Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[shuttlt]

Reading back I see that I was wrong and the cartwheel thing isn't quite a joke, we really are arguing again about whether "Amanda confessed after 14 hours of interrogation" is in any way a reasonable claim. I could slit my wrists.

By the way, a few pages back I think it was mentioned that Charlie still has Gigs of data relating to the case that hasn't been shared. Do we have a reason for this? Back in April/May the reason was bandwidth and PMF offered to host it. has anything moved on?

 

[Fulcanelli]

Have you looked at the videos Katody has posted of people running up 12 foot walls?

Yes, they are entertaining, but Rudy wasn't a free runner. It is hardly a normal ability and not one one can have without considerable training and dedication. Hands up anyone here who can do what is in the video. I can show you videos of people riding BMX bikes along railings and the top of walls as well...but that wouldn't mean Rudy could do the same. But really, I think it's ridiculous to be offered as some sort of evidence that Rudy could easily make the window. Show a video of RUDY doing what is in that video and I'll be impressed. Until then, it's just more worthless fluff.

 

[Katody Matrass]

No he doesn't. Cite!

Massei motivation:

He reported of having seen the two young people until before midnight.​

Trial testimony:

Fino a prima di mezzanotte che mi ero un po’ stufato di leggere, mi ero acceso una sigaretta, guardo sempre la gente che passa, il movimento che ci sta a piazza Grimana e poi dopo non li ho più visti.​

Up to midnight before I had a little 'tired of reading, I had lit a cigarette, I always look at the people passing, the movement that is close to square Grimana and then after I have not seen again.​

DOMANDA – Esatto, quindi gli avrà dato un’occhiata quattro o cinque volte mi ha detto nel giro di un’ora o un’ora e mezza.
RISPOSTA – Quasi due ore.​

Q. - That's right, so will have had a look at four or five times he told me in an hour or an hour and a half.
ANSWER - Nearly two hours.​

So he saw them four or five times, apparently every time he looked.
Why do you think they were on piazza, shouldn't they be getting high in the cottage already according to your theory?

 

[SomeAlibi]

You're spreading untruths SomeAlibi. A person can easily read a piece of a blog and think they have the whole story.

Michelle Moore posted on an Amanda Knox Facebook page that her husband had reviewed the case and wanted to help. An Innocentisti saw the post and told Bruce among others. Bruce then contacted them and Steve's articles on Injusticeinpergia came out of it. Bruce Fisher did not go out seeking a random retired FBI agent. Steve and Michelle Moore did not lie about how they became involved in the case. Perhaps you should apologize to the three of them.

---------

Michelle Moore's Mar 16, 2010 post on Amanda Knox Facebook page can be read on this thread:

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=289513668265&id=193468818894


Michelle Celestial Easterly Moore
My husband is/actually WAS an FBI agent. He's traveled world wide. Was supervisor of counter terrorism for all of Asia. For as much as he's seen, been through, been a part of, for some reason, the young girl has really affected him. Proba...bly partially because he feels helpless in helping her. He's studied every single fact on this case. He's brilliant in my opinion. And he knows law, and he knows this is one of the biggest injustices ever.

He wants to help. It honestly feels like a death to him several times a day.
If there is ANYTHING we can do to help, we are extremely passionate about what you're going through. He needs to help you. He is a problem solver. He gets things done. He's worked with several DA's. He prosecuted Neal Buford, the guys who shot up a Jewish Community Center where young children were. He had a dream career. He retired because of an amazing job opportunity when he became 50, a year ago.

If you need him in anyway, shape, or form, I know he could help you somehow. Seriously. Not your typical agent. At one point, his actual job was to get Bin Laden. Gets things done one way or another-outside the box kinda guy. If you would like to call him, feel free to write me a personal message and I will give you his cellphone #. He would like to help you. It's actually affected our family. Part of this I think is Post tramatic stess disorder for dealing with things in the Beaureu that he had to deal with. But regardless, it's real, this pain.

We're appalled at the two cents people are putting in who really have no freakin' idea of what's going on, and the true facts. Media can be very damning. And a lack of logic and looking at the evidence. And in finding out what was true and not. Thank you for listening on this. We have not stopped praying in that we are believers and we have seen God help in situations even like these--for real.

Sincerely, michelle moore
March 16 at 12:11am

Draca

This is simply untrue. Michelle Moore posted on her own blog the following:

"It came by accident. There are so many things you hear about, and see on TV that are sooo horrid that it doesn't seem real because it's on TV. However, by some bizarre accident it (the Amanda Knox case) has become all too real to us in a freakish bizarre way and a guy named Bruce Fisher. His contacting us is how it started--now we have been given the opportunity to get involved..."

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

When this was posted on PMF, within hours, the entire blog was taken down off the internet. It then sheepisly resurfaced under another name when it became clear the caps had already been taken. This...should...tell...you...something...

Steve Moore made up his story. He makes up a lot of stuff. You should be avoiding him like the plague.

 

[SomeAlibi]

Massei motivation:

He reported of having seen the two young people until before midnight.​

Trial testimony:

Fino a prima di mezzanotte che mi ero un po’ stufato di leggere, mi ero acceso una sigaretta, guardo sempre la gente che passa, il movimento che ci sta a piazza Grimana e poi dopo non li ho più visti.​

Up to midnight before I had a little 'tired of reading, I had lit a cigarette, I always look at the people passing, the movement that is close to square Grimana and then after I have not seen again.​

DOMANDA – Esatto, quindi gli avrà dato un’occhiata quattro o cinque volte mi ha detto nel giro di un’ora o un’ora e mezza.
RISPOSTA – Quasi due ore.​

Q. - That's right, so will have had a look at four or five times he told me in an hour or an hour and a half.
ANSWER - Nearly two hours.​

So he saw them four or five times, apparently every time he looked.
Why do you think they were on piazza, shouldn't they be getting high in the cottage already according to your theory?

I don't understand either the question or the answer. Who is speaking? What does the question actually mean?

 

[Katody Matrass]

Giobbi did say that. That was De Felice.

Watch the video, don't be afraid

 

[katy_did]

Yes, they are entertaining, but Rudy wasn't a free runner. It is hardly a normal ability and not one one can have without considerable training and dedication. Hands up anyone here who can do what is in the video. I can show you videos of people riding BMX bikes along railings and the top of walls as well...but that wouldn't mean Rudy could do the same. But really, I think it's ridiculous to be offered as some sort of evidence that Rudy could easily make the window. Show a video of RUDY doing what is in that video and I'll be impressed. Until then, it's just more worthless fluff.

Are Micheli's comments 'worthless fluff' too?

In truth, this Judge holds that to enter by that window would not require a Spiderman, as claimed by the Court of Review wanting to deny this hypothesis: it would require a physically agile man, as certainly Guede was and as thieves who visit the apartments of people at nighttime certainly are.

I thought this particular mole about the 'impossible Spiderman climb' had been thoroughly whacked already. Apparently not.

Btw, I looked for Micheli's rejection of the defence's claim about the opening of the Naruto file while I was browsing the report, but couldn't find it. Any cite on that yet?

 

[Draca]

Again - How Bruce Fisher met Steve Moore

Draca

This is simply untrue. Michelle Moore posted on her own blog the following:

"It came by accident. There are so many things you hear about, and see on TV that are sooo horrid that it doesn't seem real because it's on TV. However, by some bizarre accident it (the Amanda Knox case) has become all too real to us in a freakish bizarre way and a guy named Bruce Fisher. His contacting us is how it started--now we have been given the opportunity to get involved..."

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

When this was posted on PMF, within hours, the entire blog was taken down off the internet. It then sheepisly resurfaed under another name when it became clear the caps had already been taken.

Steve Moore made up his story. He makes up a lot of stuff. You should be avoiding him like the plague.

How does Bruce Fisher contacting them AFTER she posted they wanted to help on FB make their story untrue? She says right in her comment that Steve Moore is convinced of her innocence and wants to help.

Bruce Fisher being told about her comment and contacting them is how they found a WAY to get actively involved. Her comment makes it clear that Steve Moore had already looked into the case and was convinced of Amanda Knox's innocence before Michelle offered his involvement on the FB page.

The 48hrs mystery story would have occurred before she posted that comment on the FB page.

Did you read what Michelle wrote on MAR 16, 2010. It's not possible for her to have gone back in time to write that comment. It is a DATE STAMPED comment.

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=289513668265&id=193468818894


As far as the blog, I don't blame them for taking it down after PMF started to poke at it.

 

[Katody Matrass]

I don't understand either the question or the answer. Who is speaking? What does the question actually mean?

Dottore questions, Mr Curatolo answers.



Here it goes in entirety, formatted a bit by me.

Fino a prima di mezzanotte che mi ero un po’ stufato di leggere, mi ero acceso una sigaretta, guardo sempre la gente che passa, il movimento che ci sta a piazza Grimana e poi dopo non li ho più visti.
DOMANDA – Quindi lei li ha visti poco prima di mezzanotte e...
RISPOSTA – L’ultima volta sì.
PUBBLICO MINISTERO – DOTT. MIGNINI – Quindi lei li vede poco prima di mezzanotte. Poi che fa, si addormenta?
RISPOSTA – No, dopo mi fumo una sigaretta e poi vado via.
DOMANDA – Quindi lei li ha visti sempre poco prima di mezzanotte ha detto?
RISPOSTA – Sì. Poi verso le nove e mezza – le dieci li ho notati questi due ragazzi, fino a verso a mezzanotte.
DOMANDA – Tra le 23 e dopo mezzanotte, ma lei non ha indicato qui l’orario in cui vede i ragazzi, cioè lei indica...
RISPOSTA – Tra le...
DOMANDA – Esatto, quindi gli avrà dato un’occhiata quattro o cinque volte mi ha detto nel giro di un’ora o un’ora e mezza.
RISPOSTA – Quasi due ore.
RISPOSTA – Sì, non c’era più tanta gente, poi stavo fumando una sigaretta e non c’erano più neanche loro.
DOMANDA – Si ricorda quando li ha visti lì l’ultima volta? A che ora? RISPOSTA – Prima delle undici, undici e mezza, l’ultima volta che li ho visti.
DOMANDA – Quindi si è girato e non c’erano più?
RISPOSTA – Sì, questo verso le undici e mezza, verso mezzanotte, dopo che mi sono alzato che sono partiti gli autobus.​

And here's how google sees it:

Up to midnight before I had a little 'tired of reading, I had lit a cigarette, I always look at the people passing, the movement that is close to square Grimana and then after I have not seen again.
Q. - So you saw them just before midnight e. ..
ANSWER - the last time.
Prosecutor - DR. Mignini - So you see them just before midnight. Then he does, he falls asleep?
ANSWER - No, after I smoke a cigarette and then go away.
Q. - So you always saw them shortly before midnight said that?
ANSWER - Yes Then about half past nine - ten I've noticed these two guys, until towards midnight.
Q. - Among the 23 and after midnight, but she has not stated here time he sees the kids, that means you ...
ANSWER - There are ...

(here Mignini start his work to get the time a bit shorter:)
Q. - That's right, so will have had a look at four or five times he told me in an hour or an hour and a half.
ANSWER - Nearly two hours.
ANSWER - Yes, there was a lot of people, then I was smoking a cigarette and there were no more either.

(this one Massei used:)
Q. - you remember when he saw them there the last time? What time? RESPONSE - Before eleven, eleven and a half, the last time I saw them.
Q. - Then he turned and there were no more?
ANSWER - Yes, that about eleven and a half, around midnight, after I got up that they left the bus.​

 

[Juror]

SomeAlibi,

I appreciate you posting on this board and am intrigued with your "balcony is better so break-in was staged" argument.

Let's assume it is a great argument - a position of strength for the prosecution case I think you referred to it as. Why is it then not used or even referenced by Massei in his staged break-in reasoning? The absence suggests to me that such an argument was not raised during the trial - perhaps the prosecution missed it or perhaps it is irrelevant as it really does not prove Rudy did not go through the window.

The "spiderman" argument is similar - no mention of Rudy not being able to make it up the wall and climb through the window in the Massei report which suggests such was not an issue at the trial.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

How does Bruce Fisher contacting them AFTER she posted they wanted to help on FB make their story untrue? She says right in her comment that Steve Moore is convinced of her innocence and wants to help.

Bruce Fisher being told about her comment and contacting them is how they found a WAY to get actively involved. Her comment makes it clear that Steve Moore had already looked into the case and was convinced of Amanda Knox's innocence before Michelle offered his involvement on the FB page.

The 48hrs mystery story would have occurred before she posted that comment on the FB page.

Did you read what Michelle wrote on MAR 16, 2010. It's not possible for her to have gone back in time to write that comment. It is a DATE STAMPED comment.


As far as the blog, I don't blame them for taking it down after PMF started to poke at it.

The article written by Somealibi is a perfect example of how information is continuously misrepresented. The entire article stems from one blog entry taken out of context. If Somealibi would like to apologize to Steve and Michelle, I will send him some plastic flowers as a thank you.

 

[Katody Matrass]

SomeAlibi, as for the buses, the defense obtained statements indicating that “Red Zone”, “Gradisca” and “Matrioska” were all closed on the night of Nov 1. Do you know any other discos with "busing" that could have been opened then?

 

[SomeAlibi]

SomeAlibi,

I appreciate you posting on this board and am intrigued with your "balcony is better so break-in was staged" argument.

Let's assume it is a great argument - a position of strength for the prosecution case I think you referred to it as. Why is it then not used or even referenced by Massei in his staged break-in reasoning? The absence suggests to me that such an argument was not raised during the trial - perhaps the prosecution missed it or perhaps it is irrelevant as it really does not prove Rudy did not go through the window.

The "spiderman" argument is similar - no mention of Rudy not being able to make it up the wall and climb through the window in the Massei report which suggests such was not an issue at the trial.

This is a deeply personal view which will be howled on by AK supporters here but one of the aspects of the case that is very striking to me is how much evidence was *not* used in the case against the two. It really is an embarrassment of riches evidentially. Most cases of this type turn on a fraction of the evidence in question. You can remove several planks of the case and still have a case juries would find on. This point is generally completely lost on people who support innocence in this debate.

I don't think your assertion on the Massei report is correct on the climb - Massei is quite clear on why he doesn't think it happened and spells it out.

 

[quadraginta]

Trigonometry is a complex proposition for people who mostly talk about their pet rabbits. You could lead into it gently with a discussion of Pythagoras' Theorem, perhaps?

Pet rabbits?

 

[shuttlt]

Pet rabbits?

Tell me about the rabbits

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Yes, they are entertaining, but Rudy wasn't a free runner. It is hardly a normal ability and not one one can have without considerable training and dedication. Hands up anyone here who can do what is in the video. I can show you videos of people riding BMX bikes along railings and the top of walls as well...but that wouldn't mean Rudy could do the same. But really, I think it's ridiculous to be offered as some sort of evidence that Rudy could easily make the window. Show a video of RUDY doing what is in that video and I'll be impressed. Until then, it's just more worthless fluff.

You go first. Show us a video of Amanda Knox freaking out and killing someone.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Yes, they are entertaining, but Rudy wasn't a free runner. It is hardly a normal ability and not one one can have without considerable training and dedication. Hands up anyone here who can do what is in the video. I can show you videos of people riding BMX bikes along railings and the top of walls as well...but that wouldn't mean Rudy could do the same. But really, I think it's ridiculous to be offered as some sort of evidence that Rudy could easily make the window. Show a video of RUDY doing what is in that video and I'll be impressed. Until then, it's just more worthless fluff.

Fulcanelli, you've yet again missed a point.

I posted that video to show how easy it is to climb up the wall without any kneeling on top or pulling up on fingers (as SomeAlibi thought is required) once you have a handhold.
Rudy didn't needed to wallrun.
He had a handhold (window frame) and a foothold (grating bar) to propel himself up that 1,5 m. I would do what he did easily, and I'm not a freerunner.
It's common sense that it's easily doable. That's why prosecution never thought of arguing otherwise. Arguing that negotiating a 1,5 m high obstacle is impossible would be madness.

 

[piktor]

You go first. Show us a video of Amanda Knox freaking out and killing someone.

Read the Massei Report. It is graphic and detailed.

 

[Chris C]

Rudy Guede is a convicted sex murderer. Cite the people on PMF and TJMK who are "Rudy loving". You can't. Ugly and ad hominem, once again.

Do you believe Rudy cut Meredith's throat or do you believe someone else cut her throat?(Knox or Sollecito)

Do you believe Rudy raped or sexually assaulted Meredith?

Do you believe Knox or Sollecito sexually assaulted Meredith?

Was the sexual assault before or after she died?

What time do you believe the assault on Meredith started which ended up in her Murder?

What do you think Rudy was doing at the apartment from 8:30pm till the time he left around 10:30pm?

What time do you think he took his crap, and raided the fridge for some drink?



If Rudy left at the latest 10:30pm. What time would Meredith's assault and murder have to have started for the follow known events to have taken place.

Rudy to take a crap, drink from the fridge,
Beat up Meredith, sexually assault her, stab her in the neck,
Go fetch towels from the bathroom and wash his hands,
Come back to her while she is still alive and leave the towels with her body, Rummage through her purse and then leave.

How long do you think that whole scenario took? If Rudy was the one to dump the cell phones next door to his place and left before that tower ping on the cell phone, what time do you feel the assault started?

In my personal opinion there is no doubt that the meredith's murder started way earlier than Mignini claims. There has been enough evidence to support Rudy's claim that he left before 10:30pm.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Massei and forensics

Read the Massei Report. It is graphic and detailed.

piktor,

Stefanoni was, for once, restrained in her interpretation of the mixes DNA. Yet, Massei managed to stretch beyond Stefanoni's interpretations, concluding things he had no business concluding. Massei also managed to violate a fundamental tenet of forensic genetics in his analysis of the bra clasp. Why should I believe anything in his report under these circumstances?