Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[shuttlt]

He met her and hired her and she was still working for him until shortly after Meredith's murder. Something happened that changed his mind about her.

Sure he hired her. But would he have fired her if he thought she wasn't a particularly nice person? I take it that thing about her being told to hand out fliers instead of working at the bar turned out not to be true?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Daily Telegraph article last march

Around and around we go. Isn't it the court that said that everything the defence needed had been produced? In which case, surely it is the court who is, or was witholding the EDF files?

I am not sure what you mean. Do you have a citation with respect to what the court said? Bob Graham reported, "Deputy prosecutor Manuela Comodi brushed off the request for all forensic documentation and added: 'They have everything they need. That is enough.'" Note her choice of words, "everything they need" versus "everything."

 

[shuttlt]

I am not sure what you mean. Do you have a citation with respect to what the court said? Bob Graham reported, "Deputy prosecutor Manuela Comodi brushed off the request for all forensic documentation and added: 'They have everything they need. That is enough.'" Note her choice of words, "everything they need" versus "everything."

No I don't have a citiation, but I wonder if you could flesh out position. Do you believe it was the position of the court that the defence did not have all the files it needed?

I'm not terribly worried about the everything/everything they were entitled to/needed distincting. At the very least one would have to check the original Italian, and even then we're relying on a couple of words in off the cuff comments again.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Patrick's testimony

Sure he hired her. But would he have fired her if he thought she wasn't a particularly nice person? I take it that thing about her being told to hand out fliers instead of working at the bar turned out not to be true?

shuttlt,

Been there, done that with Capealadin this past summer and fall. BTW, that is where you will find the positive evaluation from one of Ms. Knox's employers in Washington State. I respectfully suggest that Patrick's testimony is more reliable than the Daily Mail article. IIRC, the headline says that he fired her, but the text says she was relegated to handing out fiyers. So that article is in conflict with itself.

 

[moodstream]

Don't argue with me. I'm not claiming conspiracies. You're presumably not denying plenty of posters have claimed that the evidence was manufactured deliberately?


Could be. Do you mean that the cops and the lab are all doing this independently?

I can give you two places where I believe the police are interfering with the evidence to the determent of Knox/Sollicito. 1) the computer hard drives. They are ruined serially. How can that be an accident?. 2) The preliminary report to the GIP of a high blood alcohol level in Meredith’s blood. Police corruption does not seem to be a reason shared by many on this board, but to me it seems unlikely to be accidental and it supports an early theory of a villainous sex orgy

 

[Chris_Halkides]

lack of discover was a serious error in the trial

No I don't have a citiation, but I wonder if you could flesh out position. Do you believe it was the position of the court that the defence did not have all the files it needed?

shuttlt,

My understanding is that the Massei court ordered the release of files in the summer of 2009. This is already very late in the process. However, the prosecution did not comply. Nevertheless, the trial went forward. I surmise that Massei did not see the significance of the electronic data files, machine logs, and standard operating procedures. It is my position that this is a serious error, and I have documented this point extensively over the last twelve months. Raffaele's appeal discussed the lack of discovery with respect to Dr. Pascali in 2008, but it did not seem to cover more recent events, to the best of my limited understanding.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Riccardo Stagliano

Who asked him for the character reference?

A reporter. I have given this citation before.

 

[stilicho]

I don't think spamming out-of-context quotes is going to impress anyone around here.

It wasn't spamming unless you consider Knox's testimony at her own murder trial to be spam. That's an unusual position to take but you might be right about her own words being "spam" in the connotation of being intentionally vague.

It is not evidence of guilt that a person cannot remember some details of events that happened long ago under stressful circumstances. If anything it's evidence of honesty, and an attempt made in good faith to relate only what they know to be true.

Knox was not required to take the stand in her own defence. She wanted to and she carefully prepared to answer the questions she knew would be directed at her. It was her conscious choice, with over a year to prepare to answer those questions succinctly, to speak out in her own defence. Upon accepting that opportunity, she poured out an almost unending litany of "don't knows/can't remembers". I simply provided a sampling of seventeen of them for your appreciation. Should I have included all of them? Should we start a separate thread just for things Knox didn't know or couldn't remember about anything she was doing from 21:00 01 NOV 2007 until about 10:00 02 NOV 2007?

Objectively, and as Greggy explained at the PMF, the same can be said of Stefanoni when grilled about her laboratory standards and conformance with protocols for the double-DNA knife. We don't hold Stefanoni or the sex killer to any different standards when discussing the case at the PMF.

Vague or evasive answers and equivocation are a distinct sign of guilt. To state otherwise is incorrect.

Wouldn't it be a nice world if we could all attempt in good faith to state only what we know to be true, Stilicho?

Yes, although the world I live in is nice. It's one in which remorseless sex killers are imprisoned for their crimes and are offered mercy and the chance for rehabilitation and reintegration into civilised society. If Knox had done this in her home state in the USA, there's a strong possibility that the prosecution would have sought the death penalty. She cannot count the many blessings accorded her by committing this abhorrent act in the comparative safety of Italy.

Happy New Year, Kevin_Lowe.

 

[shuttlt]

I can give you two places where I believe the police are interfering with the evidence to the determent of Knox/Sollicito. 1) the computer hard drives. They are ruined serially.

How to the detriment of Knox/Sollicito. The worst that anybody has claimed is that some pictures of Amanda and Meredith at a Chocolate Festival may have been lost.

How can that be an accident?.

I didn't sound like they went to much trouble. In any case, why destroy the hard drives containing the Chocolate Festival pictures but keep the one that might possibly provide an alibi?

2) The preliminary report to the GIP of a high blood alcohol level in Meredith’s blood. Police corruption does not seem to be a reason shared by many on this board, but to me it seems unlikely to be accidental and it supports an early theory of a villainous sex orgy

It seems like a trivial thing to fake, and to fake so badly in a way so easily discovered. Why, given that everybody was pulling together to provide evidence that helped the prosecution and destroy everything that hindered the defence was the contradictory nature of the blood sample allowed to surface?

In any case, I have no idea of how common such errors/anomalies are.

 

[RoseMontague]

No I don't have a citiation, but I wonder if you could flesh out position. Do you believe it was the position of the court that the defence did not have all the files it needed?

I'm not terribly worried about the everything/everything they were entitled to/needed distincting. At the very least one would have to check the original Italian, and even then we're relying on a couple of words in off the cuff comments again.

We know the defense filed a second motion saying they still did not have all the data they needed including the machine settings for Stefanoni's tests. The judge ruled against the defense and they have contested that ruling in the appeals. I have not seen much of anything quoted about this and we do not have the motion or the judges reply. Frank's account remains the most detailed on this I have seen. The defense had gone for the big one and asked that either the case be dismissed or Stefanoni's testimony thrown out.

That strategy turned out to be a mistake, in my opinion.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

how Giobbi heard the scream

I'm unwilling to speculate on the cause and volume of screaming when I a) have no knowledge of acoustics in general, b) no idea of the layout of said police station, the building materials and the specific acoustics and c) the accuracy of Frank's reporting.
That hmm... is a nice way of insinuating things. But I have to say I'm not particularly happy about it as I am not sure if it has legs to stand on so to speak.

Moss,

The fact that Massei heard her must mean that either he heard her directly or he heard her through electronic means. If the latter, it makes me wonder anew why ILE did not record the interrogation.

 

[RoseMontague]

I didn't sound like they went to much trouble. In any case, why destroy the hard drives containing the Chocolate Festival pictures but keep the one that might possibly provide an alibi?

I think they kept this one for the very reason that they thought it would contradict Raffaele's claim of computer activity late into the night. They may have been wrong on that based on Raffaele's latest appeal filings.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Why not give Toshiba a crack at the drive

How to the detriment of Knox/Sollicito. The worst that anybody has claimed is that some pictures of Amanda and Meredith at a Chocolate Festival may have been lost.


I didn't sound like they went to much trouble. In any case, why destroy the hard drives containing the Chocolate Festival pictures but keep the one that might possibly provide an alibi?


It seems like a trivial thing to fake, and to fake so badly in a way so easily discovered. Why, given that everybody was pulling together to provide evidence that helped the prosecution and destroy everything that hindered the defence was the contradictory nature of the blood sample allowed to surface?

In any case, I have no idea of how common such errors/anomalies are.

shuttlt,

All you said about Stardust was that it "sucks" for Amanda and Raffaele, IIRC. How do you think it actually happened? I think if I damaged the first hard drive, I would stop and ask what I was doing wrong before going on the the next two, wouldn't you? Considering that the prosecution claimed friction between the two roommates, I don't rate the loss of the putative photos as a trivial one. Moreover, the prosecution has so far refused the defense's request to let Toshiba attempt a recovery. Can you justify that?

 

[Moss]

Moss,

The fact that Massei heard her must mean that either he heard her directly or he heard her through electronic means. If the latter, it makes me wonder anew why ILE did not record the interrogation.

*sigh* As for the former case, see above, as for the latter: Again, it really depends on if a recording would have been the standard procedure? If not, was there anything indicating that it might have been necessary to make a record instead of documenting the interview in the regular way?
That is if we assume the latter case of him listening remotely and the wiring allows for recording. Which like so many things we don't know. *shrug*

 

[shuttlt]

A reporter. I have given this citation before.

My, what a long article. OK. Read it. The former boss says nice things. I'm sure the PR wouldn't have put the journalist in touch if she was going to say anything nasty. Neither employer is exactly a virgin source, untouched by people related to the case. Some people say nice things about Amanda, some people say nasty things about her. I don't know her and I don't know what she's like.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

false testimony

We don't hold Stefanoni or the sex killer to any different standards when discussing the case at the PMF.

Vague or evasive answers and equivocation are a distinct sign of guilt. To state otherwise is incorrect.

stilicho,

Elsewhere you described Dr. Stefanoni's testimony as "short, pointed, unequivocal." As RoseMontague and others have pointed out, Stefanoni misrepresented the amount of DNA culled from the knife blade. She also failed to disclose the results of negative TMB tests. I will take long, meandering, equivocal and true testimony over short, pointed, unequivocal and false testimony any day of the week. Moreover, Dr. Stefanoni should in theory have a lab notebook, among other things, to jog her memory. Comparing her testimony to Ms. Knox's is specious.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The reporter in question

My, what a long article. OK. Read it. The former boss says nice things. I'm sure the PR wouldn't have put the journalist in touch if she was going to say anything nasty. Neither employer is exactly a virgin source, untouched by people related to the case. Some people say nice things about Amanda, some people say nasty things about her. I don't know her and I don't know what she's like.

shuttlt,

So your explanation of the article is that the reporter is falling prey to a putative PR machine? That's quite an assumption about a reporter whom you do not know, or do you?

 

[shuttlt]

shuttlt,

All you said about Stardust was that it "sucks" for Amanda and Raffaele, IIRC. How do you think it actually happened? I think if I damaged the first hard drive, I would stop and ask what I was doing wrong before going on the the next two, wouldn't you?

First, the Stardust thing is different. Second, did the hard drives explode, or just not spin up when they were plugged in? I don't recall. I've certainly blown up computer equipment in ways that involved no flames, it's just that after plugging them in to the wrong thing they didn't work anymore.

What happened to Stardust does suck for them if they're innocent. If they're guilty it's a lucky break.

Considering that the prosecution claimed friction between the two roommates, I don't rate the loss of the putative photos as a trivial one. Moreover, the prosecution has so far refused the defense's request to let Toshiba attempt a recovery. Can you justify that?

People can smile for the photo and still dislike one another. I don't see that it's a big thing.

As for Toshiba, surely the court could order it sent for recovery as well. I really think photo's of them on a day out are hardly worth the bother. I'm quite willing to believe they're smiling in them.

It's lucky nobody actually thinks they planned any of this, otherwise the computer records we have at the moment, or may have if the screensaver log pans out wouldn't establish any kind of alibi at all.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

they recorded phone calls

*sigh* As for the former case, see above, as for the latter: Again, it really depends on if a recording would have been the standard procedure? If not, was there anything indicating that it might have been necessary to make a record instead of documenting the interview in the regular way?
That is if we assume the latter case of him listening remotely and the wiring allows for recording. Which like so many things we don't know. *shrug*

Moss,

I felt that your points about the layout of the police station were reasonable. Given the fact that they recorded prior telephone call(s} made by Ms. Knox and at least one conversation between Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito, do you find it odd that they would not choose to record the interrogation? Do you buy any of the various explanations ILE put forth for not recording them?

 

[shuttlt]

shuttlt,

So your explanation of the article is that the reporter is falling prey to a putative PR machine? That's quite an assumption about a reporter whom you do not know, or do you?

No. That isn't what I said. The reporter talks about the putative PR machine. Are you claiming this is an investigative journalism piece and the old employer was tracked down by the journalist.

I really don't care though. Some people who know her like her, some people don't. None of us know her. Maybe she's nice, and maybe she isn't.