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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Yeah, I don't know what to think about Filomena. Sending her boyfriend back to the cottage before bothering to go there herself. Not bothering to turn up to the vigil for Meredith. Getting legal representation on the day of discovery of the body. Willfully disturbing a crime scene, despite being a trainee lawyer herself. Spending plenty of time in the immediate aftermath of the murder discovery in worrying about how to get out of the housing contract, instead of devoting herself to grief about Meredith.

What on earth might have happened to her if she hadn't happened (by pure happenstance) to have a decent alibi, eh?

Filomena called her boyfriend to go along because he could get there quicker. Nothing troubling about that, is there?

Filomena would have been fine. She's innocent. No scratches on her neck or missing earrings, no aberrant social behaviour, no demonstrable lies, not even any of her DNA mixed with the victim's..not even in her own room, by golly, that was Amanda's. No wonder the police were not interested in her.
 
Filomena called her boyfriend to go along because he could get there quicker. Nothing troubling about that, is there?

Filomena would have been fine. She's innocent. No scratches on her neck or missing earrings, no aberrant social behaviour, no demonstrable lies, not even any of her DNA mixed with the victim's..not even in her own room, by golly, that was Amanda's. No wonder the police were not interested in her.

How do you know what marks or scratches Filomena might or might not have had on her body, or how many earrings she might have lost? Do you have a report detailing Filomena's physical appearance from early November 2007?

How do you know what Filomena's social behaviour was in the days following the murder? Do you have a report about that too?

How do you suppose that Filomena would have left her DNA in the small bathroom, which she never used? Do you know what the police found from wiping swabs all over the sink or bidet in the large bathroom - the one which Filomena used?
 
How do you know what marks or scratches Filomena might or might not have had on her body, or how many earrings she might have lost? Do you have a report detailing Filomena's physical appearance from early November 2007?

How do you know what Filomena's social behaviour was in the days following the murder? Do you have a report about that too?

How do you suppose that Filomena would have left her DNA in the small bathroom, which she never used? Do you know what the police found from wiping swabs all over the sink or bidet in the large bathroom - the one which Filomena used?
Did the police even get a DNA sample for Filomena? No. So, actually any DNA found in the big bathroom that wasn't rudy's was basically from person's unknown?
 
How do you know what marks or scratches Filomena might or might not have had on her body, or how many earrings she might have lost? Do you have a report detailing Filomena's physical appearance from early November 2007?

How do you know what Filomena's social behaviour was in the days following the murder? Do you have a report about that too?

How do you suppose that Filomena would have left her DNA in the small bathroom, which she never used? Do you know what the police found from wiping swabs all over the sink or bidet in the large bathroom - the one which Filomena used?

I don't know. Don't need to know.Those are things we do know about Amanda. I do know she didn't snog her boyfriend in the police station or put her feet in his lap, stick her tongue out and pull faces. She didn't declare that Meredith had bled to death in the crudest possible terms to Meredith's distraught friends.
 
My last four mobile handsets - dating back to around 2004 - have been a Samsung and three Nokias (all UK models), none of which were folding models, and they each turn on and off by pressing and holding the "end call" (red phone symbol) button on the front keypad.

I suspect that Guede might have developed a small pre-occupation with turning off Meredith's phones either because she tried to call the police before he attacked her, or because he interrupted her call to her mother. In such a circumstance, it's not unreasonable (in my opinion) that Guede might have decided that anyone calling Meredith would be less concerned by her phones being off than by them ringing and ringing without being answered. After all, there are probably more innocent reasons why a person's phone will be off (they want privacy/sleep, their battery has run flat, they are out of signal coverage) than for it to ring without being answered (they left their phone somewhere, they were too distracted by noise or other activity to notice an incoming call alert, they saw the incoming call but consciously decided not to answer). In addition, if Guede had decided to take the phones with him, he might be afraid that they had loud ring tones, and that if one of them went off while he was trying to make his way home discreetly, this might draw unwelcome attention towards him from anyone nearby.

I think that Guede managed to turn Meredith's Italian phone off fairly quickly, and messed around trying to turn off her UK for only a couple of minutes before giving up and deciding to leave it switched on and concentrate on getting out of the cottage.

Good answer!!

However, there are a couple of points. I agree that if it was the killer trying to turn the phones off something must have drawn his attention to them. We know that Meredith didn't attempt to call the police because it would be in the phone record, so if your theory is right then it must have been the call to her mother, but this leaves us back where we started because the activity is over an hour later and I think we're all agreed that he didn't wait around in the cottage for an hour.

I also considered that it might be because he thought the ringtones would draw attention to his bloody clothes, but if someone is close enough to hear a ringtone they're close enough to see the blood.

Also I think you said a few posts back that the Massei report stated that the Abbey call connected to the cell but couldn't be routed and there was no record of it in the phones memory. I think he's actually saying the opposite (but it's not that clear in the wording); that the call was in the memory but didn't connect.

The only reason I draw attention to this, is that the last three calls on that phone all ended the same way, being dialled but not connected. I think I'm right in saying that the cctv which (some think) captures Meredith just outside the cottage is timed at 20.41 which means that if the call to her mother is at 20.56 she is back in the cottage, this makes sense if you're calling England and plan to have a fairly lengthy chat, but it does tend to eliminate the possibility of high buildings on the walk home temporarily interrupting signal as some have suggested.

Could it be that there was a drop out in signal on the cottage that evening? Because if it could be proven that this is, or was, something that happened occasionally in that area (the area where I live in the UK is really bad for this), then it might also give us a reason why Meredith didn't try to call her mother back straight away as she might have been able to tell from the lack of bars on the phone that she wouldn't get through.
 
Here is some information on the operation of Meredith’s Sony Ericsson cell phone, model k700i. The phone is a candy bar style which means it does not flip open or have a slide mechanism. The on/off button is on the top of the phone. Below is a photo of the front face of the phone.

[qimg]http://z.about.com/d/cellphones/1/0/X/Z/sony-ericsson-k700i-g.jpg[/qimg]

According to the Massei report, after 21:00 on the night of the murder there were four interactions with the phone. (Page 328, English translation) the first three occurred in or around the cottage. The fourth occurred away from the cottage.

1. 21:58 - Attempt to call the phone’s voicemail. The procedure to access voicemail is to press and hold the #1 key. To disconnect from voicemail, press and hold the return key which will place you back to standby mode.
2. 22:00 – Outgoing call to Abbey Bank. There are three possible ways to make this call: (i) input the number using the numeric keypad. (ii) Select this contact from the list of contacts in the phonebook. This process is done in this manner: (a) Press the navigation key to go to the desktop; (b) Use navigation key to highlight the phonebook; (c) Press navigation key to select highlighted phonebook. (d) Use the navigation key to select contact (if Abbey Bank is first contact that entry will be already selected); (d) press selection key to initiate call. (iii) Use speed dial. If speed dial has been set up, each contact in the phonebook that has been designated for speed dial is assigned a number. If Abbey Bank was designated for speed dial, it would be given #1 (being first on the list). The process for calling the number using speed dial would be to press #1, then press the selection key.
3. 22:13 – Incoming call from internet. The call is rejected. A call can be rejected either by pressing the volume button (on the side of the phone) twice or by using the navigation key to select “No” on the viewing screen and then pressing the selection key.
4. 00:12 – WIND network pings the cell phone which is no longer in the area of the cottage.

If the phone is not in use for a period of time it automatically goes to sleep mode (all lights turn off). To get the phone back to standby mode press the navigation key.

Several observations

The process for calling and then disconnecting from voice mail is to press and hold the #1 key then press the return key which is located right above the #1 key.

The process for calling the Abbey bank using speed dial (providing the bank was on the speed dial list) would be to press the #1 key then the selection key which is located above the return key.

The first two calls could have been attempted by pressing three different keys a total of four times, all located in the same proximity of the keypad.

Rejecting the internet call would require the use of the navigation key to select “No” (“Yes” is the default) and then pressing the Selection key. Alternatively, the person would have to know that pressing the volume key twice would reject the call.

Nice analysis. However, I think the 10.13 connection is simpler than you are suggesting. I think that this wasn't an incoming internet call. It was most likely an incoming MMS message. The user guide for this phone gives some very interesting information on receiving MMS messages using WAP - it says that the default setting is for the handset to automatically connect to the WAP service and start downloading the message, while sending an "incoming message" alert at the start of the process. I think, therefore, that the phone gave the "incoming message" alert, and then automatically connected to WAP and started downloading the message. Downloading of the message can be halted simply by pressing the "return" key - which is exactly what I think Guede did some 9 seconds after the start of the alert.

This explanation would account very reasonably for the limited amount of data transfer which took place - in other words, the download of the message started automatically, but Guede stopped it by pressing the "return" key (he may have pressed a few other keys first in his attempt to stop the incoming message).
 
It may be that the judge feels it is enough that the prosecution has not been able to disprove the alibi as they have asserted they have done with Curatolo's testimony. I guess we will probably get to that before the results of the DNA review are in.
What alibi is there currently to disprove? Perhaps at some point the computer logs will provide one, but surely for much of the night they only have their own assertion as to where they were.
 
Good answer!!

However, there are a couple of points. I agree that if it was the killer trying to turn the phones off something must have drawn his attention to them. We know that Meredith didn't attempt to call the police because it would be in the phone record, so if your theory is right then it must have been the call to her mother, but this leaves us back where we started because the activity is over an hour later and I think we're all agreed that he didn't wait around in the cottage for an hour.

I also considered that it might be because he thought the ringtones would draw attention to his bloody clothes, but if someone is close enough to hear a ringtone they're close enough to see the blood.

Also I think you said a few posts back that the Massei report stated that the Abbey call connected to the cell but couldn't be routed and there was no record of it in the phones memory. I think he's actually saying the opposite (but it's not that clear in the wording); that the call was in the memory but didn't connect.

The only reason I draw attention to this, is that the last three calls on that phone all ended the same way, being dialled but not connected. I think I'm right in saying that the cctv which (some think) captures Meredith just outside the cottage is timed at 20.41 which means that if the call to her mother is at 20.56 she is back in the cottage, this makes sense if you're calling England and plan to have a fairly lengthy chat, but it does tend to eliminate the possibility of high buildings on the walk home temporarily interrupting signal as some have suggested.

Could it be that there was a drop out in signal on the cottage that evening? Because if it could be proven that this is, or was, something that happened occasionally in that area (the area where I live in the UK is really bad for this), then it might also give us a reason why Meredith didn't try to call her mother back straight away as she might have been able to tell from the lack of bars on the phone that she wouldn't get through.

I don't recall lack of signal ever having been mentioned as an issue at the girls' cottage before. In addition, Meredith's room does not appear to have been obscured from base stations by high buildings density: it's unlikely that the signal - given that the house was within a coverage area - would have dropped in and out. Another reason might be congestion on the particular base station, but this would almost certainly be a very temporary occurrence.

Regarding the earlier calls, this is what Massei says:

The memory of the Sony Ericsson mobile phone showed
1. at 20.56 hours on 1.11.07, an attempted call was made towards the family number (‚home‛) at 441737xxxxxx* referable to Meredith Kercher’s mother

2. at 21.58 hours there was an attempted call to the mobile phone’s answering service ‚voicemail 901‛

3. at 22.00 hours the number ‚08459724724‛ which, according to the phonebook of both mobile phones, corresponds to the user ‚ABBEY‛ is dialled.

The Wind [phone record] printouts register that (but the data is absent in the mobile phone’s memory)

* I've redacted Meredith's mother's full mobile number - I can't believe that Massei didn't do so.

This indicates that the call to the Abbey Bank number was registered by the network but not by the handset - which lends weight to it having been speed-dialled.

Regarding the call to the police, it's not necessary in this scenario that Meredith ever got as far as even punching in the emergency number (112 or 118). She might merely have announced that she was going to do so, and might have gone back into her room to pick her phone up off her bed or table. Guede might then have intercepted her and ripped her phone away before she had a chance to even dial the number.

And lastly, regarding the possible explanation that Guede didn't want an incoming call alert to draw attention to him on his journey home: I don't believe he have visible blood on him. He himself claims to have had "wet trousers", which I think is probably a true reference to the fact that he's washed the blood off his trousers in the small bathroom after the murder. But I think it's reasonable to suggest that he still didn't look entirely "normal", and this (together with a general desire not to be seen at all) might have made him anxious to be as inconspicuous as possible. A loudly ringing phone could only potentially serve to draw attention to him, at which point people might have noticed his wet trousers and/or general demeanour.

Sorry about the jumbled-up reply to your post!
 
If Amanda and Raffaele had obtained lawyers when Filomena and Laura had, their alibis might have been considered "proven."
Are you suggesting that Filomina and Laura had alibis because they had lawyers? Or that they were only stronger alibis than Raffaele and Amanda claiming to have been at home because of the lawyers? Or do you mean that with lawyers the police wouldn't have cared that Raffaele and Amanda didn't have an alibi?
 
stardust

And if they had been able to prove that this was where they were, as Filomina was, none of this would have happened. Amanda and Raffaele asserting that they were at home isn't much of an alibi. Perhaps the computer records will help.

shuttlt,

Perhaps if the police had not messed up the date the Stardust file was accessed, we would not be talking about this now.
 
what is an alibi

What alibi is there currently to disprove? Perhaps at some point the computer logs will provide one, but surely for much of the night they only have their own assertion as to where they were.

shuttlt,

I was told that an alibi is simply a statement of where you were. Therefore, their alibis are that they were together. Perhaps you mean a corroborated or substantiated alibi.
 
Stilicho wrote at PMF:



All the internet polls I've seen the results have been significantly been for the innocence of Knox and Sollecito.

This shows what the environment of PMF does to people's perceptions.
The poll on this site went with guilty. In any case, internet polls tell you at least as much about the people who happen to be interested in the issue the poll is about rather than the topic itself. Perhaps most of the people on the internet do believe she's innocent. What does it matter?
 
quick thoughts on contamination

To all,

The bra clasp should not have been handled with gloves, but rather with disposable instruments. One serious potential source of contamination that does not get mentioned frequently is the post-PCR DNA, which is in very high concentration. Judging by Charlie's DNA results table, there would be a great deal of Meredith's DNA in the lab, both pre- and post-PCR.
 
Ah, actually this was from his diary, not a police report and what he said is "what the hell", to be clear. Do find it odd though that when Raf questions what Amanda told him this is still used as evidence of guilt against the two. Why would he point out inconsistencies if he's guilty?
Can you really not think of any possibilities?
 
Great poll! Apart from improper categories, a seriously biased introductory post, and a non-randomised self-selecting sample of just 121 respondents, it's brilliantly conceived and executed! Gallup and Mori should be quaking in their boots.
Depends what question you think it's addressing. Knox and the case had been discussed at length on the forum. The poll tells you what members of the JREF with an interest in the original thread thought of Knox and her innocence or guilt, and to an extent how they were feeling about the thread as well. Answering that kind of question I don't see that the poll is particularly improper or biased. As for non-randomised self-selected, sure that's the kind of survey it is. What are the randomised non-self selected polls that you guys are referring to? Most people don't know enough to comment one way or the other on the case. Those that do are already a self-selected group.
 
The poll on this site went with guilty. In any case, internet polls tell you at least as much about the people who happen to be interested in the issue the poll is about rather than the topic itself. Perhaps most of the people on the internet do believe she's innocent. What does it matter?

That's exactly true. I've always been amazed at how many people think that some sort of "battle for hearts and minds" is so crucially important and relevant in this case - particularly anywhere outside Italy, but frankly even within Italy.

Politicians and corporations know how vitally important it is to influence public opinion. For politicians the reason is stunningly clear - you need people to like you and/or your politics if they're going to turn out and vote for you or your party. Simple - and worth millions of dollars/pounds/euros in PR and media management fees. For corporations, the relationship is more subtle - but it's easy to see how a company such as BP might be willing to spend millions of dollars in the US trying to persuade politicians, regulators and the general public that it's actually a safe, caring, conscientious operator of oil drilling platforms, and that we the public might want to have nice warm feelings about BP when we next need to fill our car up with petrol (gas).

In contrast, what possible benefit would the Knox/Mellas families gain from spending these alleged (and dreadfully-incorrect) millions of dollars on PR and media management?

Let's look at the desired outcome:

1) Knox (and Sollecito) gets acquitted on appeal, and returns back a free woman to the US

2) Knox's reputation is restored, and she is no longer regarded as a murderer

3) (probably) Knox's family can make enough money from film, TV and book rights to recoup the money they have spent on legal fees and expenses.


Now, no PR campaign is going to influence point (1) - and both the Knox family and their advisers must be very well aware of that.

One might argue that a PR effort could assist with point (2), but there are two points to note in that respect: a) achieving point (2) is to all intents impossible without achieving point (1); b) if point (1) is achieved, then point (2) will be relatively easy to achieve without the need for expensive PR anyhow. So no need to spend money at all.

And for point (3), spending large sums of money on a widescale PR campaign right now would only serve to further swell the Knox/Mellas families' already enormous bills. It makes no sense. Lawyers clearly need to be retained, and good lawyers cost money but can deliver results where it matters - the courts.

I think that the whole thing about huge PR campaigns is no more that a massive smokescreen. The one thing that might make sense is that the US TV networks might be giving Knox favourable coverage in the hope of securing a lucrative exclusive interview with her if she's acquitted. That makes sense. But in this instance it would be the media who are falling over themselves to get good Knox coverage on their channels - clearly no PR effort would be necessary from the Knox/Mellas side to "persuade" the networks to run pro-Knox stories.

But if it suits some people to think that there's some huge, well-oiled and expensively-funded PR effort constantly badgering media organisations (and even using paid bloggers!) to paint Knox in a positive light, then let them carry on thinking that I suppose. I hope I've just shown how deeply illogical it would be for the Knox/Mellas families to be shelling out these alleged huge sums - it simply won't serve to achieve their goals, whilst racking up yet further expenses at the same time.
 
I'm sorry, you must be sleepy. All means to manipulate sample material is done using disposable components. The forceps used at the crime scene wil not have been reused. It's really pretty clear what I've said.

SO, when all this is so, where do you say the contamination was introduced?

Actually I'm not the one that is sleepy. You made a point to correct someone. You corrected someone by explaining tweezers are called forceps in a lab. So i corrected you by mentioning that Knox/Kerchers apartment wasn't a lab. I never mentioned they took the tweezers back to the lab.
 
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