He did only say the function is to lead the body to reproduce and maintain its life.

In fact we even have a name for failure of the brain, be them of physical nature or more abstract. Adn addiction and self destruction is certainly not recognized as a normal function of the brain.

Try again, Malerin.

 

[Malerin]

He did not say the brain is PERFECT at it. He did only say the function is to lead the body to reproduce and maintain its life.

That's not what he said.

Originally Posted by Orbini
The function of the brain is to calculate what is the best way to stay alive and have kids. Seems very reasonable that this can be done with computations.

OK. I calculate that I can live longer by eating healthier. Now where did I put that Big Mac? Orbini has to explain how we can calculate the right answer... and then do the complete opposite. That gets into intentionality and consciousness. Which is to say that one of the functions of the brain (it has many) is to produce consciousness. Which begs the question, HOW does it produce consciousness (we don't know) and WHY do we have subjective experiences (again, we don't know). And then naturally threads like these arise.

In fact we even have a name for failure of the brain, be them of physical nature or more abstract. Adn addiction and self destruction is certainly not recognized as a normal function of the brain.

Try again, Malerin.

Since everyone does self-destructive things, I would argue that it IS normal behavior.

 

[Philosaur]

OK. I calculate that I can live longer by eating healthier. Now where did I put that Big Mac?

And why do you think we crave fatty foods and sweets? Because the heuristics the brain operates by say that sugars and fats are useful sources of energy. Just because we often miscalculate the optimal solution doesn't mean we don't calculate.

Try again, Malerin.

 

[Malerin]

And why do you think we crave fatty foods and sweets? Because the heuristics the brain operates by say that sugars and fats are useful sources of energy. Just because we often miscalculate the optimal solution doesn't mean we don't calculate.

Try again, Malerin.

Define "crave".

 

[Philosaur]

Define "crave".

Define "washing machine".

 

[westprog]

Computation is a general abstraction of what a given system is doing. The abstraction itself is not identical to what is physically occurring in the system.

I'd be interested to see a reference in a biological textbook where this process is referred to as "computation". For some odd reason, biologists don't seem to regard this as a helpful concept.

 

[westprog]

"axiom" sounds much more impressive.

"Axiom" would at least allow for some progress, even if built on sand. As it is, it's a self-contained little universe, with no connection to actual human beings (or computers for that matter).

 

[westprog]

The function of the brain is to calculate

No, it isn't. The function of the brain is to control other organs - as, say, a gland.

 

[Orbini]

No, it isn't. The function of the brain is to control other organs - as, say, a gland.

While the brain certainly does those things too, it is not something that involves conscious thought, and it also doesn't take a lot of room in the brain.

Humans have a huge brain, and most of it is used for computing what actions are most beneficial to its survival.

 

[Orbini]

Except many people don't have kids, they do very self-destrutive things, and actually kill themselves occasionally. Try again, Orbini.

Actually, only a few people to very self-destructive things. Mostly young males. The reason why young males do risky things is because there's was huge payoff to become the leader of the group not so long ago in our ancestor's history. The leader got all the females, and the other males got hardly anything. If you don't get a chance to mate, you might as well gamble your life for a chance to be on top.

The fact that the brain doesn't do everything perfectly is simply because it was formed by evolutionary pressures from a time where we didn't have contraceptives and big macs. Evolution will take a while to catch up.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

I'd be interested to see a reference in a biological textbook where this process is referred to as "computation". For some odd reason, biologists don't seem to regard this as a helpful concept.

Which process? Do you mean like computational neuroscience? There are already textbooks written in that field and it is a big part of all interdisciplinary cognitive science programs. Case Western has a relatively new department that started a few years ago. There are others around the country as well.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

No, it isn't. The function of the brain is to control other organs - as, say, a gland.

Raising an arm without reference to a goal seems kind of silly. We move our bodies for a reason; the ultimate function was 'designed' for survival. We can create any number of other goals, however, some of which concern survival and others that do not.