Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Antony]

And right now I am specifically wondering if there is any possible way that it was Meredith Kercher herself who could have possibly dialed out, for help, by randomly pressing buttons on her own cell phone as she lay dying in a pool of her own blood?

This still means that the murder took place at a time incompatible with the prosecution narrative involving AK and RS.

It also implies that Meredith was left alone, with her phones, after being fatally wounded. This means that someone would have had to return to her body later - because the phones were then transported to the garden where they were found the next day.

Neither does it account for the curious neglect of Meredith to call her mother - unless we assume that the attack on her took up the whole time from her arriving home until the mysterious calls were made.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Nonsensical statement about contamination

From the True Justice for Meredith DNA article just cited.

"The defence teams are notified of the date and time of all non-repetitive tests to make sure that they can be present to observe that correct procedures are adhered to. If they miss the tests or don’t stay for the full (often long) duration they have not carried out their full mandate to their client (they might even be liable for malpractice) and the defense has no right to claim wrong procedures or lab contamination."

The last statement is probably false, but it would be terribly damning of the Italian justice system if it were true. Contamination can happen even when people adhere to proper guidelines of handling evidence. In addition, there is no way to see the exact moment when something does become contaminated. The presence or absence of a someone from the defense cannot prevent contamination from happening. Finally, what about the experts hired after the testing took place. Are they supposed to go back in time?

The statement implying Knox's DNA being present on the clasp is rubbish.

 

[bobc]

I appreciate I am late to this particular discussion, but the ToD is of particular interest. I have followed the case on and off since the main trial started, but have not been immersed in all the details.

I had not heard about the digestive evidence before, and I missed the nuance about lag time versus emptying time. If the autopsy is correct, the probability of an earlier ToD is much higher than that suggested by the prosecution timeline. I would say the prosecution timeline is not credible.

Given the prolonged nature of the attack, it was not simply a spur of the moment thing. It seems unlikely that Knox and Sollecito left Sollecito's apartment at 21:10, and between say 21:15 to 21:45 became involved in struggle which led to Meredith's death. It never seemed very plausible to me that Knox receives a phone call telling her not to go to work, which turns into rage against Meredith and a violent outcome, or a sudden decision to play a prank on Meredith which went tragically wrong. It seems more likely she would return to Sollecito's and get high, which may also account for their odd behaviour and poor recall.

I had wondered if Knox and Sollecito were reluctant to be more specific in their accounts in order to conceal other illegal activity, such as meeting up with a dealer or doing harder drugs. It could also be that they were somehow complicit in the murder, perhaps by assisting Rudy or a third party.

The only evidence that actually ties Knox and Sollecito to the murder is the DNA evidence, which tbh is not that convincing. Without that evidence, the prosecution case as a whole is a lot less convincing.

Knox and Sollecito's actions and statements would appear to be incriminating, based on a general view of what "normal" people would do, but they are also consistent with a pair of naive dopeheads getting wrapped in something way over their heads.

 

[RWVBWL]

Yes, this is obvious. I don't see the same characteristics of a cleanup in the Luminol prints found at Kercher's flat.

I agree RoseMontague,
Especially #4!

http://www.bluestar-forensic.com/gb/gallery/2005_02/09.html

Thanks LondonJohn, this only helps confirm my belief that Amanda Knox was hangin' out at her boyfriend Rafaele's pad all night, not doing some magical cleanup!

CapeAladadin,
have you seen any photographs elsewhere that show a cleanup like this photo?
RWVBWL

 

[LondonJohn]

Rudy wrote of events in his diary before he was extradited to Italy on December 6, 2007?

Yes. Interestingly, while he explicitly refers to Knox in terms of finding it hard to understand how she could have slept and showered in a house with so much blood, he at no point makes any reference to her having been involved in the crime itself. He mentions only one man as the sole assailant at this point - a man unknown to Guede who spoke Italian with no accent. The identification of this mystery man as Sollecito, and the insertion of the accompanying female Knox came later. Much later. And I wonder why.....

 

[capealadin]

I disagree. When you throw away Curatolo, her story fits the evidence quite well.

It's not about Curatolo. It's about her gift, ( I won't go into the interrogation ) given later, where Amanda admits, basically, to confusing everyone. And later, when she can't give times, can't remembers, etc. To me, if Rudy gives the same knid of testimony, as per Amanda's, it will not be cohesive, by any stretch of the imagination. He might be giving a lot of * The best truths that I can think of*.

 

[capealadin]

Yes. Interestingly, while he explicitly refers to Knox in terms of finding it hard to understand how she could have slept and showered in a house with so much blood, he at no point makes any reference to her having been involved in the crime itself. He mentions only one man as the sole assailant at this point - a man unknown to Guede who spoke Italian with no accent. The identification of this mystery man as Sollecito, and the insertion of the accompanying female Knox came later. Much later. And I wonder why.....

And yet, like Amanda and Raffaele, he changes his story, calling them assasins, at his appeal trial.

 

[RWVBWL]

Thanks for the input LondonJohn and Antony!
Were both still turned on when found?
At least 1 of the cell phones was on when it was found on the next morning, for it was found heard ringing. I wonder if that was the 1 that had been used to dial out?
If that 1 was the only one still on, I can then believe that the person with the cell phones didn't know how to turn it off...
I'll have to do some digging, unless someone else can chime in...

Happy Holidays,
RWVBWL

 

[LondonJohn]

From the True Justice for Meredith DNA article just cited.

"The defence teams are notified of the date and time of all non-repetitive tests to make sure that they can be present to observe that correct procedures are adhered to. If they miss the tests or don’t stay for the full (often long) duration they have not carried out their full mandate to their client (they might even be liable for malpractice) and the defense has no right to claim wrong procedures or lab contamination."

The last statement is probably false, but it would be terribly damning of the Italian justice system if it were true. Contamination can happen even when people adhere to proper guidelines of handling evidence. In addition, there is no way to see the exact moment when something does become contaminated. The presence or absence of a someone from the defense cannot prevent contamination from happening. Finally, what about the experts hired after the testing took place. Are they supposed to go back in time?

The statement implying Knox's DNA being present on the clasp is rubbish.

I'm personally very impressed by the creative reasoning behind the declaration that Stefanoni was an "independent" DNA tester. And I'm speechless with admiration for the even gutsier assertion that Biondo (Stefanoni's boss!!) was in a position to present an impartial, disinterested, independent review of Stefanoni's work.

 

[capealadin]

I agree RoseMontague,
Especially #4!

http://www.bluestar-forensic.com/gb/gallery/2005_02/09.html

Thanks LondonJohn, this only helps confirm my belief that Amanda Knox was hangin' out at her boyfriend Rafaele's pad all night, not doing some magical cleanup!

CapeAladadin,
have you seen any photographs elsewhere that show a cleanup like this photo?
RWVBWL

I'm not referring to photos. I am referring to Rudy saying there was so much blood in the bathroom and corridor. He had also mentioned all the blood in the bedroom. I see no reason for him to lie about that, as he was obviously there, and would not exonerate him.

 

[LondonJohn]

Thanks for the input LondonJohn and Antony!
Were both still turned on when found?
At least 1 of the cell phones was on when it was found on the next morning, for it was found heard ringing. I wonder if that was the 1 that had been used to dial out?
If that 1 was the only one still on, I can then believe that the person with the cell phones didn't know how to turn it off...
I'll have to do some digging, unless someone else can chime in...

Happy Holidays,
RWVBWL

I might be wrong, but I think that the Italian phone had been turned off. This was the first phone to be found in Elisabetta Lana's garden, and I think it was found lying in plain view. Meredith's UK phone was found later, after it was heard ringing in the garden (it was more hidden than the Italian phone, which is why it hadn't been found by sight alone). And it was Meredith's UK phone which had dialled out the aborted calls at 10pm on the night of the murder.

So yes, this would lend weight to the suggestion that the assailant tried to turn both handsets off, and had success turning off the Italian handset but no success with the UK handset (with whose operation and on-screen menu he'd have been unfamiliar).

 

[bobc]

There's a really good new piece up on TJMK - it's balanced and completely free of any form of confirmation bias, and well worth a read.

What's its title?

"The Limited DNA Reviews - Why They Probably Won’t Help Defense And May At A Stroke Be Game Over"

Enjoy!

The DNA matches appear fairly convincing, the way they write it. I would not exclude the possibility of contamination though.

 

[RoseMontague]

From the True Justice for Meredith DNA article just cited.

"The defence teams are notified of the date and time of all non-repetitive tests to make sure that they can be present to observe that correct procedures are adhered to. If they miss the tests or don’t stay for the full (often long) duration they have not carried out their full mandate to their client (they might even be liable for malpractice) and the defense has no right to claim wrong procedures or lab contamination."

The last statement is probably false, but it would be terribly damning of the Italian justice system if it were true. Contamination can happen even when people adhere to proper guidelines of handling evidence. In addition, there is no way to see the exact moment when something does become contaminated. The presence or absence of a someone from the defense cannot prevent contamination from happening. Finally, what about the experts hired after the testing took place. Are they supposed to go back in time?

The statement implying Knox's DNA being present on the clasp is rubbish.

The Machine says:

Dr. Stefanoni found seven traces of human flesh (human tissue cells) on the large kitchen knife sequestered from Sollecito’s kitchen. There was only enough DNA for one test. However, the results of non-repetitive tests are allowed to be entered as evidence in Italy.

Any idea of where this is coming from? It was my understanding she denied even examining this sample under a microscope. Must have some really good eyes.

 

[LondonJohn]

The DNA matches appear fairly convincing, the way they write it. I would not exclude the possibility of contamination though.

With the knife, I think it's fairly well-agreed that somehow a tiny piece of Meredith's DNA was recovered from the blade. I don't think that this is being contested, so a match is not surprising in the least. What is being contested is how that tiny piece of DNA came to be on the blade of the knife. The defence argues contamination, since the sensitivity of the measuring equipment was turned up way beyond normal PCR protocols, and well into the LCN-area range - an area where extra special anti-contamination measures such as positive pressure ventilation and rigorous air- and equipment-handling measures are essential to minimise (note: not eliminate) the chance of contamination. None of these special measures were in operation in Stefanoni's lab.

In addition, it's hard to understand how a tiny piece of Meredith's DNA could have become present on a knife which did not test positive on a presumptive test for Meredith's blood. The prosecution claim that this is because it's from a dermal (skin) cell, but the likelihood of all the blood (which must necessarily have covered the blade if it had been involved in the attack) being removed, yet a tiny particle of skin remaining "lodged" in this alleged tiny groove in the blade is very low.

Lastly, on a slightly more technical level, the protocol for handling LCN-range DNA results is that one can only show a match if the test is repeated with the same results. This is a vital protocol because the extreme sensitivities involved in dealing with the original LCN-level sample (i.e. before the copying process amplifies it) can produce false results. Unfortunately for Stefanoni, she either didn't know about this protocol or she chose not to follow it - for the test was not repeated, and is now unrepeatable.

 

[shuttlt]

Any idea of where this is coming from? It was my understanding she denied even examining this sample under a microscope. Must have some really good eyes.

I think there is a quote from PrugiaShock about her describing having seen some material in the crack. The only other information in the quote is that it was under bright illumination and it had to be held at the correct angle. My recollection was that it was naked eye stuff.

 

[RoseMontague]

And

seven traces

? I would like to know where this is coming from as well. Where on the knife blade were the other six traces found? I think the Machine is presenting as fact some very dubious information.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

superimposition

The DNA matches appear fairly convincing, the way they write it. I would not exclude the possibility of contamination though.

bobc,

I am pressed for time today. Have you read the open letter by Dr. Hampikian and Dr. Johnson? There is a pdf available at Charlie's site. Superimposing a reference sample on top of a evidence sample is not the right way to analyze DNA electropherograms, especially with mixtures, such as the bra clasp. It is also important to read an e-gram vertically, as well as horizontally. The lack of blood and the fact that the sample was low template both raise the odds that contamination is involved, and the lab had a great deal of Meredith's DNA.

 

[Onofarar]

Guede won't say a thing. His lawyers announced that they're going to Strasburg with his case, so he still got plenty to lose.

Who the heck is paying Rudy's lawyers? Are they working pro bono? Does Italy have the equivalent of Legsal Aid / Publlic Defenders paid by the government? Maybe the lawyers have a book deal advance based on a proposal to write about the trials of Rudy from Perugia to Strasburg?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

speculation on the mysterious seven

And ? I would like to know where this is coming from as well. Where on the knife blade were the other six traces found? I think the Machine is presenting as fact some very dubious information.

Speculation alert:

Perhaps Dr. Stefanoni found a few alleles when she sampled from other parts of the blade. Either the peaks were too small or were incomplete. If there is DNA, one might say that there is flesh, but that is misleading, since one is not testing for skin, muscle, blood, etc. If so, this raises other questions.

 

[RoseMontague]

I think there is a quote from PrugiaShock about her describing having seen some material in the crack. The only other information in the quote is that it was under bright illumination and it had to be held at the correct angle. My recollection was that it was naked eye stuff.

She could tell it was human flesh by the naked eye? Do you consider this credible? Could she tell the difference between a miniscule piece of human flesh from that of chicken, fish, or pork by eyeballing it? I don't see how she could tell it was even flesh at all.