Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Justinian2]

You're wrong. For two reasons.

1) The appeal court ruling of December 18th has reserved the right to agree to additional defence witnesses after the DNA re-evaluation has taken place.

2) Even if no new expert witnesses are admitted to testify about ToD, this categorically does not mean that the appeal court will not be reconsidering ToD. In fact, the un-appended witness testimony from the first trial can, on its own, show that Meredith died before 10.30pm. However, I think that new expert witnesses could convincingly bring this time down to 9.30pm, and 10pm at the latest (in line, incidentally, with the police's own pathologist, who performed the autopsy).

Why don't many people understand that the ruling last Saturday was only concerned with whether new tests or witnesses were going to be allowed? It didn't concern itself with what parts of the case the appeal court was going to reconsider. In fact, the appeal court will be reconsidering the entire case. Last Saturday was only concerned with decisions on whether the court required additional testing or expert testimony to assist it in its reconsideration.

If they disprove the knife DNA they should let Amanda go. Actually, at that point they should let Raffaele go too as the case really becomes too thin to support any verdict. Same for the bra clasp. Even the The 'Flying Wallendas' couldn't do a high wire act on a thread.

 

[capealadin]

Rudy's own words:

Then I headed for Meredith’s house. With all the running around I did, I think it would have been around 8:30, approximately. Because we were supposed to see each other at that time, even though I didn’t have a watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this, and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered. I went downstairs to the guys’ place, but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the yard.

/skip on down

I am asking myself how is it possible that Amanda could have slept in all that mess, and took a shower with all that blood in the bathroom and corridor? Why Patrick? Who was that person, Raffaele? And then "AF, AF." It could be his name. And then if thieves had been there, why isn't Amanda saying a word about the missing money? And who was in the house below when I left? What has ever happened between Amanda and Meredith?


Is it me or is Rudy stating that someone was in the house below when he left. They never found Meredith's keys. Did Meredith's keys have the key to the downstairs apartment with them? If the guys that lived downstairs where out of town. Then Rudy is claiming that someone broke in downstairs also. Was the murder of Meredith to get the keys to the downstairs apartment? Also Knox claims to have arrived home and the door was open. Since you had to lock the door with the keys, then if someone took the keys downstairs to get in the apartment then Rudy couldn't have locked the door when he left. I'm not saying Rudy's innocent. I just found the statement about someone in the house below interesting, because they never found Meredith's keys. Then to top it off there is also a car in the driveway.

What I'm taking note of, Chris is this. * How could Amanda have taken a shower, when THE BATHROOM and corridor..WITH ALL THAT BLOOD ?

It seems Rudy is describing a scene like that when he left, so , what happened to all the blood, he describes. Who cleaned up? Because in the pics, there is not much blood in the bathroom and corridor>

 

[Chris C]

What I'm taking note of, Chris is this. * How could Amanda have taken a shower, when THE BATHROOM and corridor..WITH ALL THAT BLOOD ?

It seems Rudy is describing a scene like that when he left, so , what happened to all the blood, he describes. Who cleaned up? Because in the pics, there is not much blood in the bathroom and corridor>

The scientifica team want you to believe that those footprints where made of blood in the hallway. Yet if there was blood all over the floor and bathroom they somehow managed to miss footprints and its outright obvious the bathroom wasn't cleaned up.

Rudy's description of the scene was a reference to Meredith's bedroom and the blood on him.
I find the highlighted portion odd for someone who claims to barely know the girls to be talking like he would be answering the door if he wasn't on the toilet. Using my do-it-yourself statement analysis degree, Rudy is making a alpha male statement. That kinda throws a wrench into the Knox was the leader behind it all theory.

"I tried to stop the blood. I took a towel from her bathroom,
but in less than a minute it was all soaked. I took another,
but it was no use."

"There was only red, nothing else. Damn, if I hadn’t gone to the bathroom, perhaps I would have opened the door,
and maybe nothing would have happened. Oh my God,
why all this, what had that person tried to tell me with
“black man found, guilty man found?” Did he know me? I
wasn’t able to see him well because the house was not
well lit. Only Meredith’s room had light. I remember
because the abat-jour was switched on. Maybe that’s
why they accused Patrick, the first black man close to
Meredith?"

/skip

"I left the house in shock. I was outside, but didn’t know
where to go, seeing still all that blood. It was all so red. I
thought of going home. I had wet trousers and tried to
cover it with the sweatshirt. There were a lot of people in
the street, in Piazza Grimana. There were some guys still
playing basketball even though it was dark."

 

[Dan O.]

Rudy's own words:

/skip on down

I am asking myself how is it possible that Amanda could have slept in all that mess, and took a shower with all that blood in the bathroom and corridor? Why Patrick? Who was that person, Raffaele? And then "AF, AF." It could be his name. And then if thieves had been there, why isn't Amanda saying a word about the missing money? And who was in the house below when I left? What has ever happened between Amanda and Meredith?
​

Has anyone else noticed that Rudy knows exactly where both Amanda and Meredith kept their rent money stashed? Rudy says Meredith showed him where the monies were kept. Do you think Rudy could be telling the truth: that Meredith invited him in, that he was sitting on the toilet when it "all went down", that he heard the doorbell while sitting on the toilet which implies that Meredith had also locked the gate on the front door while Rudy was in the cottage alone with her. I find it hard to believe that this is who Meredith was.

The alternative explanation is that Rudy knew where Amanda and Meredith stashed their rent monies because he is the one that took it. I don't think that anyone will argue that Rudy hung around after Meredith died to search the rooms. I believe this leaves only the lone wolf scenario of Rudy breaking in and stealing the monies before Meredith comes home.

 

[Justinian2]

"Maybe that’s why they accused Patrick, the first black man close to Meredith?"

Right in the middle of Guede's recollection of the murder scene, he inserts something that hadn't yet happened.

This 'confession' has to be taken in context. What were the details - like time and place?

 

[Justinian2]

[...]
The alternative explanation is that Rudy knew where Amanda and Meredith stashed their rent monies because he is the one that took it. I don't think that anyone will argue that Rudy hung around after Meredith died to search the rooms. I believe this leaves only the lone wolf scenario of Rudy breaking in and stealing the monies before Meredith comes home.

Good! That makes sense.

 

[LondonJohn]

Rudy's own words:

Then I headed for Meredith’s house. With all the running around I did, I think it would have been around 8:30, approximately. Because we were supposed to see each other at that time, even though I didn’t have a watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this, and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered. I went downstairs to the guys’ place, but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the yard.

/skip on down

I am asking myself how is it possible that Amanda could have slept in all that mess, and took a shower with all that blood in the bathroom and corridor? Why Patrick? Who was that person, Raffaele? And then "AF, AF." It could be his name. And then if thieves had been there, why isn't Amanda saying a word about the missing money? And who was in the house below when I left? What has ever happened between Amanda and Meredith?


Is it me or is Rudy stating that someone was in the house below when he left. They never found Meredith's keys. Did Meredith's keys have the key to the downstairs apartment with them? If the guys that lived downstairs where out of town. Then Rudy is claiming that someone broke in downstairs also. Was the murder of Meredith to get the keys to the downstairs apartment? Also Knox claims to have arrived home and the door was open. Since you had to lock the door with the keys, then if someone took the keys downstairs to get in the apartment then Rudy couldn't have locked the door when he left. I'm not saying Rudy's innocent. I just found the statement about someone in the house below interesting, because they never found Meredith's keys. Then to top it off there is also a car in the driveway.

I'm in an amusing mood this morning so lets use some of that Guilter statement analysis. When I read that statement, "who was in the house below when I left". To me its implied that who is in the singular form. So with my expert do-it-yourself statement analysis degree. Rudy is telling me that 1 person broke into the downstairs apartment. Couldn't have been Knox/Sollecito.

This links to something that's puzzled me for a while. The photos from 2nd November (once the police had arrived) seem to show the police breaking the glass in the door of the lower apartment, and they show that the metal grill over the door is not in place. I have wondered therefore whether the police cut the lock on the grill, or whether the grill was not in place in front of the door when the police arrived. If it's the latter, then I find it extremely strange that the four boys would have gone away for the long weekend and not locked the grill in front of the door. Similarly, if Meredith were charged with watering the marijuana plants and feeding the cat, it's hard to believe that she wouldn't have replaced the grill every time she left the apartment.

So did someone enter the boys' apartment on the night of the murder? Was that someone Guede? Could he have stolen stuff (drugs?) from the boys' apartment that the boys were reluctant to inform the police about? Could Guede have known that Meredith had the keys to the boys' apartment? If so, could he have known which keys were which, or were they on a separate keyring? Could this be why Guede is making reference to a person in the boys' apartment (in case anyone had seen a figure insude or going in or out)?

Or is this all just a red herring?

 

[LondonJohn]

What I'm taking note of, Chris is this. * How could Amanda have taken a shower, when THE BATHROOM and corridor..WITH ALL THAT BLOOD ?

It seems Rudy is describing a scene like that when he left, so , what happened to all the blood, he describes. Who cleaned up? Because in the pics, there is not much blood in the bathroom and corridor>

So someone (or "sometwo") cleaned up the bathroom and hallway, yet stupidly left visible drops of blood on the sink tap and in the bidet, a partial blood/water footprint on the bathmat, and (miraculously) Guede's own barely-visible* shoeprints in the hallway leading towards the front door? I don't think so, somehow.

* so barely visible, in fact, that the "crack" forensics police trampled all over them for an hour or two until someone finally noticed them....

 

[LondonJohn]

Talking of the bathmat partial print, one would hope that the appeal court judges will apply better reasoning that Massei's team. Massei, after all, concluded that the print must be one in a series of prints leading from Meredith's room to the bathroom, and therefore further concluded that someone had cleaned up all the other prints between Meredith's room and the bathmat. But he didn't apply sufficient logic to figure out that it would be impossible for the sole of a foot to still be saturated with blood/water to the extent that it made a saturated block print on the bathmat, if that same foot had already made two or three previous footfalls since stepping in Meredith's blood in her room. If the blood had been picked up on the sole of the foot in Meredith's room, then most of it would have been deposited onto the floor of the hallway and the door area of the bathroom, and the print on the bathmat would have been a faint, blotchy, incomplete print.

Therefore, either the person in question moved the bathmat to Meredith's room at some point (unlikely), or he managed to hop around Meredith's body, round the corner of her bedroom door and into the bathroom, before planting his right foot for the first time onto the bathmat (unlikely), or the blood was picked up by the sole of the foot within the bathroom itself while (for example) the person was washing their leg.

And of course the other point to note is that the bathmat print, while made from a sole saturated in liquid, is visibly not made in neat blood, but instead a dilute blood/water mix. How is that blood/water mix supposed to have been present in Meredith's room? The only reasonable conclusion is that the blood became diluted with water in a place where there was a source of water: the bathroom.

 

[LondonJohn]

And that made me remember the term "millimetre precision" as applied to the measurement of the bathmat print, and it made me smile at the absurdity of anyone trying to apply that phrase to that print (and the absurdity of anyone trying to claim that the print is conclusively Sollecito's and definitely not Guede's).

 

[Chris_Halkides]

why did he oppose the reexamination

What was the question?

Fulcanelli,

My question was why would Mr. Maresca oppose reexamining the forensics.

 

[The Third Man]

This links to something that's puzzled me for a while. The photos from 2nd November (once the police had arrived) seem to show the police breaking the glass in the door of the lower apartment, and they show that the metal grill over the door is not in place. I have wondered therefore whether the police cut the lock on the grill, or whether the grill was not in place in front of the door when the police arrived. If it's the latter, then I find it extremely strange that the four boys would have gone away for the long weekend and not locked the grill in front of the door. Similarly, if Meredith were charged with watering the marijuana plants and feeding the cat, it's hard to believe that she wouldn't have replaced the grill every time she left the apartment.

So did someone enter the boys' apartment on the night of the murder? Was that someone Guede? Could he have stolen stuff (drugs?) from the boys' apartment that the boys were reluctant to inform the police about? Could Guede have known that Meredith had the keys to the boys' apartment? If so, could he have known which keys were which, or were they on a separate keyring? Could this be why Guede is making reference to a person in the boys' apartment (in case anyone had seen a figure insude or going in or out)?

Or is this all just a red herring?

Didn't Amanda say something about being taken to the downstairs apartment by the Police and questioned about a bloody duvet on one of the beds, does anyone know what the outcome of this was? I did wonder when I read about it, but I thought the Police must have ruled it out.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

three years and the defense is still waiting

The defence know all the dates, since they were invited to attend each of the tests. It's not the prosecution's fault if the defence don't check their invites.

Fulcanelli,

They may or may not know the dates, but not which items were tested on which dates. Again, you are ignoring the more important issue, which is that the electronic data files are much more important than observing the testing. The files still have not been released, three years into the case.

 

[capealadin]

Chris, Rudy specifically says: With all that blood in the bathroom and corridor. I'm not talking about what the Scientifica team WANT me to believe, but what the photos depict to the NAKED eye. Rudy is not referring to Meredith's bedroom, in this instance.As he says the bathroom was full of blood, where is that in the photos. And, surely Amanda would not have showered in the bathroom, if that was the case. She says she only noticed a bit of blood, after her shower. And, Raffaele mentions only *drops* of blood.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

closing arguments and TOD

What do you mean 'allowed' him? The prosecution can put forward any TOD they want.

Fulcanelli,

The judge allowed him to change the TOD in the closing remarks. I would not have an issue with this time, if the prosecution had done so as part of their main presentation. How was the defense supposed to counter this, since they had already presented their case?

 

[Justinian2]

Rudy's own words:

Then I headed for Meredith’s house. With all the running around I did, I think it would have been around 8:30, approximately. Because we were supposed to see each other at that time, even though I didn’t have a watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this, and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered. I went downstairs to the guys’ place, but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the yard.

/skip on down

I am asking myself how is it possible that Amanda could have slept in all that mess, and took a shower with all that blood in the bathroom and corridor? Why Patrick? Who was that person, Raffaele? And then "AF, AF." It could be his name. And then if thieves had been there, why isn't Amanda saying a word about the missing money? And who was in the house below when I left? What has ever happened between Amanda and Meredith?
Is it me or is Rudy stating that someone was in the house below when he left. They never found Meredith's keys. Did Meredith's keys have the key to the downstairs apartment with them? If the guys that lived downstairs where out of town. Then Rudy is claiming that someone broke in downstairs also. Was the murder of Meredith to get the keys to the downstairs apartment? Also Knox claims to have arrived home and the door was open. Since you had to lock the door with the keys, then if someone took the keys downstairs to get in the apartment then Rudy couldn't have locked the door when he left. I'm not saying Rudy's innocent. I just found the statement about someone in the house below interesting, because they never found Meredith's keys. Then to top it off there is also a car in the driveway.

I'm in an amusing mood this morning so lets use some of that Guilter statement analysis. When I read that statement, "who was in the house below when I left". To me its implied that who is in the singular form. So with my expert do-it-yourself statement analysis degree. Rudy is telling me that 1 person broke into the downstairs apartment. Couldn't have been Knox/Sollecito.

I am asking myself how is it possible that Amanda could have slept in all that mess, and took a shower with all that blood in the bathroom and corridor?​

Why would anyone wonder how Amanda took a shower with all that blood? Why would he wonder that at that point in time?

This is actually a confession in which Guede is combining his recollection of the scene with several things he learned afterward - like Amanda's shower the following morning.

The story could have been deliberately concocted in order to confuse people, or the police were confused when they took the confession.

 

[capealadin]

So someone (or "sometwo") cleaned up the bathroom and hallway, yet stupidly left visible drops of blood on the sink tap and in the bidet, a partial blood/water footprint on the bathmat, and (miraculously) Guede's own barely-visible* shoeprints in the hallway leading towards the front door? I don't think so, somehow.

* so barely visible, in fact, that the "crack" forensics police trampled all over them for an hour or two until someone finally noticed them....

Rudy talks about * ALL THAT BLOOD*, in the bathroom and corridor. That is not how the photos depict the scene. So, there had to have been a clean-up. Obviously we know, it wasn't a perfect job, because there was not All that blood in the bathroom and corridor.

 

[LondonJohn]

Didn't Amanda say something about being taken to the downstairs apartment by the Police and questioned about a bloody duvet on one of the beds, does anyone know what the outcome of this was? I did wonder when I read about it, but I thought the Police must have ruled it out.

Yes, I remember reading about that too. Unfortunately, it's quite hard to search for, since any reference to duvets or bedclothes usually brings up a flood of references to the duvet which covered Meredith's body, or the knife print on the bedsheet.

Does anyone have a decent link to any information about the bloody bedding in the boys' apartment (if it exists!)? Thanks.

 

[capealadin]

I am asking myself how is it possible that Amanda could have slept in all that mess, and took a shower with all that blood in the bathroom and corridor?​

Why would anyone wonder how Amanda took a shower with all that blood? Why would he wonder that at that point in time?

This is actually a confession in which Guede is combining his recollection of the scene with several things he learned afterward - like Amanda's shower the following morning.

The story could have been deliberately concocted in order to confuse people, or the police were confused when they took the confession.

Anyone would wonder how anyone could take a shower, with all that blood in a bathroom. Would YOU take a shower, in those conditions? And, as far as the Police being confused: Amanda apologizes to them, for confusing them.

 

[LondonJohn]

Rudy talks about * ALL THAT BLOOD*, in the bathroom and corridor. That is not how the photos depict the scene. So, there had to have been a clean-up. Obviously we know, it wasn't a perfect job, because there was not All that blood in the bathroom and corridor.

Rudy also talks about Amanda sleeping in the murder house overnight. Rudy claims to have helped Meredith, yet walked out of the house without contacting any friends or emergency services, and went out dancing within a couple of hours. Rudy tells lies or distortions. Rudy is an untrustworthy source of information. Rudy is wrong about the amount of blood in the hallway and bathroom.