Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

No you don't.

He's not a judge.

He's a retired Ecclesiastical Judge.

Do you even know what an Ecclesiastical court is?!

Where do you suppose the inquisitorial system originated?

Wait. It gets worse:

Google this: "Count Neri Capponi is a judge and a lawyer, and his son Niccolo is an acquaintance of Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi..."

'nuf said.

Would this be considered 'guilt by association,' counselor?

 

[Agatha]

It's my understanding that Michael on PMF has been banned from here, so posting his words from elsewhere may well be a breach of the rules, LJ.

 

[shuttlt]

If you want to dispute the forensics regarding Guede, I don't think anyone here is stopping you. Knock yourself out.

It was all planted by the cops. It's already been shown that they are corrupt evidence planters. Reasonable doubt?

 

[Mary_H]

The forensics as regarding RG were, nevertheless, never disputed on this site.

On the other hand, those pertaining to the lovebirds are still being disputed; in the minds of many posters on this site, they have already been discarded.

I agree with Matthew, loverofzion. You could start a new thread. How about this?

"Rudy Guede guilty -- all because of a bloody hand print, shoe prints, DNA, feces, a criminal history and because he left town"

 

[shuttlt]

Here's a passage from Candace Dempsey's "Murder in Italy" relevant to your interest in Knox's personality:

"Neither girl enjoyed confrontations. According to Amanda's friends and family, she fell apart when people yelled at her, losing her self-confident facade. She turned red and burst into tears. When someone made her angry, she left the room and wrote them a letter, outlining her grievances, trying to understand them herself."

Did her family say this before, or after they were trying to get her off a murder charge?

 

[Mary_H]

LondonJohn,

I am well aware of the properties of blood cells you quote. We presumably can't say with any certainty that the material isn't a mixture of blood and flesh?

We can't say anything about it anymore.

 

[Fine]

follow the spit

I suspect it might matter a great deal to the appeal court.

I also suspect the DNA came from contamination in the lab. But I'm still intrigued by the episode in the police station when the knife was removed from its sterile collection bag, then placed into a non-sterile box that happened to be at hand. I can't for the life of me figure out why such a transfer would be either necessary or desirable. And, at that point, ugly words such as "evidence planting" start to float into my mind. I sincerely hope that there's an innocent explanation for the transfer that I just haven't thought of yet....

______________________________

What's wrong with the innocent "spit" theory, John? All the girls "smoked like chimneys," according to Amanda, which means they all smoked cannabis. One day--- during the week prior to the murder---Amanda and Meredith shared a joint, perhaps with others. Amanda got Meredith's saliva on her fingers, which was transferred to Raffaele's knife when she returned to his flat. That would also explain why Meredith's DNA on the knife was not blood DNA.

To be explicit, the path of DNA transfer is this:

Meredith's lips > the shared joint > Amanda's fingers > Raffaele's knife.

If you are familiar with the practice of sharing a joint you know that the transfer can be more immediate. Amanda may have held the joint up to Meredith's lips while Meredith inhaled. Then the path of transfer would be this:

Meredith's lips > Amanda's fingers > Raffaele's knife.

It occurs to me that the defense team could easily re-create such a scenario, using a perfectly legal tobacco cigarette. Why haven't they done that?

///

 

[shuttlt]

We can't say anything about it anymore.

I agree that everything that can be said has pretty much been said, but somehow this thread continues.

 

[Kaosium]

Hi RWVBWL.


PS Why do you suppose Amanda would "apologize" if, in fact, it wasn't her fault on account of having been "brain-washed"/ coerced?

Maybe she's just a nice person?

PPS Why do you suppose Amanda would write anything in a 'prison journal' after her lawyers instructed her not to do so?

Because she has nothing better to do and she likes to write? Maybe there's just so long you can stare at a dirty toilet before doing something that takes your mind off of it?

The right to silence is arguably an accused's greatest 'weapon' against the state, why would she toss it away? Mmmmmm...

How do you mean this?

 

[Mary_H]

______________________________

What's wrong with the innocent "spit" theory, John? All the girls "smoked like chimneys," according to Amanda, which means they all smoked cannabis. One day--- during the week prior to the murder---Amanda and Meredith shared a joint, perhaps with others. Amanda got Meredith's saliva on her fingers, which was transferred to Raffaele's knife when she returned to his flat. That would also explain why Meredith's DNA on the knife was not blood DNA.

To be explicit, the path of DNA transfer is this:

Meredith's lips > the shared joint > Amanda's fingers > Raffaele's knife.

If you are familiar with the practice of sharing a joint you know that the transfer can be more immediate. Amanda may have held the joint up to Meredith's lips while Meredith inhaled. Then the path of transfer would be this:

Meredith's lips > Amanda's fingers > Raffaele's knife.

It occurs to me that the defense team could easily re-create such a scenario, using a perfectly legal tobacco cigarette. Why haven't they done that?

///

Amanda reported that her two Italian roommates "smoke like chimneys," meaning they smoke cigarettes. It's doubtful Amanda was going to write about smoking pot on her Myspace page.

If you want Meredith's DNA to be on Amanda's fingers and then on Raffaele's knife, you are going to have to have Amanda not touching anything else between the time she shares the joint with Meredith and the time she gets to Raffaele's to cook. You are also going to have to have her rubbing her finger into just the right section of the knife in order to embed Meredith's DNA in the minuscule crevice. And of course, you are going to have to eliminate the washing with bleach.

 

[Matthew Best]

I agree that everything that can be said has pretty much been said, but somehow this thread continues.

...says the man with 275 posts in the thread!

 

[christianahannah]

I suspect it might matter a great deal to the appeal court.

I also suspect the DNA came from contamination in the lab. But I'm still intrigued by the episode in the police station when the knife was removed from its sterile collection bag, then placed into a non-sterile box that happened to be at hand. I can't for the life of me figure out why such a transfer would be either necessary or desirable. And, at that point, ugly words such as "evidence planting" start to float into my mind. I sincerely hope that there's an innocent explanation for the transfer that I just haven't thought of yet....

From the PMF English translated motivations it is difficult to know exactly what the process was when the knife was returned to the police station.

It appears the knife was placed into a bag and then put into a folder or another bag when Finzi collected it at Raffaele's flat. When the knife was turned over to Gubbiotti was it taken out of the folder and placed in the box or taken out of both the folder and evidence collection bag?

From reading the motivations I think perhaps Gubbiotti didn't take the knife out of the sterile collection bag but rather the folder that the bagged knife was placed in but I am not sure. The claim of contamination may be what could have been transferred when Gubbiotti took the knife, still in the evidence collection bag, from the folder and placed it in the box (but never taking the knife out of the bag).

If Gubbiotti took the knife out of the collection bag well I can't believe that would be proper procedure for evidence collection and handling and can understand why there would be questions concerning the knife. Even during the trial when the knife was displayed it was in a bag and this after the testing had already been done on it.


Page 264:

There were other knives in the drawer, but he took [only] this one, which became Exhibit 36. This knife was the first object he touched and it was located on top of all the tableware. He put it in a new paper envelope he had with him and then in a folder. The bag with the knife inside was handed over to Superintendent Gubbiotti when he returned to the Police Headquarters.

In turn, Superintendent Gubbiotti, who had participated in the search of the house on via della Pergola on that same date of November 6, stated that he was given the knife by Finzi when he returned to Police Headquarters and that it was inside a new and well-sealed envelope. Gubbiotti furthermore declared that when he collected [Note from the translator: the Italian word used here can also mean catalogued or indexed] the knife in question, he was wearing new gloves that had never been used before, which he had taken from the office. It was with these gloves that he took the knife from the bag and put it inside a box that he sealed with scotch tape and sent with the other evidence to the Forensic Police in Rome, where it underwent analysis as stated by Dr. Stefanoni.

 

[RoseMontague]

It's my understanding that Michael on PMF has been banned from here, so posting his words from elsewhere may well be a breach of the rules, LJ.

I agree with what I see as the intent of that rule. It hardly seems appropriate that you can be critical of someone that has been prevented from responding on the same forum. It should work both ways but in this case it does not. Oh well.

I don't see any problem commenting on the PMF member's recent postings of pictures of their absolutely beautiful cats. I hope it is within the rules to wish them a happy new year as well.

 

[christianahannah]

I think the more interesting question is whether or not the DNA result came from DNA on the knife or in the lab or testing machine. The other interesting question is why did Stefanoni misrepresent the facts regarding this particular test on the knife blade as presented in a pre-trial hearing in 2008 and documented in the technical report (SAL) provided to the defense also before trial.

To me, this suggests she was trying to hide the fact that the testing methods could be questioned on this evidence and the defense was fortunate to get this information at all even after the trial was well underway.

I think the machine can be ruled out as far as the result according to Stefanoni in the motivations:

Page 219:

She excluded the possibility that, in the machine used for the analysis of the various samples, any secondary deposits might have formed from which it would have been possible to transfer DNA onto other specimens. With respect to this, she stated that the machine is equipped with a security system which prevents such an occurrence.

I am not familiar with the functions of this machine to know if this is true but perhaps others would know if this testimony from Stefanoni is correct.

 

[Kaosium]

The forensics as regarding RG were, nevertheless, never disputed on this site.

On the other hand, those pertaining to the lovebirds are still being disputed; in the minds of many posters on this site, they have already been discarded.

That was because there was so much of it the forensics team didn't even bother with much of it the first time around, knowing they didn't need much more than what they had to convict the killer(s). If it hasn't dawned on you by now, in Italy they don't do things by FBI standard or that which you might see on CSI.

They went back there and...found much more evidence of Rudy Guede. Curiously enough, they also 'found' a bra clasp than one struggles to imagine they could have possibly missed the first time around, being as it was seen in the initial collection video right under the body of the victim. It had rather miraculously moved in the interim, and now bore a soup of DNA rather difficult to imagine getting there legitimately.

I think when this is all said and done, a certain picture of a girl on a wall in Rome should be replaced by a video on a loop showing forevermore to the eternal shame of the Polizia Scientifica the forensics standards, acumen and integrity demonstrated in this case.

 

[RoseMontague]

I think the machine can be ruled out as far as the result according to Stefanoni in the motivations:

Page 219:



I am not familiar with the functions of this machine to know if this is true but perhaps others would know if this testimony from Stefanoni is correct.

That is a terrific find and I would like to know this as well. I wonder if she is talking about normal DNA quantities or those of the LCN variety?

 

[RoseMontague]

I think when this is all said and done, a certain picture of a girl on a wall in Rome should be replaced by a video on a loop showing forevermore to the eternal shame of the Polizia Scientifica the forensics standards, acumen and integrity demonstrated in this case.

This reminds me that I saw on PMF during my recent visit to the wall of beautiful cats, that they mentioned an article that Rocco has requested that Amanda's picture be removed from that wall of shame.

 

[Justinian2]

LondonJohn,

I am well aware of the properties of blood cells you quote. We presumably can't say with any certainty that the material isn't a mixture of blood and flesh?

Presumably at trillioniths of a gram, or pico grams, it isn't much of a mixture. It may not even be a complete cell.

Anybody know what the estimated weight of the material was? I've heard that the original estimate of 100 trillionths of a gram (100 pico grams) was an exaggeration of the weight of the material. I've also seen that the weight of a human DNA molecule was calculated at 6 pico grams or 6 trillionths of a gram.

 

[Mary_H]

This reminds me that I saw on PMF during my recent visit to the wall of beautiful cats, that they mentioned an article that Rocco has requested that Amanda's picture be removed from that wall of shame.

Yes, he did. That was what Candace Dempsey's blog was about yesterday. Girlanda publicly made the request of the Minister of the Interior.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/233754.asp

 

[Kaosium]

It was all planted by the cops. It's already been shown that they are corrupt evidence planters. Reasonable doubt?

Except of course they found it before they arrested him, and for that matter before they knew who he was, not long afterward.