Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Justinian2]

I personally wouldn't call midway in WWII a turning point. The turning point in the Pacific theatre was when they bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7 1941.

Things went poorly for the USA for the first year. Even that battle started out rather poorly; we could have lost but for some gallant pilots.

But, as a person that looks for patterns, I find turning points indicative of a future victory.

 

[JREF2010]

How long does Rudy sit on Meredith's bed going through her life in the contents of her purse and pounding the wall with his fist after realizing what he had done? How long does he sit there trying to decide what to do next?

What Rudy does next is take the cash, credit cards, cell phones and keys and heads home locking behind him the mess he has created in Meredith's room.

Rudy says he went home by going through town through the basketball court. But Rudy would know this path would have a high probability of encountering someone that would recognize him. I believe he is making this claim to distance himself from where the phones were found. Rudy would have taken a path outside the city walls and through the park.

How long does Rudy spend alone in the dark in the park outside the city wall contemplating his pathetic existence and reliving the nightmare of the last hour? Rudy comes to convince himself that Meredith was still alive when he left her. Is he also thinking that if he calls her friends and hangs up they will start to worry about her and might save her? That probably is a detail that only Rudy can fill in.


There are sufficient events, some with open time frames, to easily account for the time between Meredith arriving home at 21:05 and the phones being activated at 21:58/22:00.

22.13.29pm the cell aligned to the tower covering the garden/outside the cottage. I think Rudy had left by then. He told Matteini 10:30pm, but 10:13pm is close and he had no watch. Maybe he pressed a button to see the time? Thats what I do a lot. I have no watch and no pocket watch...its the cell phone these days.

>the traffic registered at 22.13.29 hours on 1 November 07, where the cell providing the coverage was 30064 on Strada Vicinale Ponte Rio Monte la Guardia, whose signal, as the on-the-spot measurements carried out by Chief Inspector Latella prove, can be received both at the level of Meredith’s bedroom window and in the courtyard of the cottage on Via della Pergola 7.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi RoseMontague!
I too had noticed this and almost re-posted thru my earlier Bud Light semen stain post, but didn't.
I figured someone would catch note of it, you are very perceptive RoseMontague, and I am glad that you brought it up for discussion!

Frank commented on the pillow stain:
"The judge reserved the right to decide --after the results of the DNA study-- about the stain on the pillow, the jail witnesses, the audiometric study and other requests. DNA comes first.
As Maori pointed out: Now the trial starts. A long trial, with the lovebirds still attending it from jail."

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2010/12/dna-study-admitted-for-knox-and.html

Contradicting, it appears, what The Daily Beast reporter Barbie Nadeau reported:
"Helmen denied a request to examine a pillowcase found under Kercher’s body that had the footprint in blood that the prosecution attributed to Knox. That pillowcase also had a spot of semen that had never been testedThe defense wants the spot tested to see whose it is, but the prosecution maintains that it likely belonged to Kercher’s boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi.
The judge decided that it was not relevant in this murder."
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...-evidence-will-be-retested/?cid=hp:mainpromo1

Once again it seems that we have conflicting information!
For some reason I'll go with Mr. Sfarzo's reporting on the matter over the author of "Angel Face".
If anyone else has further information please do chime in,
Thanks, RWVBWL

 

[Chris C]

Things went poorly for the USA for the first year. Even that battle started out rather poorly; we could have lost but for some gallant pilots.

But, as a person that looks for patterns, I find turning points indicative of a future victory.

Its called WWII for a reason. I'm sure the British would have a different view of the decisive turning point in the war. Though this discussion is way off topic. The Battle of Pearl Harbor was a failure for the Japanese, all they sank was some outdated ships and a couple hundred planes. They failed to knock the Pearl Harbor fleet out of the war. Most of the ship personel where on shore leave. They failed to sink the 3 carriers. 1 of those carriers the USS Enterprise would be at the battle of midway. The following result was to pull the US into WWII and not only doom themselves but also doom Germany whose Barbarosa campaign had just stalled in the Russian winter. The day Japan hit Pearl Harbor was the day they lost dominance in the Pacific. Germany didnt lose dominance in Europe until the Battle of Stalingrad. Until that battle, they still had a shot at beating Russia. Whereas, Japan never had a chance. Midway was just an exclamation point! If you would like to discuss this point further, we will have to do it in another thread.

 

[Magister]

More conflicting information

Latest from Andrea Vogt

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/432051_knox18.html?source=mypi

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Things went poorly for the USA for the first year. Even that battle started out rather poorly; we could have lost but for some gallant pilots.

But, as a person that looks for patterns, I find turning points indicative of a future victory.

Interesting digression... I might argue that we drew a rough stalemate, but we could replace our losses more easily than the enemy could, so we won. In fact, we were certain to win from the moment the first bomb was dropped on Pearl Harbor, but not quickly and not without an enormous cost. That is the situation we face with Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[billyryan]

The Knox and Sollocito family members in court burst into tears of joy once the judge announced that the dna evidence on the knife and the bra clip was to be independently tested. I have no doubt that they are well ahead of the game on this, they have sought and got the advice of the best experts in the world on these two items,they probally already know what the results of these tests will be.

Mignini and Camodi sure did stoop fair low when they decided to put Curatolo on the witness stand the first day

 

[Simmins]

Here is the evidence from a Wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Knox#Forensic_evidence

 

[billyryan]

Interesting digression... I might argue that we drew a rough stalemate, but we could replace our losses more easily than the enemy could, so we won. In fact, we were certain to win from the moment the first bomb was dropped on Pearl Harbor, but not quickly and not without an enormous cost. That is the situation we face with Amanda and Raffaele.

Interesting Charlie what you say ye were certain to win,my knowledge on the war in the pacific is probally a lot less than some here,but am I not right in saying that one Jap commander wanted one more wave of atacks to finish off the job but he was over ruled by the supreme commander who decided to withdraw,if the Jap commander who wanted one more wave of attacks had got his way they might just have sunk the three carriers and knocked the pearl habour fleet out of the war

 

[Chris C]

Interesting Charlie what you say ye were certain to win,my knowledge on the war in the pacific is probally a lot less than some here,but am I not right in saying that one Jap commander wanted one more wave of atacks to finish off the job but he was over ruled by the supreme commander who decided to withdraw,if the Jap commander who wanted one more wave of attacks had got his way they might just have sunk the three carriers and knocked the pearl habour fleet out of the war

Off Topic Response: I'm not forcing you to read it.

The carriers were not in port. The USS Saratoga, USS Enterprise and USS Lexington and their respective task forces where not there. The Japanese concentrated on the battleships, and then quickly withdrew. Though the aircraft carriers couldn't have counter-attacked, the Japanese didn't know this.

 

[Dan O.]

22.13.29pm the cell aligned to the tower covering the garden/outside the cottage. I think Rudy had left by then. He told Matteini 10:30pm, but 10:13pm is close and he had no watch. Maybe he pressed a button to see the time? Thats what I do a lot. I have no watch and no pocket watch...its the cell phone these days.

>the traffic registered at 22.13.29 hours on 1 November 07, where the cell providing the coverage was 30064 on Strada Vicinale Ponte Rio Monte la Guardia, whose signal, as the on-the-spot measurements carried out by Chief Inspector Latella prove, can be received both at the level of Meredith’s bedroom window and in the courtyard of the cottage on Via della Pergola 7.

ETA: The 22:13 call was an incoming MMS message. No buttons need be pressed at this time.

Has anyone produced a map for these cell towers? There is clearly a tower on which would fit the description "Guard Mount on Bridge River Road" (someone needs to check my translation too )

This view is looking over the peak of the roof that is directly over Meredith's window. This cell will have great coverage outside Meredith's window.

This cell could even have good coverage inside her room given that it is positioned to cover a larger area and not one of the micro cells that Perugia needs to cover the many canyons created by the narrow streets and thick walls.

The problem though is that this cell is half way between the cottage and the garden where the phones were found. These areas would be covered by different sectors of that cell. The sectors were listed for the other cell records, why do we not get the sector for this one?

This particular is only an example as I don't currently know if it is even part of Meredith's network. But other cell sites would have a similar problem with the sectors.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Andrea Vogt:
Citing the need to achieve justice by concluding "beyond a reasonable doubt," Presiding Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellman said he wanted the independent expert to retest the items, if possible. If not possible, he wants the expert to reanalyze the existing DNA results.

Frank Sfarzo:
The judge reserved the right to decide --after the results of the DNA study-- about the stain on the pillow, the jail witnesses, the audiometric study and other requests. DNA comes first.

Apparently there is already reasonable doubt about DNA and unless the review doesn't dispel this doubt there is no need to bother with the rest of the evidence.

 

[billyryan]

Andrea Vogt:
Citing the need to achieve justice by concluding "beyond a reasonable doubt," Presiding Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellman said he wanted the independent expert to retest the items, if possible. If not possible, he wants the expert to reanalyze the existing DNA results.

Frank Sfarzo:
The judge reserved the right to decide --after the results of the DNA study-- about the stain on the pillow, the jail witnesses, the audiometric study and other requests. DNA comes first.

Apparently there is already reasonable doubt about DNA and unless the review doesn't dispel this doubt there is no need to bother with the rest of the evidence.

What you are saying Katody is if it is not Raffaele dna on the bra clip and Meridiths dna ont the knife blade is is then acquittal without digging any deeper,it could be all over before the end of Janurary

 

[LondonJohn]

I've repeatedly responded to these points above. Anyone who has read the past few pages has seen the responses. Curatolo was found credible by the court of first instance. Cite you contrary claims please.

By all means dispute my photos from 1st of November if you like. It was extensively covered contemporaneously that I was there. Your arguments are false and malicious and you make yourself look pretty silly. At this point I retreat from this debate - there's literally nothing to be achieved here with you, Withnail and Mary H. I am content to continue to debate with the more credible proponents of Amanda's innocence such as Wilkes and Halides but this conversation has become pointless. I note none of you ever responded to the points of Steve Moore's hyperbole and exaggeration properly.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed discussion of other poster

There were disco buses in Piazza Grimana on the night of Sunday October 31st 2010 - a night when he was indeed in Perugia, and the night of the traditional Halloween parties of the out-of-town discos. However, as in 2007, there were no disco buses on the night of Monday November 1st 2010. SA might also want to check his return flight ticket, since if I'm not mistaken he flew home some time on the 1st November and would therefore have been in no position to see whether or not there were disco buses there that night (there were not).

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed discussion of other poster

 

[LondonJohn]

I think it's good from the point of view of justice that a thorough look at the evidence is made. I don't think it is necessarily that good for the innocence campaign, though. It could end up reaffirming the previous verdict, and it would be very hard then to argue about lack of due process.

Assuming that the items that are reviewed (DNA, witnesses) are found to be unreliable, would that result in a retrial?

There's been a classic "reverse ferret" from various members of the guilter (shorthand) community regarding the retesting of forensic evidence.

Here, for example, is occasional JREF poster Piktor speaking - in boxed-in emphasis, no less - yesterday morning before the ruling:

This is essentially the whole enchilada. If the Guede investigation is included, it is the same investigation that convicted Biff and Nita. The scientific investigation for Guede was not reviewed.

The DNA evidence will not be reviewed. Nothing will be reviewed.

And here is Piktor a few hours later, following the ruling that there will be a review of the DNA evidence:

It (the decision to review the DNA evidence etc) is a master stroke by judge Hellmann.

And this is just one amongst dozens of similar reverse ferrets on this issue - Kelvin Mackenzie would be so proud!

 

[snook1]

Can anyone make it clear how does Aviello and Alessi's statements help the case? What will they say? What about Rudy? Is he involved in their version of the events that took place on Nov 1st 2007?

 

[LondonJohn]

You're right it is quite common to activate a phone and make unintended calls, but I would argue that activating voicemail is not so random. Whether it's dialing a number or pressing on a key with force for a period in excess of 1second, it shows human interaction and intent. On this basis, and it's just my opinion, I think it demonstrates that either the killer or the victim has purposefully chosen to do this. Also consider, within two minutes, the phone if activated without intent, would have to move from the #1 button being pressed down for more than a second, position; to accessing the menu, a three touch (and on this model) 'not directly sequential' process.

I'd agree with all of this. For me, however, the most telling point is that each of these calls was not completed, and the call to Meredith's UK bank was either a memory or short-code call that didn't include the international prefix or UK dialling code. For me, it's highly improbable that Meredith, who had been in Italy for six weeks at this point, would have had any trouble with the issue of international dialling. If she had indeed been lying on her bed that night, and had decided for some reason to call her UK bank, she would have quickly realised that the number stored in her memory had no international prefix, and she'd have redialled accordingly.

The only reasonable conclusion I can draw is that these numbers were dialled inadvertently. I would rule out their having been dialled by Meredith leaning on her phone while it was in her pocket or underneath her on the bed - there are, as you say, too many sequences involved to make this a possibility. I think therefore that the only explanation is that somebody pressed the necessary buttons deliberately for some reason. And I can think of no reason why that person would have been Meredith. I can only assume that the buttons were pressed by a person who was unfamiliar with the phone. And that leads me to believe that the buttons were pressed by someone attempting to tun off Meredith's phone.

 

[LondonJohn]

Frank commented on the pillow stain:

Ahhh that's very interesting. So the DNA review could start a domino effect in regard to the other evidence and witnesses. I wonder why some journalists reported that the judges had flat-out refused the other defence requests? Maybe they heard what they wanted to hear, or they simply didn't understand correctly.

In any case, I look forward to reading Peter Quennell's forthcoming article on TJMK about why the judges' ruling was so terribly bad for Knox and Sollecito

 

[katy_did]

Contradicting, it appears, what The Daily Beast reporter Barbie Nadeau reported:
"Helmen denied a request to examine a pillowcase found under Kercher’s body that had the footprint in blood that the prosecution attributed to Knox. That pillowcase also had a spot of semen that had never been testedThe defense wants the spot tested to see whose it is, but the prosecution maintains that it likely belonged to Kercher’s boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi.
The judge decided that it was not relevant in this murder."
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...-evidence-will-be-retested/?cid=hp:mainpromo1

Once again it seems that we have conflicting information!
For some reason I'll go with Mr. Sfarzo's reporting on the matter over the author of "Angel Face".
If anyone else has further information please do chime in,
Thanks, RWVBWL

Hi RW. I was trying to find out more information about this from the Italian articles, but I can't see anything in any of the ones I've read about the Judge rejecting defence requests for further tests on the pillowcase, computers and so on; it seems it's just Barbie and Andrea Vogt who are reporting this (and I think one of the other English newspaper articles?). In La Repubblica it says, "The Court instead reserved [its decision] on the other expert reports and on the testimonies of Mario Alessi and Luciano Aviello" ("La Corte si è invece riservata sulle altre perizie e sulle testimonianze di Mario Alessi e Luciano Aviello"). The Umbria article gives a summary of requests the Judge rejected, but they're mostly based on legal points: the request to have the sentence declared null, as well as nullity of the request for trial and the order for trial; and inadmissibility of Amanda's statements. It doesn't say anything about the other requests for further testing.

Frank's court reporting has always been very good, so like you I'm inclined to believe what he says on this, at least until there's more information either way.

 

[RoseMontague]

SomeAlibi appears to have either a very poor memory (not a great quality for a professional defence attorney), or a strange willingness to - shall we say - be economical with the actualite (also, I'd suggest, not a stellar quality for a professional defence attoney).

There were disco buses in Piazza Grimana on the night of Sunday October 31st 2010 - a night when he was indeed in Perugia, and the night of the traditional Halloween parties of the out-of-town discos. However, as in 2007, there were no disco buses on the night of Monday November 1st 2010. SA might also want to check his return flight ticket, since if I'm not mistaken he flew home some time on the 1st November and would therefore have been in no position to see whether or not there were disco buses there that night (there were not).

A short clarification and apology here from him would sort everything out, but somehow (based on previous form) I doubt that will be forthcoming.

This is also my understanding of the pictures SA took. This was not the corresponding night to the one in 2007 but the night before when the buses were running. This appears to be the same mistake made by the park bench gentleman. I believe this was pointed out here before as well as at PMF. SA needs to clarify this, certainly.