Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

Not to be mawkish about it, but is Meredith's right to justice deemed to have been forfeited by "police misconduct"?

Meredith's right to justice has been disgraced by police and prosecutor misconduct.

 

[capealadin]

This was the statement by Rose that we are talking about:



How, exactly, does that disagree with what I have responded?

"The only solid evidence against AK and RS is that they (allegedly) lied."

... is equivalent to:

"there is no solid evidence against AK and RS other than that they (allegedly) lied."

It is not the same as "there is solid evidence that AK and RS lied" - with the implication that it is to be added to other (non-existent) evidence. So you are misrepresenting what she typed.

The only logical difference between Rose's posting and mine is that I would add the word "allegedly".

What a difference a word makes. Allegedly, declared, but not proven. As, in , an alleged miracle.

In any event, it's Rose's statement, it's not yours to rebut.

 

[capealadin]

I wonder why they needed Amanda so badly, as a scapegoat. so, perhaps not because of a cartwheel then. By golly, because she sent the message : OK, See you later. It certainly is mind boggling. I'd have thought the cartwheel was more damning, if I had to choose.

 

[Chris C]

I honestly don't get your posts. Maybe it's just me

What dont you get? Mignini opened his mouth and claimed the killing was satanic. That wouldn't be the first time he claimed the satanic theory. Last time he charged someone using that theory he ended up getting multiple charges against himself related to abuse of office. So when the evidence didn't support Satanic, he moved on to the next theory. When the evidence didn't support the next theory he made another one up. So on and so forth. In the end there was no theory. It was, She did it.

 

[Mary_H]

Not to be mawkish about it, but is Meredith's right to justice deemed to have been forfeited by "police misconduct"?

I'm thinking about changing my handle to Sisyphus.

We could ALL change our handles to Sisyphus.

 

[Kaosium]

I wonder why they needed Amanda so badly, as a scapegoat. so, perhaps not because of a cartwheel then. By golly, because she sent the message : OK, See you later. It certainly is mind boggling. I'd have thought the cartwheel was more damning, if I had to choose.

I missed this part, I only got to see it in retrospect, but I guess there was a time when some people really believed she was this bizarre comic-book type character. All the pictures chosen for the crazed looks, the stories about holding wild orgies, turning west Seattle neighborhoods into something from the Bronx in the Seventies. I guess the cartwheel was just part of the idea she was totally insane, just like she had sex with a different boy every week in Italy, didn't care if she got HIV, and would kill people over pizza.

It's hilarious seeing some of the old sites that believed it all. Whereas in reality FBI legend John Douglas, the one who really knows what a sociopath is, heads to Italy to advise her defense as he easily figured out she was innocent.

 

[capealadin]

What dont you get? Mignini opened his mouth and claimed the killing was satanic. That wouldn't be the first time he claimed the satanic theory. Last time he charged someone using that theory he ended up getting multiple charges against himself related to abuse of office. So when the evidence didn't support Satanic, he moved on to the next theory. When the evidence didn't support the next theory he made another one up. So on and so forth. In the end there was no theory. It was, She did it.

I don't recall anything in the trial, about anything satanic. Could you link me to it, please.

 

[capealadin]

I missed this part, I only got to see it in retrospect, but I guess there was a time when some people really believed she was this bizarre comic-book type character. All the pictures chosen for the crazed looks, the stories about holding wild orgies, turning west Seattle neighborhoods into something from the Bronx in the Seventies. I guess the cartwheel was just part of the idea she was totally insane, just like she had sex with a different boy every week in Italy, didn't care if she got HIV, and would kill people over pizza.

It's hilarious seeing some of the old sites that believed it all. Whereas in reality FBI legend John Douglas, the one who really knows what a sociopath is, heads to Italy to advise her defense as he easily figured out she was innocent.

Unfortunately, quite a few of those stories emanated from Amanda herself.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>
On the one hand, the theories dreamed up by the prosecution are ridiculous. On the other, it is awfully difficult to believe that Raf and Amanda have been altogether candid with us. The defense team appreciates this. That's the reason I think they would have elicited from Amanda during her examination any further evidence they had of coercive tactics.<snip>

The weak questioning that took place during the trial was bad enough, but what I find more baffling is the dearth of incisive questioning on the part of the -- what was it, 18? 19? 21? 25? -- judges who allowed this case to go to trial. Even those of us who are not lawyers have come up with better questions than it seems they did.

Why did the police not question and investigate Patrick before arresting him?
What evidence existed against Amanda and Raffaele before they were interrogated?
Why did the prosecutor not provide Amanda or Raffaele with attorneys, or allow them phone calls?
Why couldn't the interrogations have waited until Amanda's mother arrived in Perugia?
Why did the investigators go to Raffaele's house and retrieve a kitchen knife when they already had Raffaele's flick knife?

Sheesh, I've only been to small claims court but even that judge didn't let anybody get away with one thing. One time I talked to a lawyer about the engineer who inspected our property before we bought it, and the lawyer asked me suspiciously WHY my husband and I wanted to renovate our 1916 house!

Meanwhile, Amanda and Raffaele get stuck with the brilliant intellect of Giancarlo Massei, who says he can't see any reason why Nara Capezzali would have reported a scream if she hadn't heard one.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

conduct of law enforcement

Not to be mawkish about it, but is Meredith's right to justice deemed to have been forfeited by "police misconduct"?

I'm thinking about changing my handle to Sisyphus.

nopoirot,

If the police handle evidence incompetently, my position is that the evidence should not be used against a defendant. If one does not adhere to this principle, then I see no inducement for the police to handle it competently. If this causes a guilty person to go free, the blame would have to fall on law enforcement. If the police (or other officials) make misstatements in a court of law, then an observer has the right to ask whether these misstatements are deliberate. Whether or not they are deliberate, the police deserve to lose some credibility in the eyes of the court--the only question is how much. I would make the same points even if I believed Raffaele and Amanda were guilty. Instead, I believe that police incompetence and misstatements are helping to prevent justice from being done in this case.

Charlie Wilkes compiled a list of law enforcement's misstatements here some time ago. It is probably worth one's time to reread it.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Mignini's closing remarks

I don't recall anything in the trial, about anything satanic. Could you link me to it, please.

capealadin,

It was brought up prior to the trial itself. Ms. Nadeau reported in Angel Face that PM Mignini wanted to reintroduce the satanic theory in his closing remarks, but Ms. Comodi nixed the idea. I have previously given the page number in the book, but I do not have it handy at the moment.

 

[Justinian2]

The weak questioning that took place during the trial was bad enough, but what I find more baffling is the dearth of incisive questioning on the part of the -- what was it, 18? 19? 21? 25? -- judges who allowed this case to go to trial. Even those of us who are not lawyers have come up with better questions than it seems they did.

Why did the police not question and investigate Patrick before arresting him? What evidence existed against Amanda and Raffaele before they were interrogated? Why did the prosecutor not provide Amanda or Raffaele with attorneys, or allow them phone calls? Why couldn't the interrogations have waited until Amanda's mother arrived in Perugia? Why did the investigators go to Raffaele's house and retrieve a kitchen knife when they already had Raffaele's flick knife?
Sheesh, I've only been to small claims court but even that judge didn't let anybody get away with one thing. Once I talked to a lawyer about the engineer who inspected our property before we bought it, and the lawyer asked me suspiciously WHY my husband and I wanted to renovate our 1916 house!

Meanwhile, Amanda and Raffaele get stuck with the brilliant intellect of Giancarlo Massei, who says he can't see any reason why Nara Capezzali would have reported a scream if she hadn't heard one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...istmas-bars-family-special-turkey-dinner.html

Amanda had her fourth Christmas behind bars. The sociopaths that would think she has it too good don't have sufficient empathy to understand what living in a bathroom for four years is like.

Why did the police not question and investigate Patrick before arresting him?

Indeed. Any police that would run off and arrest Patrick without evidence and then blame Amanda are totally incompetent about the effects of interrogations like that. Furthermore they also have a HUGE degree of irresponsibility as do all those that agree with the police of Perugia.

It would be totally hypocritical for these people to go to church and worship a forgiving Christ that was also persecuted by the courts and society. Amanda isn't supposed to also have to spend her life in jail as attonement for the sins of the guilters.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

what do you mean

And, again, Amanda was not being interrogated for the best part of a week. Bringing up 5 months out of your teens, has no bearing on the case. A person of 18 can fight in a war. Or, is your inference that the World is sending children to fight?

capealadin,

What do you mean about not being interrogated for the best part of a week? Amanda was interrogated several times. Rose estimated the number of hours to be seventeen (including the night of the 5th), and I gave my reasons for thinking that this is a conservative estimate.

Ms. Knox was doing yoga poses and stretches, not cartwheels. Can we put this issue to rest?

 

[Mary_H]

capealadin,

It was brought up prior to the trial itself. Ms. Nadeau reported in Angel Face that PM Mignini wanted to reintroduce the satanic theory in his closing remarks, but Ms. Comodi nixed the idea. I have previously given the page number in the book, but I do not have it handy at the moment.

Also, Judge Micheli rejected the suggestion of rituals related to Halloween in the motivations report that followed Rudy Guede's trial.

 

[shuttlt]

I don't know how the message could have seemed incriminating, at that point. " Don't come into work tonight". "OK, See you later. "

There is no evidence that they had Patrick's side of the message. I'm not aware of anybody in the case.. police, prosecution, defence claiming that they did. Is there any reason to suppose the network would have retained the message?

As for Amanda's side of the message, that then gets into a whole conversation about the messages meaning in it's original Italian.

 

[shuttlt]

What dont you get? Mignini opened his mouth and claimed the killing was satanic. That wouldn't be the first time he claimed the satanic theory. Last time he charged someone using that theory he ended up getting multiple charges against himself related to abuse of office. So when the evidence didn't support Satanic, he moved on to the next theory. When the evidence didn't support the next theory he made another one up. So on and so forth. In the end there was no theory. It was, She did it.

Chris, you know perfectly well that there are no quotes of Mignini ever saying anything about the case being satanic, and in his email he specifically says that he never thought the case was satanic. Presumably you are going on his use of the word 'rite', but substituting 'satanic' because it sounds better.

Can we try to be precise about what we mean?

 

[shuttlt]

I would agree with you, if the message had stipulated * sta sera* or tonight. It did not. No italian speaker has defined the message than anything else, except see you later, which could mean ANY time, in the FUTURE.

This is not my understanding. Do you have an Italian speaker quote giving the correct nuance?

 

[capealadin]

capealadin,

It was brought up prior to the trial itself. Ms. Nadeau reported in Angel Face that PM Mignini wanted to reintroduce the satanic theory in his closing remarks, but Ms. Comodi nixed the idea. I have previously given the page number in the book, but I do not have it handy at the moment.

The point is, it wasn't brought up in the trial. Neither was everything of Amanda's allowed in the trial. i.e. her second memorial. So, I think this point is dead in the water. The trial took place, a verdict given. We are now on the appeals. I don't think satanic rituals will be addressed there either.

 

[capealadin]

capealadin,

What do you mean about not being interrogated for the best part of a week? Amanda was interrogated several times. Rose estimated the number of hours to be seventeen (including the night of the 5th), and I gave my reasons for thinking that this is a conservative estimate.

Ms. Knox was doing yoga poses and stretches, not cartwheels. Can we put this issue to rest?

There are 168 hours in a week. You're talking about 17 hours. No matter how I compute that, it is most certainly NOT the better part of a week.

 

[Malkmus]

I thought the knife he was saying it was 'impossible' was the one he had on him when he wandered into the police station so 'smoked?' The one they found the DNA on was a kitchen knife in his drawer, wasn't it?

Ah, you're probably right.