Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[christianahannah]

Frankly I think the one whose going to need to do the most apologizing when this is all over is Patrick. He told some unconscionable lies about Amanda Knox. That Amanda apologized to him is indicative of character on her part, that he went on TV more than once insisting she apologize again and then claim he didn't believe her is rather curious. I wonder just what would cause a man to continue to blame a college-aged girl for the actions of the police, being as they're the ones who arrested him and closed down his bar for months.

He has a big suit pending against ILE at the ECHR, does he not? I wonder just how vigorous a defense they will put up against him being as he's been so useful to them in continuing to defame a young lady for the mistakes they made?

I think I have seen written on Frank's blog the same sentiment posted above from you (I think it was you or someone using your name). Can you write some of the lies Patrick has said about Amanda and when Patrick has been on television insisting Amanda apologize?

I haven't read much on Patrick's involvement in the case (other than his direct involvement due to Amanda's statements and memorial) and would be interested in knowing why you write as you do of him.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Amanda's apologies

Was just having one of my infrequent peeks here and no-one seems ready to help you with this one, but no, incorrect. Souce: Amanda Knox. Trial testimony June 9th, 2009 under cross-examination by Patrick's counsel:

CP: Well, I've finished for now. One last question. Did you ever say you
were sorry to Patrick?

AK: No.

Not a lot of space in that.

Amanda's recent spontaneous declaration also acknowledged that she was "wrong" in her words for not having spoken up earlier and she then apologised to both the Kerchers and Patrick in the courtroom in turn to make up for her dual oversight. Contrast her performance where she saved her moment of maximum "distress" for when talking about Meredith to her testimony in the first trial where she was able to talk about Meredith at length without getting upset and reminded the court that although she was "so upset" "in the end, I only knew her for one month, and more than anything, I am trying to think how to go forward with my own life,"

SomeAlibi,

Frank Sfarzo reported that Amanda apologized to Patrick at her appearance on 30 November 2007 (Murder in Italy, page 231). She apparently forgot about this, but it has been brought up many times on this thread and the previous one, most recently within the last twenty-four hours. Some pro-guilt commenters criticized Amanda for not apologizing. Other pro-guilt commenters implied that her apology meant that she was entirely responsible for Patrick's imprisonment. It seems to me that it is a lose-lose situation for Amanda.

I am not sure what you mean with respect to an apology to the Kercher's. That is not how I have heard it described.

 

[christianahannah]

Christianahannah and RoseMontague,

One of the best articles I have found on the subject of PCR DNA is one by Dr. Donald Riley, and there are two portions of the article that deal specifically with contamination. Here is a quote from the first section: “Unfortunately, a few forensic DNA laboratories omit their controls. A few favor the controls by using special equipment on them, or by not carrying them through the entire procedure. Such practices are hazardous, especially when an important evidentiary sample has a low amount of DNA, degraded DNA, or otherwise presents as a minimal or partial (see below) sample. In short, while PCR is a useful research tool, all applications require extreme care and vigilance.”

From the second section: “3. Thermal cyclers (where PCR is carried out) need to be cleaned. It is not unusual for sample tubes leak DNA in the thermal cycler. Such tubes become soft during temperature extremes and they do not always seal properly. It is not usual for sample tubes to have minuscule pin-holes. Sample contamination due to contaminated thermal cyclers has been documented. Hot soapy water, a sponge and a round scrub brush are useful for cleaning thermal cyclers and their sample-tube wells.”

I saw the portion of the Massei report you mentioned a few days ago. It is unclear to me what Dr. Stefanoni means exactly, but I am not convinced. Does her thermal cycler have a new self-cleaning feature of some kind? Also, there is also the possibility of contamination at the stage of capillary electrophoresis, although I have not found this point addressed frequently.

Thank you for the article Chris. I don't know the particulars about the machines Stefanoni had at the lab. I listed some of the machines in a prior post which are included in the motivations. When I have more time I will research the machines and see if any have a feature such as Stefanoni testifed to.

 

[Justinian2]

Hi SomeAlibi! I'm sorry I missed you the last time you popped in. I had been naughty and was being punished!

Kaosium:
Glad to see you back from the hole.

SomeAlibi & Shuttlt
The only reason that we aren’t suspects in the murder of Meredith is that “Absence of evidence is evidence of absence”. There are no fingerprints, no DNA, no motive, no blood stained clothes and no witnesses that place us at the scene of the crime when it happened.

Amanda and Raffaele also fall under the same category as we do: “Absence of evidence is evidence of absence”

The double DNA knife is highly flawed evidence with four very real pieces of forensic evidence that prove that it is NOT the murder weapon. Yet it is the only piece of evidence that connects Amanda to the crime. Yet it has been proven scientifically to be false evidence.

 

[Poppy1016]

Aren't lie detector tests more than a little pseudo-scientific? If Amanda had failed one, would we be hearing how she was tired, she was stressed, she didn't understand the question etc. etc. etc.....? What would one prove?

I don't believe this could be used against the police, but rather to create more reasonable doubt for Amanda. But you are correct. It no doubt would prove nothing.

 

[christianahannah]

SomeAlibi,

Frank Sfarzo reported that Amanda apologized to Patrick at her appearance on 30 November 2007 (Murder in Italy, page 231). She apparently forgot about this, but it has been brought up many times on this thread and the previous one, most recently within the last twenty-four hours. Some pro-guilt commenters criticized Amanda for not apologizing. Other pro-guilt commenters implied that her apology meant that she was entirely responsible for Patrick's imprisonment. It seems to me that it is a lose-lose situation for Amanda.

I am not sure what you mean with respect to an apology to the Kercher's. That is not how I have heard it described.

Well, I don't fall into either of the two categories you mention, however, there were also some who view Amanda as innocent who felt she should not have apologized at all (and I don't fall into this category either - that Amanda shouldn't have apologized).

Is it not possible to take the view that Amanda apologized to Patrick and accept that she did so and it was a good thing to do?

The apology in November 2007 wasn't to Patrick personally but to the judge (I am not sure Patrick was at that hearing) so I can see how some may view that as not an apology to Patrick.

 

[Moss]

Frankly I think the one who's going to need to do the most apologizing when this is all over is Patrick. He told some unconscionable lies about Amanda Knox. That Amanda apologized to him is indicative of character on her part, that he went on TV more than once insisting she apologize again and then claim he didn't believe her is rather curious. I wonder just what would cause a man to continue to blame a college-aged girl for the actions of the police, being as they're the ones who arrested him and closed down his bar for months.

He has a big suit pending against ILE at the ECHR, does he not? I wonder just how vigorous a defense they will put up against him being as he's been so useful to them in continuing to defame a young lady for the mistakes they made?

Given the amount of... interesting insinuations: I second the question about his "unconscionable lies".

To quote Carl Sagan: ""absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

 

[Chris_Halkides]

no soul

Christianahannah,

Patrick said words to the effect that Amanda did not have a soul sometime in mid to late November of 2007. This judgment seems to be predicated on the notion that Amanda named him in her statement in the absence of police pressure. The more one views her statement as not voluntary, the less stock one puts in his comment.

 

[Danceme]

The most curious thing about the drawer is that they took only that one knife, being as they must have known it was too big to match the wounds. They might have taken it as a control, but their exclusion of the other knives in the drawer is mystifying.

No, he said the knife matched the wounds as they had been described to him.

A little while back PMF posted a few pictures, or a link to photos, taken during the first day of the appeal I think it was. One showed a large screen in the courtroom displaying a photo showing Meredith's main neck wound. It was very wide and ugly and anyone viewing it would automatically assume it was made with a wide bladed knife, definitely not a pen knife.
I can't seem to find the photos over there now but if you saw it you would no doubt picture a large knife as the murder weapon.

 

[Moss]

It is interesting to note how much hinges on the theory that Amanda may have been influenced by the police. As so many things in this case it really all depends on the individual interpretation.
I'm curious about the human interaction on Raffaele's computer: Has someone a list on hand about what activities those were?

 

[Antony]

What other knives should they have taken from the drawer? As for the size of the knife, we know it is compatible with at least some of the wounds,

From what I understand, it was "compatible" with one of the neck wounds, but no more so than almost any kitchen knife in the world.

also the cop who collected it had seen the body and claimed he collected it because it matched his visual impression of the wounds.

First time I've seen this explanation for selecting the knife - wasn't it originally explained by saying that the knife was "suspiciously clean"? It was a conjuring trick, as was the "finding" of Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp: "we have here a knife taken from the kitchen of the accused, and Abracadabra! We find the victim's DNA on the blade!"

If I see a conjuring trick on stage, I don't imagine that I've witnessed a miracle happen; I know straight off that it is an illusion (and sometimes the method used is evident). In this case, the interpretation that Meredith's DNA was on the knife as a result of the murder simply does not make sense: the knife would have to be transported from Raff's kitchen to the murder scene and back again for no obvious practical reason. A rational observer looks for another reason for the positive DNA result, and the obvious one is the improper way and unsuitable conditions in which the test was carried out.

The same applies to the bra clasp: there is no plausible way that anyone taking part in the murder would have handled the metal hook, so Raff's DNA must rationally have been transferred there other than at the time of the murder. As it happens, there is a video in the public domain showing 2 different investigators handling the clasp by the metal hook with soiled gloves, and there is no need for any further head-scratching about the origin of the DNA. Both of these crown jewels of the prosecution case against Amanda and Raffaele are worthless.

But the biggest conjuring trick of all is the way in which the police "solved" the case within days of the murder: "we have here the 2 young people who called us to the scene at the beginning. Abracadabra! They are the murderers!"

 

[Dan O.]

I'm curious about the human interaction on Raffaele's computer: Has someone a list on hand about what activities those were?

I haven't put the complete list together yet but the documents filed with the appeal claim that particular entries in the WindowServer.log file show the times of activation and deactivation of the screensaver thru the night with the last activation around 6:22 AM and no period during the night up to that time in which the screensaver was active for more than 6 minutes. There is also the creation of a playlist sometime after 5 AM.

The details with exact times and references have already been posted in this thread. One of these days I'll retrieve that data to update my own timeline.

 

[loverofzion]

She did find it disgusting, not appealing. She was being funny/ironic:

"im in love. i meet her roommate molly. the house has a kitchen, 2 bathrooms, and four bathrooms. not to mention a washing maschine, and internet access. not to mention, she owns two guitars and wants to play with me. not to mention the view is amazing. not to mention i have a terrace that looks over the perugian city/countryside. not to mention she wants me to teach erh yoga. not to mention they both smoke like chimneys."

It's a joke; that's why it's written the way it is.

P.S. To smoke like a chimney means to smoke constantly, one cigarette after another.

It actually refers to marijuana.
She was a lot less interested in tobacco than that.

 

[Danceme]

I haven't put the complete list together yet but the documents filed with the appeal claim that particular entries in the WindowServer.log file show the times of activation and deactivation of the screensaver thru the night with the last activation around 6:22 AM and no period during the night up to that time in which the screensaver was active for more than 6 minutes. There is also the creation of a playlist sometime after 5 AM.

The details with exact times and references have already been posted in this thread. One of these days I'll retrieve that data to update my own timeline.

What was the wait time set to on the screensaver DanO?

 

[loverofzion]

Gee, I justed quoted you and have rendered you quotable. Here is another quote:

No, you have not quoted me as an expert.

And as to your long quote, what is it you are trying to say?

 

[Moss]

Huh, curious. I'd have had better things to do with my girlfriends than surfing throughout the night.
Is there any mention of the inactivity interval before the screensaver gets activated?
Does anyone by chance remember which media player was used to play the Naruto episode?

 

[Kaosium]

I think I have seen written on Frank's blog the same sentiment posted above from you (I think it was you or someone using your name). Can you write some of the lies Patrick has said about Amanda and when Patrick has been on television insisting Amanda apologize?

Oh, it was definitely me, Christiana, couldn't you tell by how I misspelled your name? I usually put an extra 'I' in it, and was so determined not to that time I removed one instead!


This is at the beginning of the whole 'Foxy Knoxy' defamation campaign. Note this is the Daily Mail, but these are direct quotes. Interestingly Patrick would go on to say the latter part when he details his treatment at the hands of the police was untrue, but as far as I know he's never repudiated the lie he fired her, and all the subsequent lies about 'why' he fired her.

"She was angry I was firing her and wanted revenge," he says. "By the end, she hated me. But I don't even think she's evil.

To be evil you have to have a soul. "Amanda doesn't. She's empty; dead inside. She's the ultimate actress, able to switch her emotions on and off in an instant. I don't believe a word she says. Everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie. But those lies have stained me for ever.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ls-framed-Merediths-murder.html#ixzz19iVt4iMb

"Quarto Grado" (Fourth Grade) has been broadcast from 9.05pm to 11.30pm, the program was largely devoted to the murder of Sarah Scazzi. At 10.50pm there was a space of 25 minutes dedicated to the murder in Perugia. It seems that originally the murder in Perugia had to be spent much more time but, given the lack of interest that this issue arouses, video services have been cut and to the people present were given a few minutes to speak.

At first a journalist has read a summary sheet about the case (without video) for 2 minutes. After this the host of the program connected to the house of Patrick Lumumba where there were Lumumba, his lawyer and the correspondent of Rete4 in Perugia (Alessandra Anzolin).
<...>
Then Lumumba spoke, he said that Amanda has to apologize, and that she lied to mislead the investigation.

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/post3825.html?hilit=Patrick Lumumba#p3825

There was a Youtube link to it, but it's dead now. This wasn't the only TV appearance on the subject, I can't recall where I saw the other one though, I believe it was Frank's blog a couple months ago. Apparently when they've been doing a story on Amanda Knox they go to him as part of it and he demands an apology.

Then when he gets the apology he says he refuses to believe it, right on the eve of her appeal.


His case against ILE in Strasbourg, oddly enough, seems to re-recant his treatment at the hands of the Perugian police. From Frank's blog:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2010/11/second-chance-for-amanda-and-raffaele.html

The Court of Appeal had granted Patrick, for his fourteen days of unjust detention, 8,600 euro compensation. This is way more what he may have earned in fourteen days working his pub job. But now he feels so damaged that he appealed to the European Court of Human Rights, and for 516,000 euro!

When he sought compensation, Patrick represented himself as a man and a father who was ruined, unable to carry on a normal role in society anymore. A man who lost his peace and his jovial temper, who can’t sleep quietly at night anymore, who is tormented by fears and insecurities and needs to be permanently assisted by psychiatrists.

So Called 'Custody'

Nelson Mandela was not that ruined after spending twenty-seven years in the notorious Robben Island Prison. How is it possible that Patrick became such a wreck only after fourteen days of neutral custody in the model-jail of Capanne, and after a few hours of perfectly good-mannered interrogation at the police station?

I haven't read much on Patrick's involvement in the case (other than his direct involvement due to Amanda's statements and memorial) and would be interested in knowing why you write as you do of him.

I don't know why Patrick Lumumba is acting the way he is. Apparently he's a dedicated family man and a respected member of part of the community. I saw a story a crowd gathered to demand his release when he was in jail. However, since then, he's acted like Amanda herself is responsible for his being arrested, which just so happens to play into the hands of the Perugian police and their ridiculous lie that they arrested Patrick solely on the 'accusation' of Amanda. Being as the Perugian police closed down Patrick's bar for six months or so after the murder as it was considered a 'crime scene' I'd like to know just why Patrick Lumumba is acting like he has a vendetta against Amanda Knox.

That court case for half a million Euro might be the reason. If the ILE fails to contest it strongly, we may have the answer.

 

[Kaosium]

It is interesting to note how much hinges on the theory that Amanda may have been influenced by the police. As so many things in this case it really all depends on the individual interpretation.

Well, there's (probably) no hard evidence left, what else can we discuss?

Ironically the interrogation isn't a part of the case left. The 'confession' was thrown out by the Supreme Court.

 

[Dan O.]

What was the wait time set to on the screensaver DanO?

The first time that question was asked on this forum, I looked at my own screensaver settings and found that they were set to 20 minutes. The text message from his father was received on Raffaele's phone at 6:02 AM indicating a break in his activities at that time when he turns his phone on. The screensaver activated at 6:22 AM. From this, I deduce that Raffaele also has his screensaver set at 20 minutes. I believe 20 minutes is the default setting and it is also a reasonable value in my view. Since both the defense and prosecution have copies of this drive as it was in November 2007, either of them can look at what the actual setting was. I'll believe it was most likely 20 minutes until someone provides more information.

 

[HumanityBlues]

I haven't put the complete list together yet but the documents filed with the appeal claim that particular entries in the WindowServer.log file show the times of activation and deactivation of the screensaver thru the night with the last activation around 6:22 AM and no period during the night up to that time in which the screensaver was active for more than 6 minutes. There is also the creation of a playlist sometime after 5 AM.

The details with exact times and references have already been posted in this thread. One of these days I'll retrieve that data to update my own timeline.

You have to remember, in crimes like these, it is common when doing an all night clean up for perps to go home and create playlists to break the monotony of covering up a crime.